My new Branching Classes Tree

[Jotari]

So about half a year ago I made this thread.

http://serenesforest...opic=29874&st=0

Which showed my ideas for a branching class system like in the Sacred Stones and now Kakusei. Since then Kakusei was released in Japan and information about it's classes system came out I've modified my own branching class trees to include the new classes (also played Fire Emblem 4 and took a little bit more from that). So here they are. I've made two pictures which are the same only one shows all the classes in one diagram while the other repeats classes where some of the branching gets a bit complicated keeping similar classes grouped together a bit more. So anyway I got loads of feed back on my last thread and would love to hear what people think of it now. I also have a few questions about certain things such as advantages and disadvantages for some classes but I'd like to get the initial feed back first. So don't be shy, whether it's good or bad, tell me what you think.

And here it is again with everything linked together, which turned out nicer than I thought it would. Also if you didn't figure it out from the key the coloured dots are the method of promoting the classes.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Jotari

[cyron]

how does a the hunter class use knives/daggers on horse back

edit: never mind i misread the chart

Edited June 11, 2012 by Cyron

[Parrhesia]

I tried to make head or tail of that thing, and now my eyes hurt.

[BBM]

I think that you should adopt a promotion system similar to FE10's. Everyone can promote through both level-ups and one universal promotion item (Master Seal/Crown). That being said, I think the class tree itself is quite good. I just don't really see the difference between Corsairs and Berserkers, other than different promotion methods. Plus, other weapons have only 1 mono-weapon class, but Axes have two?

[Jotari]

I think that you should adopt a promotion system similar to FE10's. Everyone can promote through both level-ups and one universal promotion item (Master Seal/Crown). That being said, I think the class tree itself is quite good. I just don't really see the difference between Corsairs and Berserkers, other than different promotion methods. Plus, other weapons have only 1 mono-weapon class, but Axes have two?

Corsairs are a promotion of Pirates giving them good movement over mountains and ocean tiles which is there main gimmick.

[Parrhesia]

That will /never/ stand against a flat 15 crit.

[cyron]

why not give 1 of the mono axe classes thief skills

Edited June 11, 2012 by Cyron

[I don't play for turns]

This is really long... Still, good job. I like that you added the ninja class.

[MacLovin]

My eyes hurt.

I'm not kidding

Also, Corsairs are just Pirates relabled.

[Agro]

There seem to be a lot of classes that fill essentially the exact same purpose...

[Jimmy_Smith]

I'm also done something like this, but with more crossover between 2nd-3rd tier class.(And it's a real headache to make)

About some name, I don't like griffon and wyvern class to have the name "lord" in them.

Lord should have been for main character only.

Maybe change them to Griffon/Wyvern Master instead?

Edited June 11, 2012 by Jimmy_Smith

[Jotari]

I'm also done something like this, but with more crossover between 2nd-3rd tier class.(And it's a real headache to make)

About some name, I don't like griffon and wyvern class to have the name "lord" in them.

Lord should have been for main character only.

Maybe change them to Griffon/Wyvern Master instead?

That's a good point. I obviously took the name from the Wyvern Master class but I have heard that it's called the Wyvern Master in Japanese versions and I do agree that lord should really be for the actual lords.

There seem to be a lot of classes that fill essentially the exact same purpose...

It's not just going to be weapons that make them different. They will have mastery skills and of course many different stat cas. On top of that if your saying the general purpose of many classes are similar remember that you won't get a chance to train up everyone of these classes on a single playthough either.

On a more general note I want to say I havn't played Fe13 yet so I'm not exactly sure how to work with some of the classes, most noteably the Girffon Knight and Trickster classes. From what I have heard the Trickster is meant to be a major support class by being a healer and a thief. The only thing I can really tihnk of to make it more support worthy upon promotion is to give it a mount as well but then I can't really imagine a mounted unit stealing and picking locks and if it can't do that then a mounted healer is just a Troubador. Would it be ok to just not give a trickter anything special upon promotion and just leave it as a better stats version? Or should I maybe make Trickster a third tier that promotes of rouge and get rid of the Charlatan?

Griffon Knights I'm not sure what the advantages and disadvantages of them are towards other units. The only thing I really know is that they only use axes and have a lance slayer skill so I've just left them as mono axe wielders for now (even though that means there are three third tier classes like that). Still open to suggestions on that one.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Jotari

[Anouleth]

That's a good point. I obviously took the name from the Wyvern Master class but I have heard that it's called the Wyvern Master in Japanese versions and I do agree that lord should really be for the actual lords.

It's not just going to be weapons that make them different. They will have mastery skills and of course many different stat cas. On top of that if your saying the general purpose of many classes are similar remember that you won't get a chance to train up everyone of these classes on a single playthough either.

On a more general note I want to say I havn't played Fe13 yet so I'm not exactly sure how to work with some of the classes, most noteably the Girffon Knight and Trickster classes. From what I have heard the Trickster is meant to be a major support class by being a healer and a thief. The only thing I can really tihnk of to make it more support worthy upon promotion is to give it a mount as well but then I can't really imagine a mounted unit stealing and picking locks and if it can't do that then a mounted healer is just a Troubador. Would it be ok to just not give a trickter anything special upon promotion and just leave it as a better stats version? Or should I maybe make Trickster a third tier that promotes of rouge and get rid of the Charlatan?

It's rogue, not rouge.

[Othin]

So many Tier 3 classes look just like renamed Tier 2 classes with no distinct characteristics.

[Darros]

So many Tier 3 classes look just like renamed Tier 2 classes with no distinct characteristics.

It's just like FE10!

Well yeah, what can you really do with Tier 3 other than add a mastery skill or give them a plethora of weapons to use? When every class can use like 3 weapon types it isn't too fantastic.

[Othin]

Well, I would hope one would have some better ideas before deciding to make three tiers in the first place.

A while ago, I was working on some ideas for a three-tier branching setup based on Berwick Saga's mechanics. Being a superior base system, there was a lot more to work with and differentiate classes with varying weapon types and tactical skills, but I set it up to have a class structure more like FE; Berwick Saga had some stranger stuff with playable classes often tailored to suit individual characters and therefore often flatly stronger or weaker than others in a vacuum without the individual character traits to balance them out.

I rather like the results; I guess I should finish it and post it. Might be able to clean things up with some ideas borrowed from FE13. One thing that's kind of odd is final promotion numbers. I set each class to have two promotion options, like usual, but then for the third tier options corresponding to a given base class, some classes have three options while others have four. It's pretty much a 50/50 split: I wanted something more consistent, but that would've entailed either forcing classes to have similarities that didn't really suit them for the sake of being able to make the options overlap or creating more options than would make any sense to avoid overlap. There were also some frequency issues that needed work... hmm.

[Jotari]

So many Tier 3 classes look just like renamed Tier 2 classes with no distinct characteristics.

I don't think its there's that many. I did make an effort to try an add an extra suitable weapon for tier 3 in most cases. The ones that suffer most from looking to similar are the mono weapon classes (which are meant to be like pure classes, similar throughout) and the Battle Monk/Cleric which I don't know all that much about. Admittedly the third tier dragon mount classes wield the same weapons as the second tier ones but somehow it looks acceptable in their case, to me anyway, I'm not sure why. There are some third tier classes that are similar to their second tier classes but I think there are a lot more that are different as well.

[CrashGordon94]

It's interesting, but hard to make sense of (mostly the promotion items/methods, though I can actually see why you're doing that). I do have some third tier complaints and I think there seem to be a bunch of redundant or random classes.

hoever I think my biggest comment is that it's simply hard to tell what's different besides weapon types and promotion methods by the chart alone. I think it would help to have a list describing the classes as well, because then we could see what else makes them different and it would probably also kill perceived redundancy issues in some places.

[BlueLore]

I think you should try to get a clear system about the branched promotions.

It seems odd that different classes have a different number of promotion options than other classes,for example the mage can class change into 3 different classes,who all have 3 different promotions themselves,while the bandit can only class change into 2 classes,who don't have any other options.

It would make much more sense if every class would have the same number of options.

things about the classes I would change:

-pirates/corsars could get knives as weapons,maybe even sowrds,since these were also weapons often used by pirates.The corsair could also be called captain,to set it more apart from the pirate.

-griffon ryders could get a secondary weapon upon promotion.Maybe swords or bows.

-you could make the ninja a tier 2 unit and the assassin a tier 3 unit with bows in addition to knives and swords(since I think it makes sense to use bows to assassinate someone with a bow),but ok it would make the class rather similar to the ranger

It also seems weird,that the light mage is a tier 3 class,while the dark mage is simply tier 2,makes it kinda uneven :/ and it is also weird,that mages can use all kinds of magic,but loose access to them.

All in all I think you could throw out some classes,since they are too much(40 or so) like the bow knight,who is similar to the nomadic trooper.

The knight branch also seems weird to me,the royal knight looses his horse upon promotion to black knight and the baron looses anima magic when he promotes to marshall.I think you could throw out the royal knight and the black knight and make the great knight an alternate promotion for the general.The baron could either change only into the master knight or into something like emporer/conqueror which would be a foot unit similar to the baron.

[Jotari]

I think you should try to get a clear system about the branched promotions.

It seems odd that different classes have a different number of promotion options than other classes,for example the mage can class change into 3 different classes,who all have 3 different promotions themselves,while the bandit can only class change into 2 classes,who don't have any other options.

It would make much more sense if every class would have the same number of options.

things about the classes I would change:

-pirates/corsars could get knives as weapons,maybe even sowrds,since these were also weapons often used by pirates.The corsair could also be called captain,to set it more apart from the pirate.

-griffon ryders could get a secondary weapon upon promotion.Maybe swords or bows.

-you could make the ninja a tier 2 unit and the assassin a tier 3 unit with bows in addition to knives and swords(since I think it makes sense to use bows to assassinate someone with a bow),but ok it would make the class rather similar to the ranger

It also seems weird,that the light mage is a tier 3 class,while the dark mage is simply tier 2,makes it kinda uneven :/ and it is also weird,that mages can use all kinds of magic,but loose access to them.

All in all I think you could throw out some classes,since they are too much(40 or so) like the bow knight,who is similar to the nomadic trooper.

The knight branch also seems weird to me,the royal knight looses his horse upon promotion to black knight and the baron looses anima magic when he promotes to marshall.I think you could throw out the royal knight and the black knight and make the great knight an alternate promotion for the general.The baron could either change only into the master knight or into something like emporer/conqueror which would be a foot unit similar to the baron.

Looks like an explanation is needed on the weapon rank promotion. Some classes promote by weapon rank, the mage class for example starts off with all types of magic but depending on what type has the highest weapon rank upon promotion (reaching level 21 or using the an item like the master crown) it will promote to one of three classes. So if when your using your mage you specialize in light magic it will become a monk. Similarly the Baron upon promoting to a Marshall will lose it's anima rank only if it didn't bother using magic in the first place. Otherwise it will promote to a Master Knight. The Black Knight was also thrown in there as a secret "awesome but impractical class". They have really high stat caps and access to the overpowered mastery skill eclipse but to get one you must promote a general or royal knight with a low lance weapon rank (which would mean destroying your knight with bonus exp or prepromoting it).

On your other points there already is a sword/axe user under the hero and vanguard classes but giving Corsairs knives might work (even if it goes a bit against the fire emblem depiction of pirates and bandits). I haven't played Fe13 yet to get the feel of Griffon Riders so I want to do that before deciding too much about them. I also had the same strain of thought as you did for the assassin/ninja using swords knives and bows but also decided not to since it would act the same as a ranger (though FE13has given assassins bows so mayhaps I'll ax the ranger class in order to do that). I've already renamed the druid as a sorcerer and your right having dark mage and light mages as different tiers is kind of strange so I'll rename the dark mage druid.

I also have to disagree with having a set number or promotions for all classes. Some classes are more versatile than others when it comes to what they can specialize in and during the course of most fire emblem games you tend to get more mages than you would bandits so having it so you can do more with each mage makes things more customizable. Having it so each class can only promote into one or two requires less originality on my part (as that is the way things are done now and I wouldn't be doing anything new at all) and having it so each class must promote to more than two could really mean a lot of forces classes that just don't fit.

[BlueLore]

Looks like an explanation is needed on the weapon rank promotion. Some classes promote by weapon rank, the mage class for example starts off with all types of magic but depending on what type has the highest weapon rank upon promotion (reaching level 21 or using the an item like the master crown) it will promote to one of three classes. So if when your using your mage you specialize in light magic it will become a monk. Similarly the Baron upon promoting to a Marshall will lose it's anima rank only if it didn't bother using magic in the first place. Otherwise it will promote to a Master Knight. The Black Knight was also thrown in there as a secret "awesome but impractical class". They have really high stat caps and access to the overpowered mastery skill eclipse but to get one you must promote a general or royal knight with a low lance weapon rank (which would mean destroying your knight with bonus exp or prepromoting it).

well that is an interesting way of class changing,but it is still weird.

When a class promotes I expect them to have access to more weapon types upon promotion than beforee(or at last as much as they had before),but the mage looses access to two weapon types upon promotion which is odd.

the idea with the black knight is nice,but it doesn't make much sense for me,I mean if the general isn't allowed to use lances,he will use bows,which will mean,that you can get a black knight by training your general in bows,which he can't even use as a black knight.

On your other points there already is a sword/axe user under the hero and vanguard classes but giving Corsairs knives might work (even if it goes a bit against the fire emblem depiction of pirates and bandits). I haven't played Fe13 yet to get the feel of Griffon Riders so I want to do that before deciding too much about them. I also had the same strain of thought as you did for the assassin/ninja using swords knives and bows but also decided not to since it would act the same as a ranger (though FE13has given assassins bows so mayhaps I'll ax the ranger class in order to do that). I've already renamed the druid as a sorcerer and your right having dark mage and light mages as different tiers is kind of strange so I'll rename the dark mage druid.

well griffon riders are a balanced class from what i've read,but since they are quite new to the series it shouldn't be a problem to give them some extras.

also about the similar weapon choices:

The wyvern lord has access to the same weapons as the phoenix knight.I think you could give the wyvern lord something else like crossbows or so,because he also looks a little bit similar to the draco lord.

I also have to disagree with having a set number or promotions for all classes. Some classes are more versatile than others when it comes to what they can specialize in and during the course of most fire emblem games you tend to get more mages than you would bandits so having it so you can do more with each mage makes things more customizable. Having it so each class can only promote into one or two requires less originality on my part (as that is the way things are done now and I wouldn't be doing anything new at all) and having it so each class must promote to more than two could really mean a lot of forces classes that just don't fit.

well but the system is still odd without a set system.

I think it may be better to scrap a tier completely,because most branches seem to repeat themselves at least once(wyvern knight/wyvern lord,draco knights/dracolords,heros/vanguards,battle monks/warrior monks,falcon knight/phoenix knight and so on all have access to the same weapons).

sure some branches would change quite drastically(especially the knight and cavalier branch and maybe the pegasus branch),but the most branches don't really need a third tier in the first place.

[CrashGordon94]

I must say I'm not terribly keen on the "weapon ranks for promotion" (for lack of a better term) thing personally, it's definitely inventive but it just sounds really awkward and I really don't aprreciate consequences for raising certain weapon ranks.

[Jotari]

I must say I'm not terribly keen on the "weapon ranks for promotion" (for lack of a better term) thing personally, it's definitely inventive but it just sounds really awkward and I really don't aprreciate consequences for raising certain weapon ranks.

Well I imagine there would be some form of in game tree that would display most of the classes available (keeping some hidden for the fun of it) and in the so far weapon rank promotions that we have here the only one that could be problematic is the sage one. The Black Knight as I said above is made to be impractical to get and will only be obtained by deliberately working towards it. Likewise the Baron to Master Knight promotion will only occur with a high anima magic rank, something the Baron only acquires upon promotion to it meaning if you want to go Baron -> Master Knight you really have to dedicate your to magic right from the promotion. Which leaves only the mage as the likely class where players might level up evenly. I would treat the mage as an example class and make the knowledge of its promotion quite known using supports, base conversations, manuals and in game tutorials to convey the point of branched promotions and how the mage in particular promotes.

[CrashGordon94]

Well I imagine there would be some form of in game tree that would display most of the classes available (keeping some hidden for the fun of it)

If you do that, DO NOT DO THE BOLDED!

Anyway, my issue is simply that you could get screwed out of a class you want by raising the "wrong" weapon rank, there's simply no way to get past that problem, even (or ESPECIALLY) if that's your intention.

[Jotari]

Anyway, my issue is simply that you could get screwed out of a class you want by raising the "wrong" weapon rank, there's simply no way to get past that problem, even (or ESPECIALLY) if that's your intention.

The way it is laid out however makes it so in order to get the class you want with weapon rank you really have to know what your doing and want that particular class. The only one where you might make a mistake would be the mage class, which I am considering changing since people don't seem to be fond of the specializing feature for them.