Balancing FE8

[Ema Skye]

Hey everyone. I'm making a patch involving balancing Sacred Stones, and I'd like some ideas from the community on how to do so.

The project will involve fixing characters to make them solid characters, but not perfect. Changes can be anything from changes to bases, growths, classes and anything else you have for your ideas. I'm open to anything, because without community involvement, I can't make this patch as awesome as it could be.

Some ideas of mine:

-No more trainees

-Weaken Seth's growths to make him still awesome in early game, but not so hot in the late game

-Yay more difficulty.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Lucina

[Defeatist Elitist]

Hey everyone. I'm making a patch involving balancing Sacred Stones, and I'd like some ideas from the community on how to do so.

The project will involve fixing characters to make them solid characters, but not perfect. Changes can be anything from changes to bases, growths, classes and anything else you have for your ideas. I'm open to anything, because without community involvement, I can't make this patch as awesome as it could be.

Some ideas of mine:

-No more trainees

-Weaken Seth's growths to make him still awesome in early game, but not so hot in the late game

The only way to balance Seth even remotely is to absolutely destroy his bases basically. Take him down to like a level 15 Cavalier at most or something.

[Exiledwolf]

Hey everyone. I'm making a patch involving balancing Sacred Stones, and I'd like some ideas from the community on how to do so.

The project will involve fixing characters to make them solid characters, but not perfect. Changes can be anything from changes to bases, growths, classes and anything else you have for your ideas. I'm open to anything, because without community involvement, I can't make this patch as awesome as it could be.

Some ideas of mine:

-No more trainees

-Weaken Seth's growths to make him still awesome in early game, but not so hot in the late game

What do you mean by no more trainees? As in cut them out completely or give them a new starting class. I think that trainees should stay the same, except up there bases by the time they join, and perhaps upping their growths a but wouldnt hurt.

Suggestion would be to have Franz's growths mimics like lowen from fe 7 and forde and kyles like kent and sain.

Make enemies have enough con to rid their weapons without AS loss. Also, up the bases of some of the monsters you fight.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Exiledwolf

[Lord Raven]

The only way to balance Seth even remotely is to absolutely destroy his bases basically. Take him down to like a level 15 Cavalier at most or something.

You tried that and it still didn't even work because he had a Silver Lance

Taking away his A Lances is a good trick, giving him like D Lances E Swords with no starting swords would be a good way of nerfing him

Enemies hitting harder isn't too bad, especially if you have higher enemy density. Gatrie worked in early FE9 MM because he got tinked by everything (or it did miniscule damage to him whereas Oscar/Boyd/Ike couldn't take much and there are times where you'd want more than just Titania walling enemies). The beauty of this is that it gives Gilliam more use.

Bearing in mind, Gatrie's problems in FE9 MM stem from the fact that he leaves and rejoins, since he'd be somewhat solid if he stayed all throughout

Edited May 29, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Ema Skye]

The only way to balance Seth even remotely is to absolutely destroy his bases basically. Take him down to like a level 15 Cavalier at most or something.

If the game's harder, than I don't think such a hard nerf is justified. Good idea though.

What do you mean by no more trainees? As in cut them out completely or give them a new starting class. I think that trainees should stay the same, except up there bases by the time they join, and perhaps upping their growths a but wouldnt hurt.

Suggestion would be to have Franz's growths mimics like lowen from fe 7 and forde and kyles like kent and sain.

Make enemies have enough con to rid their weapons without AS loss. Also, up the bases of some of the monsters you fight.

Giving them a new class. I'm thinking Shaman!Ewan, Cav!Amelia and Pirate!Ross.

That's an interesting idea with Franz growths. I was thinking about him being a jack of all trades, master of none. Giving him average growths in strength, skill and speed so that he'll be able to do better damage than Forde, but not as much as Kyle, while also being faster than Kyle, while slower than Forde. I like your idea though.

Monsters will be given a pretty decent size bonus to their bases (especially the Revenants). Generic growths will be increased. That alone should increase the difficulty.

You tried that and it still didn't even work because he had a Silver Lance

Taking away his A Lances is a good trick, giving him like D Lances E Swords with no starting swords would be a good way of nerfing him

Enemies hitting harder isn't too bad, especially if you have higher enemy density. Gatrie worked in early FE9 MM because he got tinked by everything (or it did miniscule damage to him whereas Oscar/Boyd/Ike couldn't take much and there are times where you'd want more than just Titania walling enemies). The beauty of this is that it gives Gilliam more use.

Bearing in mind, Gatrie's problems in FE9 MM stem from the fact that he leaves and rejoins, since he'd be somewhat solid if he stayed all throughout

That seems like a solid idea for Seth. Maybe have him start with a Steel Lance so that he'd be weighed down by it. Though if Seth was demoted, I'd probably promote Gilliam (auto Great Knight would do wonders for him. He could probably take a role of FE11 H2 Jeigan. He's an older character, so it makes sense to me to go that route.

Yeah, the difficulty of this game will be increased. My goal is for something like FE9 Hard Mode, but that's debatable if you think that's too easy.

Thanks for all the advice. Notes taken.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Lucina

[Rewjeo]

Balancing this game entirely will be basically impossible on the grounds of availability unless you make growth rates basically nonexistent so you have leave behind your earlier units in favor of new ones. Assuming you want to allow us to keep basically one team throughout the whole thing, I'll come up with some quick ideas. Some of them will probably suck. Deal with it. I'm coming up with them on the spot.

Try making Franz and Seth the cavalier duo and nerf them from there as necessary, maybe.

Eirika's probably pretty good.

Try making Gilliam a soldier with a fair but more SPD and then give it some promotion options, maybe?

Vanessa and Moulder are probably good as is, considering that it's hard to nerf their utility.

Maybe nerf Garcia a tiny bit and then make Ross a level 1 Pirate/Fighter

Give Neimi kickass offense. This may need to change somewhat in light of other earlygame units getting nerfed.

Either buff Colm's combat or make it harder to replace him via keys.

Artur and Lute are probably good. A slight nerf might not be a terrible idea for Artur. Lute needs either a buff or a nerf depending on playstyle.

Natasha's in the same boat as Moulder.

Either hurt Joshua's earlygame or his lategame. He's not great right now, but with so many earlygame units getting nerfed, he could become pretty awesome if he isn't touched.

Ephraim could use a pretty substantial nerf. Maybe take Ephraim and his knights all back to level 1 (with bases to match) and then weaken 5x enemies to match them?

Bump Amelia up to at least a level 1 cavalier. You may need to go farther from there.

Tana's probably in a pretty good spot. This may change after you make changes to others, though.

Looking at Gerik's group, I'm not entirely sure what to do with Innes. He might be good. As for Gerik and Marisa... maybe drop Gerik's level some and then bump Marisa up to level 10? I don't feel particularly good about those solutions, but at a glance even a 10/1 Marisa would only have as much STR as a level 2-4 Gerik, although she would have +1 MOV, +15 CRIT, and like +5 SPD compared to him.

Dozla's probably pretty good. Hard to say where he'd be after you edit other units.

Give L'arachel at least the opportunity to insta-promote.

I'm not entirely sure what to do about Saleh... I'd look at decreasing weapon levels (especially staves) as well as lowering durability or maybe screwing over his growths so he isn't very viable by endgame. I like my prepromo sages, so I'm not to keen to think of ways to make them not awesome.

Ewan should probably be brought up to at least nearing promotion to tier 2. His 10/1/0 stats are still pretty bad for that point in time.

Cormag could just use an all around nerf. Lower everything some.

Rennac's probably in a similar position to Colm.

Nerf Duessel. Nerf almost as much as Seth.

Knoll... bump up instantaneously to Summoner perhaps with a good staff rank?

Myrrh's probably decent as is.

Syrene would probably like a slight buff in the combat area, but the general nerfing of characters in this game might make her a solid combatant as she is now.

Again, some of these ideas are probably terrible. Just throwing them out there.

[Lord Raven]

Come up with ideas all you want, but you need multiple playtests with multiple different people to make balance achievable

[Exiledwolf]

I agree that Duessal should get a nerf, especially if playing in Ephraims route. I would suggest lowering him to a level 1 great knight and low his bases accordingly.

Gerik and Cormag also needs a nerf. I agree with lowing thur bases but I suggest keeping them at base level or 2 less.

If you plan in making Ross start out as a pirate, then perhaps Garcia should get a slight increase in bases, just to distinguish him as Ross.'s teacher.

Saleh should also have a decrease I'm weapons rank. Also Innes

[dondon151]

First of all, this is going to degenerate into a shouting match between people with different ideas. I can just feel it.

Second, keep in mind that you don't need to absolutely balance everything. Not only is that impossible, but there's not really a point in having everyone be balanced. The most important thing is that you want to make units fun to use. Some of the units that are already pretty good (Saleh, Duessel, Cormag) probably don't actually need to be nerfed (I guess Duessel could use a bit less base def, though). In fact, I think Seth and Franz are the only units that actually deserve to be made significantly worse at all, and Franz would only be in the case if Seth was made a lot worse.

Remember that big changes make a difference, and small changes don't matter at all. Even tweaking base stats slightly makes significantly more difference than up to a 10% change in growths. You can try giving units new niches that they never had before - one thing I see too many people suggest are uniform gains to all areas when there are more drastic and interesting tweaks available.

Edited May 29, 2012 by dondon151

[Lord Raven]

no dondon i hate u and all ideas that u stand for

[Ema Skye]

@Rewjeo: Woah, lots of ideas. Thanks.

Dealing with ideas for availability is kinda tricky. Right now, I'm not too worried about it. Thanks for bringing it up though.

Regarding Franz and Seth, that also seems like it could work. Make Seth the Cain and Franz the Abel. If Amelia becomes a Cavalier, then Forde and Kyle could get new classes (5 cavs in a game with 30-something characters is overkill imo).

Eirika is probably going to get a durability buff. She's already solid.

Vanessa is staying pretty much unchanged. She's already where I'd like the rest of the characters to land.

All unpromoted healers are going to join with a higher level (Lv.8-ish for Moulder, Lv.10 for Natasha and Lv.15 for L'arachel, or something like that). Getting them close to promoting is a pain.

I'm thinking Garcia/Ross could be the Bord/Cord of this game, with Garcia being raw power and Ross having less power but higher speed.

Neimi/Innes are getting excellent player phase offense to offset their lack of player phase. Especially Innes (since Neimi can go Ranger).

Tana's mostly fine. Maybe give her something to offset her lack of inventory in Ephraim mode, if that's possible without too much tweaking.

Worst case scenario, Gerik becomes a pre-premote. He joins at Lv.10, which may become underlevelled in time. Marissa is definitely getting a level buff (maybe Lv.12 ish).

Everyone not mentioned is up in the air as of right now. Thanks for your suggestions.

@Lord Raven: That's gonna come later. Right now I need to know what kind of changes to make before finding testers.

@dondon: Sound advice. Thanks. I don't plan on giving too many nerfs out, moreso buffing the cast that can't compete with the better units.

Thanks again everyone.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Lucina

[CrashGordon94]

If you're concerned with Cav variety, maybe make Amelia an Armor Knight? Not the easiest spot for her, I know but it WOULD be something different.

[whase]

- go Jeigan on Seth

- improve trainee growths to make them cap everything even before 10/20/20, keep bases the same for that's how they're meant to be, and that's cool.

- lower paladin caps a bit, or improve all others.

- buff up the rapier, and make Eirika usable that way.

- slightly higher growths/bases for Neimi.

- if possible, thieves get experience for opening chests/doors too.

- if possible, when the not chosen lord returns in the desert, have them leveled up by a few.

[Hawk King]

The only way to balance Seth is lower his bases stats by 2-3 across the board. Then increase his growths to give him long term use.

Franz needs Lowen like growths.

Gilliam wants +2 LV and +1 all base stats. and an Axereaver.

Dozla needs a +2 to STR, SKL, SPD, and LUC. maybe not Str but definitely the other 3.

Syrene could use +5 HP, +1-2 STR, +2 SKL, +2 SPD,

Make Kyle and Forde's growths more different. They are too similar.

All trainees +5-10% growths. They are growth units but there total growths are among the lowest in the game.

[MacLovin]

Makes Seths bases close to fe11 Jeigans.

+1 spd to Gilliam.

fe6 Noahs Growths to Franz

Make Forde have Franz vanilla fe8 Growths.

Give Kyle an Iron Lance, instead of steel.

[Nova]

I'd think about balancing the classes as well. When promoting Artur, Moulder and Natasha, there's next to nothing that would keep you from making them bishops. The effectiveness against monsters is too strong. Though I don't know how to change that.

I also think assassins are too weak compared to swordmasters.

[MacLovin]

Assassins have lockpick utility.....

But, good point.

Also, quite a few folks Go Sage! Moulder/Artur and Valk!Natz.

Slayer is good, but Sage!Moulder becomes Semi-Saleh later on!.

9doubling with elf.)

[Hawk King]

Yeah, I have always considered Valkyrie to be better than Bishop for Natasha.

Oh yeah, L'Arachel needs a +2-4 LV increase with stats raised accordingly, and give her at least C rank for staves. D is too low at that point in the game.

Marisa needs like 4 LVs + 2 to all stats and C rank in swords.

[Blitz]

give Knoll some luck, he could REALLY use some

[Exiledwolf]

The only way to balance Seth is lower his bases stats by 2-3 across the board. Then increase his growths to give him long term use.

Franz needs Lowen like growths.

Gilliam wants +2 LV and +1 all base stats. and an Axereaver.

Dozla needs a +2 to STR, SKL, SPD, and LUC. maybe not Str but definitely the other 3.

Syrene could use +5 HP, +1-2 STR, +2 SKL, +2 SPD,

Make Kyle and Forde's growths more different. They are too similar.

All trainees +5-10% growths. They are growth units but there total growths are among the lowest in the game.

Seth doesn't need an increase in growths since he's supposed to serve as the jeigan of the game. Give him lower base stats, but have him mimic fe6 marcus's growths. I would suggest keeping his hp and skill growth the same while lowering everything else.

Agree on Franz, his growth should mimic lowen.

Yeah, give Gil a body in base speed, but perhaps just 1 increase in level so he can grow more? Also, I don't see the significance of him having the axereaver?

For Dozla, maybe +3 in speed, while +1 in every other stat except strength.

Maybe up his growths by a bit?

Syrene definetly needs an increase in base stats seeing how late she comes. Just for kicks, why not yet having est like growths?

Fordee and Kyle also need a switch in their growth rates, but I don't know how. Any help?

And the trainees should get an increase in growths, but perhaps leo their luck growth the same?

[Nova]

Assassins have lockpick utility.....

But that can't compare to the critbonus.

And with Rennac around, I wouldn't use one of my trained units to open chests.

Yeah, I have always considered Valkyrie to be better than Bishop for Natasha.

I prefer the Valkyrie for Natasha as well, cause I value Move more than anything (and they have style). The thing with the bishop is not that much of a problem in her case. But Moulder and Artur can't promote to valkyries. And I don't see why they should become sages. Shortly after they probably promote, nearly all chapters are filled with monsters.

Another thing about the classes: What about paladin and great knight? I usually use the great knight because of individual taste. But I've heard from most people I know that they prefer the paladin. Would they need a balancing?

[Exiledwolf]

If anything, perhaps great knight wouldn't need that -1 movement when promoting from cavalier.

[Anouleth]

The problem is that giving Great Knights 7 move expands the already significant advantage they have over Generals. I guess that making Paladin and Great Knight balanced is more important than making General and Great Knight balanced, though, because you have more cavaliers.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Anouleth

[Refa]

The problem is that giving Great Knights 7 move expands the already significant advantage they have over Generals. I guess that making Paladin and Great Knight balanced is more important than making General and Great Knight balanced, though, because you have more cavaliers.

You could always give armourknights/generals 5/6 move although people don't seem to like that solution.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Refa

[Exiledwolf]

Well, if it is to attempt to balance between General and Great knight, I agree raising their movement might work. We can also raise some if the generalls cap like more strength, def, and res than GK, but perhaps 2 less speed than GK cap