Regarding recent decisions and the community's attitude.

[Mikethfc]

Because people usually want to retain some control over their work. And that's probably the reason for FireLizard's disclaimer.

Does the sole reason that "he's gone" allow you to take hold of his work? I personnally don't think so.

Then it's fortunate that they're not really taking hold of his work

And it could affect me. With Jyosua's decision, it's okay to change AceNoctali or Summerwolf's script without permission in the ending generator for instance, on the simple reason that "they have been gone for a while and aren't contactable" (And I know I've had trouble contacting Ace, but he has managed to reappear several times) and I don't wish to facilitate that (especially since I'm pretty sure that, at least the former wouldn't want his work to be tampered with.)

Firelizard (eventually) allowing this sort of thing in the past was probably why they allowed it to go ahead in his absence.

[Othin]

Fan art, fan fiction, etc., all that is creative. All of it contains original ideas, even if they're based on something made by another person.

A translation? Correct me if I'm wrong, but beyond those same subjective changes that may be better or worse, I'm not seeing it as the same matter. You're making someone else's ideas and making them accessible; you're not creating something yourself.

And if someone were to redo a translation from scratch instead of working with an existing one, what would it accomplish? Would that help the original translator in any way? They'd still be aiming to convey the same ideas; they'd just be spending a whole lot more time doing it.

This is a tricky situation, but it seems to me that these are important things to consider when weighing our priorities.

[Excellen Browning]

The takedown of Marthur's works don't affect me. Do what you will.

Basically this.

[peener weener]

AHAHAHAHAHAH OH MAN.

[TurtlesAWD`]

I really don't think this is an issue of legality. From what it looks like, the whole thing is an attempt at guessing the motives of someone who hasn't been around for over five years. Considering how much time has passed, anything you can say about what they may or may not want now is going to be colored by the bias of the speaker. By removing their own creative contributions it really looks to me like Marthur is reading their own views of creative work protection into the issue. Five years is a long time, and considering that the translation in question is still being credited appropriately, and will still be available for use I really don't see a problem here. You can and should protect what you've done in the form of making sure proper credit is given, but if you're going to hold your contributions hostage to force a community to leave something you also don't control as a monument to someone who might not care, you're kind of acting like a child. As someone who has played fire emblem off and on for the past ten years, occasionally uses this website for support conversation information etc. when I need it in a game, and has never participated in this community until today, I would probably personally be willing to respect the wishes of the original translator in this case except that Marthur's attitude is incredibly off-putting as a first impression. It's exactly the kind of passive-aggressiveness that makes me not want to agree with them even if they have some good points. Because at the end of the day if you're trying to keep anyone from using this for any further purpose, you're trying to take creative control over it far more than anyone who makes an edit and gives credit to the original. You don't have any more right to that than anyone else, no matter what other media you contribute.

Plus it seems like the translator was okay with other things being used for further derivative works in another case, so it looks like those supporting this edit have a legitimately better case and this is a last ditch effort to exert some kind of fascist control over something you don't own.

Edited April 23, 2012 by TurtlesAWD`

[Agro]

A translation? Correct me if I'm wrong, but beyond those same subjective changes that may be better or worse, I'm not seeing it as the same matter. You're making someone else's ideas and making them accessible; you're not creating something yourself.

Considering we have to sit there and think of the most suitable way of conveying an idea into English, often for which there is no equivalent and can be frustrating at times, I would like to think that what I'm doing is creative to some extent. We basically pull English out of thin air, have to come up with good synonyms, expressions that don't sound retarded, etc.

Your description of "taking someone else's ideas and making them accessible; you're not creating something yourself" sounds pretty much like what fanart and fanfiction is to me, though. I mean you're taking characters, settings, character designs, histories, etc. and trying to turn it into something that you like.

Basically though I'm with the stance that if a translation can be improved, then improve it. Ultimately it's not like we own the script, though permission would be nice, out of simple courtesy to the original translators.

[Othin]

Considering we have to sit there and think of the most suitable way of conveying an idea into English, often for which there is no equivalent and can be frustrating at times, I would like to think that what I'm doing is creative to some extent. We basically pull English out of thin air, have to come up with good synonyms, expressions that don't sound retarded, etc.

Your description of "taking someone else's ideas and making them accessible; you're not creating something yourself" sounds pretty much like what fanart and fanfiction is to me, though. I mean you're taking characters, settings, character designs, histories, etc. and trying to turn it into something that you like.

Basically though I'm with the stance that if a translation can be improved, then improve it. Ultimately it's not like we own the script, though permission would be nice, out of simple courtesy to the original translators.

You're using a different definition of "accessible" than I was. Perhaps it wasn't the best word choice. But there's a clear difference here. Fan fiction uses someone else's ideas as a base and mixes them with your own ideas to make something you like. Translations take someone else's ideas and try to make it so that other people can understand what the hell they are. Those are worlds apart.

And yeah, sometimes it takes filling in blanks. I understand that it's not easy, and there can be a creative element, but ultimately, the goal should be to convey as close to the same message of the original language as possible, in a new language. The message is not the creation of the translator.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Othin

[Popo]

You're using a different definition of "accessible" than I was. Perhaps it wasn't the best word choice. But there's a clear difference here. Fan fiction uses someone else's ideas as a base and mixes them with your own ideas to make something you like. Translations take someone else's ideas and try to make it so that other people can understand what the hell they are. Those are worlds apart.

And yeah, sometimes it takes filling in blanks. I understand that it's not easy, and there can be a creative element, but ultimately, the goal should be to convey as close to the same message of the original language as possible, in a new language. The message is not the creation of the translator.

Ditto for art.

[uguu]

marthur has said she's fine with the thing that originally caused this now due to popo getting eiachu's permission so this isn't really relevant but I just wanted to bring it up because it annoyed me severely

Good idea! Let me get back to you in six years when I have a functioning knowledge of Japanese.

then maybe you fucking should do exactly that if you want to make a translation and for whatever reason can't simply edit an existing one, whether it's because none exist or because you aren't being "allowed" to do so. this is a stupid thing to get annoyed over but fucking really now

[Anouleth]

First, I have taken the FE4 ending generator page down. Originally, it was an effort to gather people and finish the FE4 translation. It proved to be fruitful, but since I want to avoid people stealing the hard work of Summerwolf, AceNoctali, and TheEnd [TheEnd only translated one line really but he was still credited ahah]), it won't be available anymore.

Wait, so you put up an ending generator without getting Summerwolf's permission to use his script?

That's kind of a dick move!

You're using a different definition of "accessible" than I was. Perhaps it wasn't the best word choice. But there's a clear difference here. Fan fiction uses someone else's ideas as a base and mixes them with your own ideas to make something you like. Translations take someone else's ideas and try to make it so that other people can understand what the hell they are. Those are worlds apart.

The word you're looking for is "transformative". Fan fiction is arguably transformative; translation is not.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Anouleth

[Popo]

marthur has said she's fine with the thing that originally caused this now due to popo getting eiachu's permission so this isn't really relevant but I just wanted to bring it up because it annoyed me severely

then maybe you fucking should do exactly that if you want to make a translation and for whatever reason can't simply edit an existing one, whether it's because none exist or because you aren't being "allowed" to do so. this is a stupid thing to get annoyed over but fucking really now

A bit late to the party, are we? This has been resolved, so piss off and take your attitude with you.

[uguu]

I know

I pointed that out in fact!!

that post was still fucking stupid and no one responded, so I wanted to make it clear in case you ever wanted to say something similar in the future

[Tangerine]

Come on kids, let's hold hands.

[Popo]

I know

I pointed that out in fact!!

that post was still fucking stupid and no one responded, so I wanted to make it clear in case you ever wanted to say something similar in the future

Please continue. Your opinion means so much to me.

[uguu]

Please continue. Your opinion means so much to me.

if you insist

[19:21:44] Sialvoty_WA_Satn why is she editing a fucking translation if she can't speak the language

[19:22:14] Sialvoty_WA_Satn is she just adding fanfiction bullshit to roy/lilina to make it cuter

[Darros]

Come on kids, let's hold hands.

Popo and Hika are adults, they can do what adults do. NO! NOT THAT!

[Original Alear]

Come on kids, let's hold hands.

but maybe I am just a dreamer :P.

YOU MAY SAY THAT SHE'S A DREAMER

BUT SHE'S NOT THE ONLY ONE

I HOPE SOMEDAY WE'LL JOIN THEM

AND THE WHOLE WORLD WILL BE AS ONE

[uguu]

Popo and Hika are adults, they can do what adults do. NO! NOT THAT!

seventeen

[Rehab]

You're legal in my state

[uguu]

are you telling me to move back to texas

don't make me

please

[Esau of Isaac]

Because people usually want to retain some control over their work. And that's probably the reason for FireLizard's disclaimer.

Does the sole reason that "he's gone" allow you to take hold of his work? I personnally don't think so.

I honestly understand that you'd want control over your work, but I don't think at the end of the day it should matter either way when no one's making money off of anything. And yeah, to some extent I do believe that if a member can't answer either way then I understand someone just using it, especially when they have others' permission that also worked on it.

And it could affect me. With Jyosua's decision, it's okay to change AceNoctali or Summerwolf's script without permission in the ending generator for instance, on the simple reason that "they have been gone for a while and aren't contactable" (And I know I've had trouble contacting Ace, but he has managed to reappear several times) and I don't wish to facilitate that (especially since I'm pretty sure that, at least the former wouldn't want his work to be tampered with.) I've also done some translation work in my days, so...

Again, then, I'll just restate: Even though I'm not much of a master of the Japanese language, I've been schooling myself in it for a couple years, and my end-goal is eventually to be a translator and interpreter. If anyone wants, they can throw me any number of lines and I'll do my absolute best to translate them.

I think that something as simple as a translation of a game should be commonly available to everyone; I've never worked with translations and I'm guessing doing it alone's impossible, but it always starts with one I guess.

A translation? Correct me if I'm wrong, but beyond those same subjective changes that may be better or worse, I'm not seeing it as the same matter. You're making someone else's ideas and making them accessible; you're not creating something yourself.

And if someone were to redo a translation from scratch instead of working with an existing one, what would it accomplish? Would that help the original translator in any way? They'd still be aiming to convey the same ideas; they'd just be spending a whole lot more time doing it.

Yes and no; conveying the simplest of ideas from one language to another is simple and agreeable to what you're saying, however conveyance of more complex sentences is absolutely a work of art. Japanese especially has several different expressions that have no direct translation into English, and require effort on a translator/interpreter's part to sufficiently describe what the the work/person is trying to say.

if you insist

[19:21:44] Sialvoty_WA_Satn why is she editing a fucking translation if she can't speak the language

[19:22:14] Sialvoty_WA_Satn is she just adding fanfiction bullshit to roy/lilina to make it cuter

So? Why does that matter at all? Hell, in such a case why don't you just think of it as a work of art on her part using artistic license?

Edited April 24, 2012 by Esau of Isaac

[Lux Aeterna]

On an interesting side note, this is only the second time I've ever seen Popo visibly upset about something since I've been on SF.

I think I'm just going to go back into the corner now, with the other people who are saying "can't we all just get along?"

[Tangerine]

Popo and Hika are adults, they can do what adults do. NO! NOT THAT!

If that's what adults do then this generation is in a lot of trouble :P.

I vote for chocolate milk break.

[Laureola]

What the State doesn't know happened can't hurt it.

[Darros]

seventeen

do you want to hold hands?