Rate the Unit Day 7: Tanya

[Elieson]

Scrolls have no impact on ratings...?

Wow, as if I needed another reason why the Rate Your Unit debacle is a load of shit

As if I needed another reason to prevent the inevitable "DAY X: X UNIT WITH SCROLLS IS BEST UNIT IN GAME"

"DAY Y: Y UNIT WITH SCROLLS IS BEST UNIT IN GAME"

"DAY Z: Z UNIT WITH SCROLLS IS BEST UNIT IN GAME"

"DAY Fail: Fail UNIT WITH SCROLLS IS BEST UNIT IN GAME"

[General Banzai]

As if I needed another reason to prevent the inevitable "DAY X: X UNIT WITH SCROLLS IS BEST UNIT IN GAME"

"DAY Y: Y UNIT WITH SCROLLS IS BEST UNIT IN GAME"

"DAY Z: Z UNIT WITH SCROLLS IS BEST UNIT IN GAME"

"DAY Fail: Fail UNIT WITH SCROLLS IS BEST UNIT IN GAME"

Congrats, you've discovered: The Truth

In Thracia base stats, class, and availability mean everything, not raw stats

Unless of course SSS but whatev

[bottlegnomes]

Congrats, you've discovered: The Truth

In Thracia base stats, class, and availability mean everything, not raw stats

Unless of course SSS but whatev

Or just actually playing the game and not dicking around and scroll spamming. Not every character is going to have access to every scroll he or she wants, so how do we decide which scrolls go to whom for the rating?

[Epic Fail]

Banzai, scroll spamming means nothing because you can stick them on any character (except Galzus) and make them great (or at least competent). If we did count scroll abuse, every character would get massively increased ratings. The three traits you mentioned aren't everything, but if you have crappy bases and a bad class (or bad growths and availability, etc.) that generally constitutes a bad unit. I know that if I scroll abuse Marty I can get a complete monster, but the fact that he's going to struggle without them makes him a poor unit. Whereas Dagda may have awful growths, but his bases carry him for so damn long that he is one of the better units (arguably) in the game.

[Baldrick]

Or just actually playing the game and not dicking around and scroll spamming. Not every character is going to have access to every scroll he or she wants, so how do we decide which scrolls go to whom for the rating?

Wouldn't it be based on need, return and availability, like other resources?

Tanya is alright, but never really excels in anything. Her strength is awful, and won't improve in a hurry. Bowlock means she can't capture either. But it's not all bad; she has all game to work on her bow rank, and there's not much demand for the best bows. She has a recriprocal support with Othin, which reinforces her ability as a dodge-tank, for what it's worth. And she's good at inside chapters, which often have enemies you can't reach in melee.

4/10

[MacLovin]

Chip when forced/free.

Otherwise benched, since made of wet toilet paper.

2/10

[Jave]

Even if we considered scrolls there's no way Marty would get a 10/10.

But I will save my reasoning for the actual Marty topic.

[PuffPuff]

3/10 (2.5 + 0.5 bias points because I somewhat like her)

Bowlock, bleh stats. Enough said. She could be worse though.

At least she has good Pursuit Coefficient that allows her to crit often on her second strikes. =)

-----

Bow lock. But she does have better Str growth than Ronan and can be good with or without scrolls. Plus her Pursuit Coefficient allows her to crit often after every first strike makes her one of the most useful bow units in the game with only Roberto being better. Plus her weapon rank goes up faster than Roberto's. =)

4/10

[bottlegnomes]

Wouldn't it be based on need, return and availability, like other resources?

But then you get into the whole debate over which unit benefits most and that causes all kinds of other shit.

[dondon151]

because scrolls aren't supposed to affect ratings.

This is patently false; scrolls with different benefits exist at different times, so they tend to fix certain shortcomings better than others; in addition, there are circumstances where assigning a scroll to a certain unit is optimal (best example I can think of right now is giving the Sety scroll to Asvel to ensure a 100% spd growth for his first 5 level ups so that he can double all enemies without Grafcalibur).

[Baldrick]

But then you get into the whole debate over which unit benefits most and that causes all kinds of other shit.

But RTU threads are not meant to be an exact science. As long as there's reasonable justification, absolutist players can deal with it.

[bottlegnomes]

But RTU threads are not meant to be an exact science. As long as there's reasonable justification, absolutist players can deal with it.

So you'd advocate me saying Ralph is better than Galzus because I can load him up with scrolls and have him cap everything while Galzus will always have his same stats?

[Baldrick]

Yes. Galzus is kind of useless; he has max stats, but any competent players will have at least half a dozen units with max stats at this point, and for the rest of the game, staffers are doing most of the important stuff anyway. If you could judge people on their inventory, though.

Ralph might be mediocre, but he has the time to contribute something significant. Even without scrolls, I'd say Ralph > Galzus. Max stats are overrated; equipment, class and skills will inevitably determine a unit's performance. I'd say it's a safe bet the highest ranked units will be Fin, Othin, Safy, Karin, Asvel, maybe Fergus/Lara?

Edited May 23, 2012 by Baldrick

[bottlegnomes]

That's not necessarily so. Saying Ralph is better than Galzus is kind of like saying Janaff is better than Tibarn in RD. You can dump a bunch of bexp on him and have an amazing unit, even if he does have to deal with transforming. Now Janaff is better than Tibarn, but not because he can get better stats at 40 if we give him a bunch of favoritism.

I think you're underestimating Galzus. He's not around much, but he's damn good when he is around. Maxed offensive stats, two great skills, and very good durability. He probably won't get rated very high, but he's definitely worth using while he is around.

Or another example, Ronan can be better than Tanya because I can give him a bunch of strength and def boosting scrolls and have him beat her in stats and have access to continue and a move star. But doing this would be unfair to her, and also be unlikely since there are other units that want the same scrolls so Ronan won't see that much benefit unless he gets exclusive access, which is unfair. Also, we could give Tanya the same and have her max her stats more easily than Ronan.

Also, I'm willing to be Dean is going to be pretty high. He's basically a flying Fin (including the broken as fuck lance) that isn't as good statistically indoors, though he has auto A swords.

Edited May 23, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[cheetah7071]

Tanya isn't nearly as difficult to use as people are making out. She comes early, gets an exp boost from her class, and has a near monopoly on the good bows (unless you decide to use like Selphina or Xavier for some reason). She's not going to do anything in an efficiency context, but that isn't the only way to play.

5/10 +1 bias = 6/10

[Swordsalmon]

She supports Othin and Dagdar, and cap-rams Speed. But she sure isn't a bro like her father. 5/10

[Othin]

Scrolls exist; they're part of the game. It's absurd to say that every unit will always have every scroll they want, but it's just as absurd to say that none of them will ever have scrolls. The only reasonable answer is to look at scrolls as they're actually used, which is sometimes but not never, depending on what is practical - just like stat boosters.

And of course even the sometimes can be enough to make units much more usable than they would be in other games, and that's part of how FE5 works. To ignore that is insanity.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Othin

[Anouleth]

Congrats, you've discovered: The Truth

In Thracia base stats, class, and availability mean everything, not raw stats

It's nice that you admit that Marty is horrible.

Unless of course SSS but whatev

Unless you actually apply a standard to playing the game, nothing is useful.

Scrolls exist; they're part of the game. It's absurd to say that every unit will always have every scroll they want, but it's just as absurd to say that none of them will ever have scrolls. The only reasonable answer is to look at scrolls as they're actually used, which is sometimes but not never, depending on what is practical - just like stat boosters.

And of course even the sometimes can be enough to make units much more usable than they would be in other games, and that's part of how FE5 works. To ignore that is insanity.

We can ignore whatever we like for the purposes of discussion. We ignore recruitment costs and starting equipment and warpskipping and seizing for the purposes of discussion, don't we?

and also elite mode in this instance

Edited May 23, 2012 by Anouleth

[Othin]

We can ignore whatever we like for the purposes of discussion. We ignore recruitment costs and starting equipment and warpskipping and seizing for the purposes of discussion, don't we?

Starting equipment doesn't affect choices made when using the unit. You're not going to use Galzus more because he joins with a Master Axe - at least outside of it potentially making him more useful within Ch24 itself, which should be taken into account.

Seizing is similar but different. No matter how good or bad Leaf is, he has to seize. So it's not like you could choose not to have him seize, so there is no decision to make there, either.

I can't say I see the sense in ignoring recruitment costs. And for this discussion, apparently we're paying attention to the recruitment costs that actually matter anyway.

Warpskipping is the only one you list that makes sense to selectively ignore because it turns the entire game on its head, ripping out massive amounts of content and regular gameplay and replacing them with an entirely different playstyle. Scrolls do no such thing.

As for Elite Mode, I think we can agree that it would hardly make sense to try to rate units based on two mutually exclusive difficulty levels at once, so we must pick one. In fact, I'm sure we agree about that, based on our past discussions.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Othin

[cheetah7071]

These rating topics always allow the poster to rate assuming any playstyle they want--be that efficient, turtly, or warpskippy. If someone wants tlo rate assume SSS-rank then they should be allowed to do so.

[Anouleth]

Starting equipment doesn't affect choices made when using the unit. You're not going to use Galzus more because he joins with a Master Axe - at least outside of it potentially making him more useful within Ch24 itself, which should be taken into account.

Seizing is similar but different. No matter how good or bad Leaf is, he has to seize. So it's not like you could choose not to have him seize, so there is no decision to make there, either.

I can't say I see the sense in ignoring recruitment costs. And for this discussion, apparently we're paying attention to the recruitment costs that actually matter anyway.

Warpskipping is the only one you list that makes sense to selectively ignore because it turns the entire game on its head, ripping out massive amounts of content and regular gameplay and replacing them with an entirely different playstyle. Scrolls do no such thing.

Irrelevant.

Warp staves exist; they're part of the game. It's absurd to say that every unit will get Warped wherever they want, but it's just as absurd to say that none of them will ever get Warped. The only reasonable answer is to look at scrolls as they're actually used, which is sometimes but not never, depending on what is practical - just like scrolls. Whether you like it or not.

As for Elite Mode, I think we can agree that it would hardly make sense to try to rate units based on two mutually exclusive difficulty levels at once, so we must pick one. In fact, I'm sure we agree about that, based on our past discussions.

I don't have a problem with choosing to ignore any of those things. It's you who is complaining about certain options being ignored. Elite Mode is part of the game. According to you, that means we can't ignore it. I think we can ignore whatever we want.

[Psych]

If I need to clarify this for the last time, these ratings are being judged on a Normal, Non-Elite, Warpskip-free, Semi-Efficient runthrough sans scrolls. It should be judged like the other games, not some LTC 1 turn per map where we buff all the units and cap ram all day and then judge on weapon ranks and movement and staff rank.

[Baldrick]

If I need to clarify this for the last time, these ratings are being judged on a Normal, Non-Elite, Warpskip-free, Semi-Efficient runthrough sans scrolls. It should be judged like the other games, not some LTC 1 turn per map where we buff all the units and cap ram all day and then judge on weapon ranks and movement and staff rank.

Can we assume reasonable scroll usage? You aren't going to throw my Olwen vote out because I say she can hold on to Odo for a few levels to minimize her chance of missing? If so, I agree.

That's not necessarily so. Saying Ralph is better than Galzus is kind of like saying Janaff is better than Tibarn in RD. You can dump a bunch of bexp on him and have an amazing unit, even if he does have to deal with transforming. Now Janaff is better than Tibarn, but not because he can get better stats at 40 if we give him a bunch of favoritism.

That's a bad example. Tibarn has a decisive advantage over Janaff (Formshift), actually has better stats than most of your party, (whereas Galzus won't be any stronger than Mareeta/Carrion/Shiva/Fergus/Othin/Asvel/Sara etc.) and the circumstances to take advantage of it (two outdoor chapters, each with about 50 enemies each; if you do 24x, you might kill 50 enemies total from the time Galzus joins). A better comparison could be Rhys v Sephiran.

I think you're underestimating Galzus.  He's not around much, but he's damn good when he is around.  Maxed offensive stats, two great skills, and very good durability.  He probably won't get rated very high, but he's definitely worth using while he is around.

Hell yeah, Galzus' ass-kicking quoitent is through the roof! ... But his time to kick ass is very low. If he could do something special, like Sety, you might have an excuse to have him solo the rest. But the simple fact is he won't be doing significantly better than most of your endgame team.

Or another example, Ronan can be better than Tanya because I can give him a bunch of strength and def boosting scrolls and have him beat her in stats and have access to continue and a move star.

I could give Heather every statbooster I get, give her all my BEXP, and spend all my money on forged knives for her in order to get her to beat Sothe. You don't see anyone in the FE10 RTU threads calling for a blanket ban on statboosters, BEXP, or forges.

But doing this would be unfair to her, and also be unlikely since there are other units that want the same scrolls so Ronan won't see that much benefit unless he gets exclusive access, which is unfair.

Which is why reasoning like that can and should be thrown out.

Also, we could give Tanya the same and have her max her stats more easily than Ronan.

Exactly. Scrolls won't change the rankings when there's a clear advantage to one unit.

Also, I'm willing to be Dean is going to be pretty high. He's basically a flying Fin (including the broken as fuck lance) that isn't as good statistically indoors, though he has auto A swords.

I knew I forgot someone! By the way, Dean's stats are basically the same as Ralph's. But he has a hax class, a hax prf weapon, battery ranks. Which is exactly my point; bases aren't everything in Thracia.

Irrelevant.

Warp staves exist; they're part of the game. It's absurd to say that every unit will get Warped wherever they want, but it's just as absurd to say that none of them will ever get Warped. The only reasonable answer is to look at scrolls as they're actually used, which is sometimes but not never, depending on what is practical - just like scrolls. Whether you like it or not.

Think of it this way. Warpskip = Scroll abuse. Occasional warp use = Scrolls as a fringe benefit.

Banning scroll use altogether is like saying you can't use Warp at all; not even, e.g. to use Warp to have Olwen talk to Reinhardt so Cyas will leave, to access the Secret Shop, in Final to move your units to the centre after that Dark Warlord has been defeated, etc. There's a difference between using Warp when it's useful and Warpskipping, yes? Just as there's a difference between strategic use of Scrolls, and Scroll abuse.

[Psych]

Think of it this way. Warpskip = Scroll abuse. Occasional warp use = Scrolls as a fringe benefit.

Banning scroll use altogether is like saying you can't use Warp at all; not even, e.g. to use Warp to have Olwen talk to Reinhardt so Cyas will leave, to access the Secret Shop, in Final to move your units to the centre after that Dark Warlord has been defeated, etc. There's a difference between using Warp when it's useful and Warpskipping, yes? Just as there's a difference between strategic use of Scrolls, and Scroll abuse.

I'm not saying no scrolls, but they shouldn't affect people since everyone has the same caps and everyone can use them and everyone can just cap ram all day.

This quote is basically what I'm trying to say.