CCMRCSGWNR3:FFDH Game Thread

[Percivalé]

prims, those are ranking the roles and not the players, right? because if it's the latter, I'm going to be incredibly disappointed in you.

[Balcerzak]

Managing all of those Pesterchums on its own was a pain in the ass, having to remember to add an informed observer to each of them? Ugh. Yeah, I mean, true I never got back to you, but making a whole role out of it? ;/

[Prims]

do you think SDS is the best player ever, levity?

also if it were players then proto and kay must have their own personal clones.

gonna edit in justifications to the tier post in a moment

EDIT: ohhh, just realized you were talking about the people playing the roles in this game. kay, ITP serial killer was not even in this game because I died instead of strawman, so no, I'm just tiering the roles themselves

Edited June 6, 2012 by Prims

[Haze]

I didn't actually expect you to do that, just wanted sheet access really, and every time I went to nag you on irc about it ,you weren't there!

But really you were just the Kaoz role of the game, don't worry about it.

[Percivalé]

@prims: sorry then >: I kind of hate player-ranking tier lists almost as much as I hate town leaders and hidden players.

[Prims]

I will save an actual "quality of play" tier list for my anon game's postgame player evaluation. Because I hate list posts that do it any other way, even postgame.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Prims

[Percivalé]

ilu prims, i'm a jackass >:

great game though, guys <3 it was really fun and I'm sorry I was a little scarce for the first two day phases! (strawman, you seem to get third-party roles more often now 0: )

But uh, why was there a Tangerine/SDS role, but not an Eclipse role?

Also STOP KILLING ME EARLY JESUS CHRIST even though I was actually trying to get killed this game but stilllll

[Excellen Browning]

Also STOP KILLING ME EARLY JESUS CHRIST even though I was actually trying to get killed this game but stilllll

Game thrower :<

also tell me how terribly I played.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Daigoji Excellen

[Elieson]

I was awful T.T

[eclipse]

Looks like me being a dumbass and shooting Strawman won it for the town. WHEE~!

Do I get the award for Worst Usage of SMS?

[Prims]

worst usage of sms was probably "Rein Is The Doctor Shoot Him If You Want To Win" (which was my idea and therefore my fault, not at all strawman's), but only because of how bal reacted

Edited June 6, 2012 by Prims

[Balcerzak]

I was desperate, and trying to make up for a game of prior mistakes. I wasn't playing kingmaker on purpose. I'm sorry I caused you to lose, but that was a side effect, and not the goal.

[eclipse]

well done Eclipse

You're welcome, Blitz. now go get that scumdar recalibrated

[riariadne]

wow thanks for the award named after me

Other than that I found your trolling of me super inadequate

2/10

[Scarlet]

1. Scum lynch doctor is very powerful, permanent role debuff is very powerful, mass roleblock is pretty broken if the mafia still gets the full five players. Giving the mafia all of that was not very fair if you ask me.

2. So why does 3rd party flip as town again

I don't think the town could realistically have won this had the mafia tried a bit harder.

This setup was pretty anti-town if you ask me. 10/5/1 with a weak town, an OP mafia and the 3rd party being anti-town isn't what I'd call "balanced".

[Scarlet]

That said, I did enjoy the game, but man.

[Haze]

Mafia had nothing to protect them from the Wizard, Fruit, Radar and Fanboy, aside from the Ninja at least, and that was all the ninja had.

Also third party was anti-everyone, and had a significant chance of not coming into play, the lovers had a warning in their pm, it was ignored, and they put themselves front and centre trying to lead the town, rather than trying to avoid attention.

[Haze]

Oh and Paperblade made the setup, yell at him.

[Psych]

Can I receive the Fuq U I'm Magic Award? I would like to thank the academy and magic because wizards are magic and there's magic inside everyone of use. Believe in yourself.

~Inspiration~

[BBM]

TBH, Prims probably would have gotten killed N1 regardless. In a way, it was actually good that they took charge, because it made the mafia use their mass roleblock to ensure that their kill on Prims went through, which they probably would have otherwise saved.

[Haze]

SFMM 2 Postgame.

Brad did most of the work on this game's setup, I just helped... sort of. I did silly flavour.

My thoughts on the factions are as followed:

Town

Quite literally threw themselves to the wolves. Lucked out, I personally don't believe they should have won because the first thing they did was claim to the wolves, and that's not even starting on that disgrace that was the day 1 lynch.

Mafia

Started strong, got organized quickly, then waffled on making fakeclaims and activity just kind of plummeted, they didn't do a spectacular job appearing town but they made proper use of their abilities and should at least be praised for that.

Lovers

Mr. Strawman, Mr. Strawman, just one question - How does it feel to have the game handed to you on a silver platter? HA HA! Outdated Postgame ramblings!

I now pass you over to Brad.

Dear, people upset about how they or others were portrayed in this game,

Every role was a caricature. We were not picking on you.

[spoiler=Roles]

Town

Prims/StSS:

Prims played well, as usual. He had the misfortune of claiming Mason on Day 1 and drawing the mafia's ire. He was actually a Lover, which if you closely checked his claim and the flip you'll notice there were slight modifications he made to the ability line, since he thought he was the type of Lover where if one dies both die. However, they were actually Psych Lovers, so that turning out setting StSS up for a pretty easy ride throughout the early and middle game.

Personally, I don't agree with his belief that the mafia would be less likely to target him if he had claimed Lover since a cleared town leader is a cleared town leader, and Prims is still Prims. Obviously he had no way of knowing they could pierce protection for a night, but eh.

StSS actually correctly guessed that if one of them died the other would become a wolf, but Prims brushed him off with it seeming out of character, which made me laugh like a maniac. StSS played well, especially with being able to still talk to Prims. Overall he still played pretty well and moled like a boss.

Also

[16:12] <Prims> strawman and i should earn an honorary award for unintentional roleplaying

[16:12] <Prims> our pm was mostly him acting confused and me telling him what to do

Role thoughts: The Kay/Proto pair were the first roles for the game that made it into the final product (in fact maybe the first roles in general). They were not always intended to go wolf, but after we scrapped the cult we decided to make them a neutral pair because I came up with some funny flavor of Kay blaming everyone for Proto dying. Haze wanted them to turn into different roles, so Kay was a standard Serial Killer with a BPV to try to ward off the mafia night kills, while StSS was what you saw. StSS had less kills per night, but the hook is an overall more useful ability and not having the extra kill every night helped to not broadcast "HEY THERE'S A WOLF," which was pretty convenient.

Additionally, in case of a tiebreaker the wolves would always come out ahead. For example, if on Night 6 everyone had been primed when eclipse shot StSS.

Haze - Prims is Prims, disregarded the warning in his role pm, and attempted to play town leader, this lead to his death and the rise of the Strawwolf, to his credit, he made full use of his ability to coordinate with Strawman in an attempt to ensure Strawdomination, only to have it all fall apart on the eve of their victory, shame.

As for Strawman, well what is there to say? Strawman is obvtown.

(A++)

Levity:

Levity was killed for being Levity and leading the town. However, the Ghost role had been designed precisely because people kept killing her Night 1. This was actually pretty amusing since Levity was easily the worst kill to make. She continued to be active and played well throughout the game.

Role thoughts: This role was designed just for Bizz. I was originally just going to give her the StSS role but decided that there was a good chance she would protect someone else instead of herself since it was probably a just better move, so we came up with this. RD has a tendency to die early and then deadtalk (see: Schoolboy Mafia, not to be confused with Schoolgirl) a lot, so this role was a jab at him. It was basically a tree stump that only triggered on death, so I'm not sure if it was too good or not.

Haze - Levity tried her best all game to get herself killed, for a while it didn't look like it would happen, much to my surprise, but then it did, and she proved a constant thorn in the side of the mafia. I also got a stroke of inspiration mid-game and gave her another fun little ability to haunt other players at night. It had no effect whatsoever, and I didn't quite get the reactions I'd hoped for, but it was still fun.

Slayer:

Fuck you. I know it sucks that people misread your role that badly and I felt bad about it since I never intended that to happen, but you overreacted. You had like 1 vote on you compared to Kaoz at like 6 when you got yourself modkilled. If you're mad, go do something else for a while.

Role thoughts: This role was originally Psych, but Haze wanted it to be someone else since "Haha Psych doesn't know when to shut up" was already done. So we decided to go with a town leader-ish person. However, MAJOR PROPONENTS OF OC PAPERBLADE AND LIFE were already scum, so we went with Snike because he is more recent than Spoon (and if Spoon did it he would have to be scum, but Spoon only tries to lead factions that he isn't a member of).

Again, the activated ability didn't do anything, and was only added when I was looking for a Snike quote and decided to play that up as a joke.

Haze - Slayer pls go.

Raymond:

After being policy downgraded Night 0, Raymond was killed because even though there were people cleaner than him, he was perceived as a better player despite the mafia knowing nothing about his role. Overall, Raymond played well, although I'm not sure what was up with him being such an asshole during Day 1.

Role thoughts: Tracker is a cool info role that is pretty balanced and we wanted another "haha this person doesn't play hereexcept this time they actually don't" role. There isn't really much more to say. I wanted another info role and this is a good one.

Haze - You know I don't think I've ever been called a troll as much as Raymond called me one this game. Amongst other things like sadistic, bastard mod, etc. He is very funny man. Played decently, and was namekilled.

Anouleth/Excellen:

Anouleth, in usual style, didn't do anything, got bored, and subbed out but not after being forced to publicly claim because people thought his apathy was scummy. Also he flagrantly ignored his post restriction because he wanted to mislead people, which made Ether cry. Llen subbed in and did things right, dying like the very next day because he didn't want Marth's edit to screw things up. This was probably my fault for being wishy washy but eh.

Role thoughts: This was mostly added as a countermeasure to the lynchguard, since I was worried the town would try to lynch the lynchguarded person over and over. I guess in retrospect that meant this should have JUST been a daykill without the "phase end" bit and not transform into a Hunter afterwards, but eh.

Haze - Anouleth, D-, see me after class. Excellen, B+, good work.

Psych:

Okay, Psych was implied to be an info role on Day 1 by Prims, and posted his role PM on Day 2. He died Night 4. The mafia attempted to downgrade him Night 2, sure, but they were hooked and just kind of gave up after that the following night for some reason.

Anyway, Psych, despite not knowing when to be quiet (protip: stop claiming on Day 2), is as always a goldmine of good oneliners (much like the beloved mikethfc, may you live forever).

Role thoughts: I had seen this role in another game where it was pretty balanced and since some people dislike Cop decided to use it instead. This role requires being able to actually talk to people to get information to work well, which gave it bonus points over cop although it was potentially more powerful.

Haze - Brad wanted this in because it forces the town cop to actually think, it would also avoid a repeat of the cop sweep that occured in SFMM1, and I think it's a rather neat alternative. Psych played okay, and honestly lived far longer than he should have.

Rein:

Rein was cleared Night 0 by both Psych and Marth which was nice since he was the Doctor. Unfortunately, he was heavily implied to be clear, but despite that did not draw mafia fire until they were specifically told he was the Doctor, which makes him pretty lucky.

Role thoughts: This was a standard doctor that could self protect by idling (or his action otherwise failing). I'm not sure if it was too strong, but the BPV bit never came up.

Haze - Rein didn't actually post all that much... and didn't really stop any kills... so I'm not really sure what to say about him.

Iris:

Iris played well despite her inactivity. She was under some suspicion for claiming miller and governor being a good mafia role, especially after the lynch failed, but she persevered and was not lynched because the mafia were scummy scum scum.

Role thoughts: "This role is copypasta"

REIN THE MILLER GOVERNOR was the first successful troll in SFMM1 and caused much grief, and we almost put this into the game pasted word for word.

Haze - Did better than Kevin did.

Blitz:

Blitz was a bit off this game, unfortunately, although he didn't listen to OndoreStrawman's lies and went along with eclipse's plan, so it was aaaaaaalright. Blitz, along with Iris, were placed into the group of people primed because, according to Prims, they were never going to be nightkilled, but wouldn't ever be lynched either.

Role thoughts: This role was originally a regular Martyr but I didn't want a repeat of SFMM1 in which Raymond the Cop got to go "GOOD LUCK I'M BEHIND SEVEN DOCTORS" after outing on like Day 2. So I changed it something that is more like a weaker Hooker than a weaker Doctor, but didn't change the downgrade to some sort of gimped jailer or something because I am amazing.

Haze - Sorry I honestly can't think of anything Blitz actually did his game before endgame.

eclipse:

eclipse successfully determined that StSS was the wolf early in Night 6 (I don't know if she was entertaining the notion beforehand) and managed to convince Blitz to not interrupt her, which turned out to be a game changing move because otherwise the lovers would have won WHICH SUCKS BECAUSE IT TOTALLY RUINED THE FLAVOR AND POSTGAME WE WERE PLANNING.

Role thoughts: This role was originally an activist vigilante in that they got one bullet and another whenever there was a failed lynch but Haze misinterpreted it so we ran with that instead (after upping the required # to 3 from 2). It also had the added bonus of determining if people were lying about the user their role was based on but the mafia PMs were setup to not have to worry about that unless they really wanted to.

Also, fun fact: In one of the simulations I was running, a similar scenario was gotten to (mafia eliminated, wolf, and 4 town alive), and Ether, who I had asked to test, said he would lynch the wolf since it seemed most likely to him.

Haze - Oh boy it's Clipsey, became increasingly frustrated as she didn't understand the namechanges, seemed to think her role was worthless right up until her transformation, and then misunderstood her role, much amusement was had.

Also, Brad is full of shit, this is one of the roles I came up with on account of it being Prims, Brad and I just had different definitions of "Activist Vigilante", and he misunderstood me, thinking it was supposed to gain shots from mislynches as opposed to being forced to shoot every night.

Marth:

Marth is apparently good at nothing but okay at everything because this is the second time he has pulled JoAT in about 3 games. Wisely, he chose to use his inspect Night 0, and was pretty good about using his abilities. I question the safeguard on StSS, but I guess it was to stop him from being frozen.

Role thoughts: I wanted the inspect to be here since a lot of people think it's too strong but I think it's fine to have in limited amounts. The upgrade was to give the town a weapon against the mafia in case Life got too lucky, and the Watch/Safeguard were filler that I felt were somewhat strong. I guess the Safeguard could/should have been a Jailer or Hook or something instead since I really don't like the role, but eh.

Marth - Made good use of his powers(except the safeguard), made it apparent that he was town quite early on, overall good play, nothing amazing or gamechanging, but he gets points for being the sole survivor.

MAFIA

The mafia roles were mostly designed around the idea of stopping the town from doing anything too powerful (with the masshook and freeze) while also just screwing with the town in general (the lynchguard and downgrader).

Their fakeclaims were Martyr, Mayor, Rogue, Amnesiac, Lynchproof. They would also learn that Weapons and eclipse were not in the game if they asked.

The lynchproof was kind of intended to be taken by whoever was receiving the lynchguard protection, unfortunately that fell apart immediately.

Kay:

Kay's big mistake was claiming cop to be gutsy, since as far as I know she wasn't really under serious suspicion (although some people felt her posts were somewhat empty) until Prims got all the claims, saw "Hey this is a lot of info roles I bet Kay is faking" and had StSS lynch her.

Also Kay supposedly followed her post restriction. but she listens to weird music so I don't actually know for sure.

Role: This role switched from Town Mayor to Mafia Town Mayor to Town Mayor in development. It's pretty straightforward. It's an inspect, it's mafia. People think inspects are strong, but mafia roles should be stronger than the average town role so I don't care if the mafia has a full inspect.

Haze - You know it retrospect the mafia's safeclaims were shit. That's really all I have to say, as I'm pretty sure that's why Kay claimed her real role.

Proto/Kaoz:

Proto was busy and had to sub out, although not after getting under suspicion for being inactive (this is not a reason) and making bad, obvious posts (this is a reason). Then Kaoz said in and while he was more active, continued to do say obvious things and quickly became tied with Shinori for suspect #1. Fortunately, the power of the Lynchguard combined with the mafia piling up votes on whoever was protected saved both him and Shinori, which was hilarious. They tried this many more times to no avail since the town kind of stopped caring about Shinori, which I actually did not expect especially since he claimed Amnesiac and not Lynchproof.

For some reason, both users in this player slot decided to argue that "I should be able to do this because you never said I couldn't." Proto tried to argue that he should be able to protect himself since I didn't say he couldn't, even though none of the roles said they couldn't self target (including the StSS role) and none of them could, if I recall correctly. I can see your point but... eh.

Kaoz, on the other hand, was a bit more annoying. He wanted to send an SMS to Bizz every day to get her modkilled repeatedly, ending the town's ability to lynch for an "autowin." I pointed him at the "No loopholes" rule and he decided to argue. Okay, dude, I appreciate clever things as much as you do, but that was stupid. If it was less totally gamebreaking I may have allowed it, but it was and there was a good chance it wouldn't have worked under the rules anyway since you are targeting a bloody dead person. Your job as mafia is not to outsmart the hosts, it's to outsmart the town. Hosts are not perfect, which is why the loophole rule is there in the first place. This probably annoyed me more than anything in this game other than the Slayer suicide.

Role thoughts: A few people thought this role was overpowered, and I agree. Had Kaoz been lynched Day 1 this game would have gone much differently--the mafia probably wouldn't have dared go after the lovers for fear of hitting a doctor, which would've let Prims take over the game in the town's favor. Basically it goes back to my dislike of roles that hold a disproportionate amount of power (such as the Mafia JoAT in Golden Sun)

That should have been on the Iris role probably, since that was probably the weakest (the town only had a Tracker and a Watcher ability on the JoAT). I don't think the lynchguard ability was overpowered (I don't think anyone argued that it was since it was basically a Doctor but for lynches, but eh), but I'm not sure if I like it. It felt stronger to me than a Doctor, just because it's easier for the mafia to manipulate lynches at their guarded buddy due to their obvious influence by being able to vote (see: Day 1) than the town can manipulate the mafia into hitting the Doctor's target.

The mass hook was fine, IMO. I like one shot pierce abilities and while this was stronger than one it didn't feel backbreaking, although the town was understandably pissed.

Also SDS postgame.

Haze - I don't really have anything to add, other than that Kaoz's survival of Day 1 was both immensely sad and hilarious at the same time.

Shinori:

Shinori was pretty active overall. He was really scummy early on but people started thinking he was town after the lynch failed (for some reason)

The most interesting thing of note he did was try to find a third party, although I'm not sure if he was legitimate about that or just fucking around to mislead people. In either case, him outing himself wasn't as bad as it first appeared because when Kaoz was lynched it was sure to incriminate him.

Role thoughts: This role was added at the last second because I was concerned that the numbers favored the town too much, so I added what I considered a fairly weak mafia role (Ninja with only a Tracker and one-shot use of Watcher itg). In retrospect it should have had the mass hook but the SDS flavor was damn worth it.

Haze - He seemed to be hit with Eclipse's trust aura, inexplicably determining her to be third party, to the point of saying he was sure of it in the mafia topic, and attempting to tell her what to do. This behaviour persisted even after she screwed the mafia over and exposed the messages in the thread. So I'm really not sure what was going on there.

Elieson:

Elieson stayed hidden the longest, as most people shrugged him off as noobtown due to actions such as trying to get Prims lynched. However, as the game dragged on people realized he was not, in fact, noobtown, and in fact, evil scum!

Elieson was pretty talkative in the mafia PM and used his role well (although I think the freezing to "clear" a member of the mafia would have been a better idea N0 instead of when Bal was already a dead man walking).

Haze - Played well for her first (?) game, lots of questions early on so she could get a handle on things, and even turned her newb status to her advantage as an excuse for mistakes she made, allowing her to fly under the radar. Good show.

Balcerzak:

MOMENTS BEFORE GAME IS CALLED

[6:57:31 PM] Brad: we should res Bal and then modkill him

[6:58:28 PM] Haze: Haha

[6:58:32 PM] Haze: No

[6:58:33 PM] Haze: res Bal

[6:58:39 PM] Haze: only to have his head blown up by Strawman

[6:58:41 PM] Brad: oh

[6:58:41 PM] Brad: that works

[6:58:54 PM] Haze: Wait

[6:58:55 PM] Haze: shit

[6:58:56 PM] Haze: I know

[6:58:57 PM] Haze: Is Bal on?

[6:59:03 PM] Haze: When I call intermission

[6:59:06 PM] Haze: Tell him to post the whole

[6:59:08 PM] Brad: yes

[6:59:12 PM] Haze: "There can only be one mafia god, and that is I!"

[6:59:14 PM] Brad: he already did

[6:59:16 PM] Haze: thing

[6:59:18 PM] Haze: Oh

[6:59:29 PM] Brad: that's why I brought it up

[6:59:59 PM] Brad: Rein, 5 seconds ago

[7:00:00 PM] Brad: [18:59] <timaeusTestified> what

Role thoughts: This role was originally something else (which I will not divulge because it might be in SFMM3, coming soon to a theatre near you), but it was changed. I'm not sure if this role was a great idea, since some of the changes were kind of a stretch and the usefulness of changes varied wildly (then again I guess that's due to the strength of roles also varying). For example, at one point in development he turned the StSS role into a BPV instead of just a Doctor, but hitting that and then the Blitz role could be devastating for the town. However, they didn't hit anyone *too* useful although they certainly tried. Hitting Psych potentially could have delayed the deaths of Bal and Elieson which probably would have tipped the game in the favor of the wolves.

Haze - I really wish Bal had been more active, as I feel his lack of inactivity significantly hurt the mafia's organization. He also managed to hand the town the win right at the end, earning himself Town MVP.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Haze

[Scarlet]

Mafia had nothing to protect them from the Wizard

Mass roleblock.

And even then, that, the JoAT and maybe the doc were about the only good roles the town had. Emphasis on "good", not exactly "powerful".

Fruit,

Ninja is a pretty specific counter to that if you ask me

Also, role downgrader, which is exactly what happened.

Radar

The non-vig part of which was nothing they'd need protection from anyway

and Fanboy

Which wasn't guaranteed to hit mafia by any stretch of the imagination, and in fact could at best be considered an unreliable one-shot "counter" to the lynch doctor.

Also third party was anti-everyone

Being anti-everyone includes being anti-town by definition

and had a significant chance of not coming into play,

The chance of neither of the lovers dying throughout all of the game in a 12:5 ratio is very low, actually. Had they just been regular lovers, I probably wouldn't even have seen that much of an issue with the game.

the lovers had a warning in their pm, it was ignored, and they put themselves front and centre trying to lead the town, rather than trying to avoid attention.

Considering the odds, I might have done the same in their position.

Oh and Paperblade made the setup, yell at him.

I'm not yelling at anyone in particular, or even "yelling" at anyone at all, I'm just pointing out the flaws I saw with the balance of this game.

In particular, consider how the town never mislynched (well, once if you count Slayer's modkill as a mislynch) and still nearly lost.

[Paperblade]

The game was designed such that if the lovers died instantly it would be against the town, and the later they died the better things would be since it means less people dying/primed (all the way up to if they never died the game would be balanced against the mafia)

Consider, for a moment, how things would have gone had Kaoz been lynched Day 1

Edited June 6, 2012 by Paperblade

[Psych]

I ACTUALLY DID GOOD THIS TIME

HA

[Psych]

Also Paper I would like a Psych's greatest One Liners mafia some time.

Or at least the ones from this one pointed out.