Brides. . . really?

[Saria]

Just look at her hair in the original design. She might not have worn an elaborate dress like this one in Sacred Stones (she never changed clothes at all outside of promotion, just like everyone else), but it doesn't seem like something that would be out of character for her (although I agree that it's clearly odd as battle gear) considering how elaborate her hair was. Eirika is a better choice for this class than Lyn and Micaiah anyway (although it could still somewhat fit the later one). If you're talking about the supposed support role, I still don't see the problem. She has bows and probably some other offensive weapon, not just a staff. They included the staff in her official art likely because it isn't an actual weapon, so it fits better with the image they were going for with that art.

I can understand opposing the concept of the class in general (fighting in a frilly dress, the bride name), but I don't get the people saying that it's specifically bad for Eirika's character.

Out of any of the actual female lord characters, it probably fits Eirika the most (though Elincia might have also been a good fit). I think more people would have been upset for very good reason if Lyn had been shuttled into this class, and while Micaiah could fit if you think in terms of her ending with Sothe, then I suppose she would fit, but not as well.

I don't see anything wrong with the bride class being a support class though. Yes, in Sacred Stones Eirika was a frontline fighter, but that was more out of necessity on her part. The class looks like it takes some ques from the Princess class at least (with the staves and a physical weapon counterpart), and Eirika really does seem the type that'd want to know healing magic to help her friends and brother. So I don't get why the actual class is unfitting for Eirika outside of the poor choice in naming.

[Anouleth]

Out of any of the actual female lord characters, it probably fits Eirika the most (though Elincia might have also been a good fit). I think more people would have been upset for very good reason if Lyn had been shuttled into this class, and while Micaiah could fit if you think in terms of her ending with Sothe, then I suppose she would fit, but not as well.

I don't see anything wrong with the bride class being a support class though. Yes, in Sacred Stones Eirika was a frontline fighter, but that was more out of necessity on her part. The class looks like it takes some ques from the Princess class at least (with the staves and a physical weapon counterpart), and Eirika really does seem the type that'd want to know healing magic to help her friends and brother. So I don't get why the actual class is unfitting for Eirika outside of the poor choice in naming.

It's more that the man gets a cool kickass frontline combat class while the women gets to heal and wear a pretty dress.

Only problem with that is canonically, Ephraim becomes the King of Renais, so unless you support the twincest, Eirika isn't the Queen.

Eirika's character Ending is Restoration Queen. It kind of makes sense for her to be Queen alongside Ephraim, since they are twins and all.

[Bryan]

Eirika's character Ending is Restoration Queen. It kind of makes sense for her to be Queen alongside Ephraim, since they are twins and all.

Well, that could just be a title.

But the two of them could have been joint rulers, it happens all the time in fiction, ala Narnia.

[Othin]

It's more that the man gets a cool kickass frontline combat class while the women gets to heal and wear a pretty dress.

Demon Fighter sounds cooler than it is. It's kinda slow and moves weirdly.

Well, that could just be a title.

But the two of them could have been joint rulers, it happens all the time in fiction, ala Narnia.

A title is sufficient justification for a class name, I think.

[Sunwoo]

It's more that the man gets a cool kickass frontline combat class while the women gets to heal and wear a pretty dress.

This sentence sums up my feelings exactly.

[LegendaryHero0]

It's more that the man gets a cool kickass frontline combat class while the women gets to heal and wear a pretty dress.

I wonder if the artist behind each design is given full creative license or not. That is to say, how much of the redesign was done by the respective artists of each character? I think that's important to ask, because it seems like, so far, all the female characters have had female artists and all the male characters have had male artists.

If I were to guess, based off of the artists that I know and their works before, it seems like all of the DLC characters (barring Marth) were redesigned AND drawn solely by the chosen artists. That has different implications, if true.

Well, that could just be a title.

But the two of them could have been joint rulers, it happens all the time in fiction, ala Narnia.

In some of her endings, she becomes the Queen of other nations, so it's relatively canon. But yeah, like Othin said, a title would be enough justification.

[StrategistPockystix]

so, Queen would've been a better Class for her overall.

and before anyone asks how another female, non-royal character can become a Queen; just remember that they can be a bride without being married in game either.

[Only My Unit]

I would totally stick the Queen title on Elincia if it somehow magically spawned Amiti and gave her the awesome pegasus with matching armor.

[Original Alear]

I would totally stick the Queen title on Elincia if it somehow magically spawned Amiti and gave her the awesome pegasus with matching armor.

She would become a shitty endgame recurring midboss with axess to non light/dark magic, staves.

[Momo]

I wonder if the artist behind each design is given full creative license or not. That is to say, how much of the redesign was done by the respective artists of each character? I think that's important to ask, because it seems like, so far, all the female characters have had female artists and all the male characters have had male artists.

If I were to guess, based off of the artists that I know and their works before, it seems like all of the DLC characters (barring Marth) were redesigned AND drawn solely by the chosen artists. That has different implications, if true.

I dunno, maybe in the style they were drawn, but the designs themselves are mostly just the class they're assigned to. The only ones that go off the rails are Elincia and sort of Celice. They were probably given a few instructions (Don't give Ephraim long hair, Roy has a bandana, etc) and left them to their own devices.

[Only My Unit]

Why the Inverse rage?

[Anouleth]

She would become a shitty endgame recurring midboss with axess to non light/dark magic, staves.

But she can wield the Gaebolg!

[Original Alear]

But she can wield the Gaebolg!

No I think it would be the gungnir - it's major Dain not Noba?

Not sure because I didn't see it myself.

[Only My Unit]

Ack, my noob was showing.

[Saria]

It's more that the man gets a cool kickass frontline combat class while the women gets to heal and wear a pretty dress.

Thinking of it theoretically, you can't win wars without support type fighters, ie. combat medics, archers/ranged shooters, etc. Yes, in the broader perspective it is misogynistic to make the new female-restricted class a support class when the male class was a frontline unit, but there isn't anything wrong with having a support class.

I'm pretty sure most people can't beat an FE game without using a healer (possible on easier modes, but it's not going to happen in harder modes face it). We don't even know yet if this is a solely support class anyways, it might still come with swords or lances.

Just don't forget the Eirika's class isn't just restricted to healing, regardless if she gets a third weapon, she DOES have bows which makes her a physical unit, impractical dress and all. And you can't say her having bows is just shoving her into a strictly female role, this game has Viole after all.

[Striped Shirt]

It's more that the man gets a cool kickass frontline combat class while the women gets to heal and wear a pretty dress.

I'm curious, would your opinion change at all if Bride ends up having access to swords, a good amount of physical strength and solid front-line potential? Would it change if they simply changed the name to some other reason to wear a fancy white dress? Because those would be some pretty superficial objections.

Honestly, I feel the only legitimate problem here is how hard the outfit stretches ones suspension of disbelief. Any perceived social injustice at the title of bride or it not being some generic variation of a melee fighter is a result of your own personal biases and nothing more, I really doubt the designers were deliberately trying to segregate the sexes here.

so, Queen would've been a better Class for her overall.

and before anyone asks how another female, non-royal character can become a Queen; just remember that they can be a bride without being married in game either.

I would've thought that if you're taking the title bride literally enough to find objectionable, you'd have just as much of a problem with queen. They're both stupid, and at least all the female characters have the potential to be brides, while only one or two characters can be called a Queen by any meaning of the word. Except maybe Libera, of the drag variety. If you're going to argue changing the name, change it to something that all characters can fit comfortably into. Without changing the specs of the class, I would've liked if they went the "Maiden" route and toned down the dress from a fanciful wedding gown to an equally pretty but more earthy shrine maiden dealie.

Actually, now that I think about it, that would've been a great class and I'm a little disappointed that it doesn't exist.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Striped Shirt

[Anouleth]

I'm curious, would your opinion change at all if Bride ends up having access to swords, a good amount of physical strength and solid front-line potential?

No, because my problem is with the concept of the class and not the gameplay performance, as I have told you several times. Are you stupid?

Would it change if they simply changed the name to some other reason to wear a fancy white dress? Because those would be some pretty superficial objections.

Small details are important.

Honestly, I feel the only legitimate problem here is how hard the outfit stretches ones suspension of disbelief.

And that's how you feel. I feel that giving the women the class "Bride" is being sexist. They had perfect freedom to make whatever they wanted. And what they wanted was a woman wearing a wedding gown.

Any perceived social injustice at the title of bride or it not being some generic variation of a melee fighter is a result of your own personal biases and nothing more, I really doubt the designers were deliberately trying to segregate the sexes here.

Yeah, it's just a coincidence that it's the women that get the frilly dresses and get to be Brides while the men get armor and get to be Demon Fighters.

I would've thought that if you're taking the title bride literally enough to find objectionable, you'd have just as much of a problem with queen. They're both stupid, and at least all the female characters have the potential to be brides, while only one or two characters can be called a Queen by any meaning of the word, except maybe Libera, of the drag variety.

Well, my point is that I don't have problem with characters in the past being Queens when it's appropiate. I don't think it would really fit as a DLC class that anyone can use.

If you're going to argue changing the name, change it to something that all characters can fit comfortably into. Without changing the specs of the class, I would've liked if they went the "Maiden" route and toned down the dress from a fanciful wedding gown to an equally pretty but more earthy shrine maiden dealie.

I think that would be okay. Or even Shaman, a la FE4.

[Saria]

No, because my problem is with the concept of the class and not the gameplay performance, as I have told you several times. Are you stupid?

Small details are important.

And that's how you feel. I feel that giving the women the class "Bride" is being sexist. They had perfect freedom to make whatever they wanted. And what they wanted was a woman wearing a wedding gown.

Yeah, it's just a coincidence that it's the women that get the frilly dresses and get to be Brides while the men get armor and get to be Demon Fighters.

Well, my point is that I don't have problem with characters in the past being Queens when it's appropiate. I don't think it would really fit as a DLC class that anyone can use.

I think that would be okay. Or even Shaman, a la FE4.

Insulting people doesn't help prove your point.

The dress isn't the real issue here, don't make it out to be so horrible of a thing. You also have to remember that this game is supposed to take in a mock medieval era, where women were barely ever fighters and always wore dresses, with how rich you are causing them to be more elaborate. Her dress is still a ridiculous thing to be tromping around in on a battlefield, but just because she's wearing a dress doesn't make it sexist. While impractical, it's only so bad because of the implications the name gives off.

Also I think you're looking past the fact that the Bride class isn't just a healing class. Eirika has bows for sure, she's going to be able to fight for herself, provided the player doesn't move her unwisely and get her stuck in a cluster of enemies.

[StrategistPockystix]

Insulting people doesn't help prove your point.

The dress isn't the real issue here, don't make it out to be so horrible of a thing. You also have to remember that this game is supposed to take in a mock medieval era, where women were barely ever fighters and always wore dresses, with how rich you are causing them to be more elaborate. Her dress is still a ridiculous thing to be tromping around in on a battlefield, but just because she's wearing a dress doesn't make it sexist. While impractical, it's only so bad because of the implications the name gives off.

Also I think you're looking past the fact that the Bride class isn't just a healing class. Eirika has bows for sure, she's going to be able to fight for herself, provided the player doesn't move her unwisely and get her stuck in a cluster of enemies.

while I don't agree with anouleth calling striped shirt stupid; s/he has been sort of not getting what people have been saying on this board for almost it's entire short run. At this point, he's probably done trying to explain it for the 20th time.

as for the "women usually wore only dresses", Eirika wore a pretty comfortable outfit before, and we've had female Knights (even the ones in this game lol). And yet somehow, that can of armor that's made for defense seems a much more sensible thing to bring into battle, even if you're a "lady". Hell, what was wrong with her being in a set of armor? Even Elincia knew to take off the royal gown lol

Being a bride implies nothing but being married. It implies marriage, which is optional, and does not reflect even the slightest of what a class can or may be able to do in any combat situation. While it was stated before that the classes of Fighter, Soldier, etc. are basically used to define a type of melee combatant, brides have never been used for much other than implying you just got hitched. . . and after that you're a wife, which; if I remember correctly, many of the female fire emblem characters were wives and retained their own class and title. . .

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, this isn't sexism, so much as it is stupidity.

Edited June 2, 2012 by StrategistPockystix

[Saria]

while I don't agree with anouleth calling striped shirt stupid; s/he has been sort of not getting what people have been saying on this board for almost it's entire short run.

as for the "women usually wore only dresses", Eirika wore a pretty comfortable outfit before, and we've have female Knights (even the ones in this game lol). And yet somehow, that can of armor that's made for defense seems a much more sensible thing to bring into battle, even if you're a "lady".

Being a bride implies nothing but being married. It implies marriage, which is optional, and does not reflect even the slightest of what a class can or may be able to do in any combat situation. While it was stated before that the classes of Fighter, Soldier, etc. are basically used to define a type of melee combatant, brides have never been used for much other than implying you just got hitched. . . and after that you're a wife, which; if I remember correctly, many of the female fire emblem characters were wives and retained their own class and title. . .

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, this isn't sexism, so much as it is stupidity.

Yes I agree, I've been saying her dress is very impractical for a battlefield, I was just stressing that the dress itself isn't sexist. Even if they didn't bring her back in her old outfit, an updated version would have been much more practical than a ball gown style wedding dress.

Exactly, they had a different title after getting married, but Bride is going to be something that sticks for a class name. It's the implication of the name; As other people have stated, it's very unfair that a female class got a name such as Bride, which has been a stigma for a long time of what a woman should be (instead of being career oriented and focusing on herself) and there isn't a male counterpart like a Groom.

I appreciate your views, but a lot of people are going to still see sexism in this, myself included. While I don't think it's the end of the world, I really only believe it's the name and the implications it brings that even make Eirika's DLC any form of sexist or problematic.

[Thor Odinson]

because it seems like, so far, all the female characters have had female artists and all the male characters have had male artists.

I don't think the FE12 artist (who did Eirika's art here) is female. At least the kanji for the name seemed masculine and I think a few posts in ChinaFE said he was a guy.

And the male characters haven't all had male artists, either. Senri Kita (FE9/10) did Marth, and she's a woman, and the FE8 Artist whom I can't think of the name off of the top of my head but it's one of those -ko names which is most likely female did Leaf.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Fat Bunny

[Saria]

And the male characters haven't all had male artists, either. Senri Kita (FE9/10) did Marth, and she's a woman, and the FE8 Artist whom I can't think of the name off of the top of my head but it's one of those -ko names which is most likely female did Leaf.

Sachiko Wada is the name I believe

[Thor Odinson]

Something like that. Definitely female unless parents are trolling, then. Sachiko's a pretty common female name, I believe.

[Shun One]

I dunno, maybe in the style they were drawn, but the designs themselves are mostly just the class they're assigned to. The only ones that go off the rails are Elincia and sort of Celice. They were probably given a few instructions (Don't give Ephraim long hair, Roy has a bandana, etc) and left them to their own devices.

I would argue that Alm is the worst offender in this case. His art vaguely resembles the Demon Fighter class compared to the rest of the characters.

[Paperblade]

It's more that the man gets a cool kickass frontline combat class while the women gets to heal and wear a pretty dress.

what