Super Smash Bros Universe Mafia

[eclipse]

Guys wanting to vote for Blitzy, please stop. He's not scummy at all. Seriously, stop.

Just because you like to dodge questions and generally be vague doesn't mean it's NOT scummy. Will be linkposting the rest, or it's gonna be a wall.

Source. I'm willing to believe it because it seems like something that would benefit the town far more than mafia. Eli's ability does two things - it confirms his target in the thread, and his target is forced to announce his/her stage in public. It would look really weird if a bunch of people perceived as town were forced to announce their stages, as it would imply that the person forcing the stage is scum. On the other hand, it can force scummy people to be honest about where they're going. It can also be used to confirm Subi's role, as well (as the public stage announcement and the final stage listings will be different). I didn't ask him for his role; he volunteered it, and said he was afraid of using it because it could hurt the town. This, along with the rest of the chat during D2 makes me think Elieson's town.

Source. What you do with your role is up to you; however, if you want to use it on anyone, I'm willing to volunteer myself. Hell, you can rig it so that we have a nice chat.

Source. I'm still not happy with your logic of "what if watcher is scum?", but I remember you doing some pretty silly things in other games (right up to NOT READING A POST BY A CERTAIN SOMEONE in Prims' mini-game).

Source, this one's kinda long. Please click on the link I provided; the original idea was from Excellen way back in D2 somewhere, then Prims re-echoed it (link is the echo). Now that we have information on what the hell the stages do, we know better than to send me back to Mushroom Kingdom on N3, for example. Back in D1, we had no idea what the stages did. Though I've only got two data points, I don't think we can afford to linger on a given stage for too long (or at least, not on the stage I was on, unless you're Psych). However, I see your point about increasing the chances of negative effects, so people should pay attention to what happens when they go to certain stages (whether or not they out it is up to them).

I also see your logic regarding Marth, and that's something that slipped my mind. Thanks for pointing that out, though I'm trying to figure out how he went from "we think alike" to "you're scum!" in the span of two day cycles. Please check the link regarding the vig; you were the one that mentioned it, and then you didn't want to talk about it. I found that a bit odd. Lastly, notice where my vote was. The fact that you were able to reason out your logic damn well makes me just a little less wary of you.

Source. Probably because Iris wanted to know WTF was going on. During the first half of D2, Elie was talking to me on IRC. He had some other family matters to take care of, as well. Rest of Elie's stuff explained above.

I would be really happy if the following happened:

1. Blitz and Proto stopped being vague and started being more to the point in regards to WTF they're doing, as well as start answering questions directed at them.

1a. Proto explained why he wants to lynch himself, despite finding Subi/Shinori/Tables scummy.

2. A better claim by Marth; I wasn't pleased with his earlier "intentionally scummy play", and then BBM pointed out some stuff that I missed.

3. Tables taking notes on the game; I know a lot happened, and scorri wasn't exactly active, but surely there's something you can contribute?

4. Bananas to seriously exist. His contributions are minimal, and "minimal" doesn't help with scumhunting.

5. Me getting back well before phase end. Ala Moana closes an hour before the phase ends, so I will be in front of my computer by then.

##Unvote

##Vote: Tables

Strange result or not, I'd really appreciate it if you can point out what you saw between your last post and whatever your next one is.

[Prims]

what if she just planned to claim stage commuter or something?

[Kriemhild]

what if she just planned to claim stage commuter or something?

Was it strictly necessary for her to even act? High Jump has two shots only. If it's too risky today, try again tomorrow.

Besides, that would have been way too scummy. Even if she planned to claim stage commuter, she still chose to kill Excellen. When I was the only one with him. If I was lynched/shot/cleared, then scorri would be the next suspect. At least, if she killed someone else, there would have been other suspects but noooo, she just had to go for the guy where there'd have been only one suspect before factoring in stage bypassing. She clearly wouldn't want a Town Tracker on her.

Oh, and for someone who's only actions involve killing, I would think that a passive role would be the most reliable, since the only way to prove that someone's role is active is to observe them through tracking/watching, which would have pointed towards her being a killer even without the passive claim.

[Kriemhild]

Oh, and for someone whose only actions involve killing, I would think that a passive role would be the most reliable fakeclaim, since the only way to prove that someone's role is active is to observe them through tracking/watching, which would have pointed towards her being a killer even without the passive claim.

[Grace]

Source. I'm still not happy with your logic of "what if watcher is scum?", but I remember you doing some pretty silly things in other games (right up to NOT READING A POST BY A CERTAIN SOMEONE in Prims' mini-game).

4. Bananas to seriously exist. His contributions are minimal, and "minimal" doesn't help with scumhunting.

And you hit the nail right on the head, later in your post. Why do you think I've been thinking he's scum? Because of that.

Just because a role is more likely to be town does not necessarily mean that it will be town. Seriously, that's what I was thinking during D2. We normally see scum!rolecops, but we managed to lynch a town!rolecop instead. I somehow doubt scum would have a rolecop because of counterclaiming, and scum normally has some investigative role (dependent on game). Hey look, he could just be claiming his role, and pretending he's town.

Of course, with the scorri flip, I'm not as interested in him now, he's looking a bit better. But before that, the above stands.

Also, one more thing: Every time you start cracking down on people, you always start with me... why is that? My senses are tingling again...

[Kriemhild]

Watcher is more of a scummy role, while Tracker is more of a townish role imo

[eclipse]

Because no one else seems to think you're worth their time? While Bananas may have problems existing, I'm not willing to chance a watcher claim because of it - if you want to see the ultimate in lynch silliness, reference FE4 Mafia.

[Tables]

Proto: When I was subbed in, my action choices were already there for me. I'm just reporting the result. Honestly most of everything else I can't say much about, other than it'd be pretty stupid scum to fake a report like that on a teammate. Much more useful to fake a report on someone else.

Also, Watcher is generally much more useful as a protective role than an information one. If you're playing it to try and weed out scum, you're doing it wrong. Watch a clear player instead whose likely to be killed.

Uhh... Eclipse, what's the reason for your vote? To get me to post? I haven't seen anything of major note in posts, really.

[Elieson]

elie, why did you claim under no pressure?

most players have already claimed pointless roles likes yours. by claiming at random, you're helping scum narrow down the important people who they need to roleblock and/or shoot. i don't see scum intent in this but it was definitely a bad move if you're town

Any idiot with a brain could deduce that Iris posting her ##Visit STAGE in thread was forced, and narrow it down to BBM or myself. He dropped crumbs about his role already, leaving me. I'd rather not be pressed for something that people would find me suspicious for, when I could just alleviate suspicions about the likelyhood of me forcing it and just share it.

stuff you've done that i actually do see scum intent in: why did you drop marth completely then go voteless for the first half of d2, it's like you randomly stopped caring about everything. when you started posting walls again most of your reads were neutral and you didn't really have conviction on anything, including your wagon hop.

Why drop marth? Because I was pretty much on my own with an empty wagon. What should I have done? I obviously wasn't convincing people to stick around on the Marth wagon, was I? And my lack of conviction on jumping to SB? I voted for a noncontributer, who at the time, was still hiding his role, who happens to be Noob!town or noob!scum (i assumed the latter).

I find it hilarious that Now the Marth wagon is up and running again, especially because I had nothing to do with it. It's even because of his role now (along with scummy behavior), something that you tell me I shouldn't be concerned with regarding my vote on Iris. Hypocritical? Ya just a bit.

were the irl issues from the start of the day? i was under the impression you were available up until you posted them, meaning you didn't really have an excuse for your apathy early on that day, just later

Not that it matters, but my "apathy" is split between 2 jobs, nearly single dad-dom, and a dog crisis. Ask eclipse. She can verify. Hell, most people in here could confirm that I'm busy all the time, and post as often as I can from my phone because I can never hit up a PC.

i also wish we could stop lynching people for being dealt roles that look scummy but are easily proven when we could be lynching people who are scummy (blitz) or actually talking out of their ass with their roleclaim (marth). this goes for you, elie. why would you vote iris for having an anti-town role when you yourself were given an anti-town role as town?

All thoughts considered, we have mislynched people who acted scummy, (see Kay, see 1000 other games), so I think your idea of ignoring roles entirely and looking only at conversation is flawed. See above in the Marth portion.

The antitown part of my role? I asked Eclipse for advice, and furthermore, used my role on scum, after idling the night before. I idled with Eclipse/Psych because I thought neither of them were scum, and didn't want to force then to say "HEY GUYS, IF YOU WANT TO LYNCH ME, I'LL BE HERE". I feel Iris's role could stand to be avoided because I foresee a simple outcome: Iris forces two ppl to switch, scum and town. The role switches are a weak scumrole for a powerful town role. Scum learns who to keep alive, to take advantage of a stronger PR, and someone else gets to die. I'd rather not see that happen.

I dunno if you feel the same way Subi said it could be used for (albeit slow) role confirmation, and I hadn't thought if that, but even if she is town, her role isn't confirming alignment. And her role says in it, that a mafia kill still goes through, which to me, hints at scum presence.

If my thought process is so ridiculously flawed that I should be chastised for it, fine go ahead and do so. I still think I presented a legitimate possibility, and it shouldn't be thrown out just because of a disagreement between prioritizing role vs. in thread conversation, especially when Marth is a victim of having [some of the], same characteristics as Iris {in terms of in thread conviction and role suspicion}.

I've been fine with a Marth lynch since D1, and would switch back to him in a heartbeat, if by some miraculous turn of events, his wagon didn't die by the end of the day again. But as we saw in D1, wagons come and go for crap reasons and supposedly justified finger pointing by power players.

My vote stands, but will switch to Marth if his wagon stays/grows.

[Elieson]

Took me an hour to make that post >:(

[charlie_]

Maybe Marth evolved night 1 because he has 2 evolutions. I wouldn't ve suprised if he evolved to something weak now and could get a more powerful ability later. Although Psych had to evolve even though he started as a Charizard. I reckon Proto is forced to vote himself, perhaps if he confirms this he would get modkilled? I think someone brought up him being forced before but he just skirted around it. I'll look further into this when I get back to my computer, but for now my main suspects are Blitz and Tables.

Vote: Tables

Right now he seems more scummy.

[charlie_]

I mean ##Vote: Tables

[Grace]

Although Psych had to evolve even though he started as a Charizard.

I want to clarify something here: Psych claimed Ivysaur, and had evolved to Venusaur. Proto was the one who claimed Charizard, if memory serves.

[Subieko]

tl;dr - scorri would not have felt safe about High Jumping when there was a Tracker tailing her last night. Unless the "Tracker" is actually her own scumbuddy.

I think Scorri used her High Jump because scum thought she had a good chance of being lynched today and they didn't want it to be wasted. Trying to save the other use of High Jump doesn't really make sense because the Town doesn't know how many uses it has in the first place. So, until she flips, we can't be sure whether any given kill crossed stages or not. And if she dies, then we know it's gone, so any saved uses are wasted.

I still think something strange is going on with Proto and that he is unable to explain it for some reason. His posts seem different from normal and he won't respond to questions of his being Persuaded. Not sure what's going on exactly, but there's got to be something.

Re: Elie--I actually think his role would be really terrible as a scum role, because it's very, very obvious that it's been used. Yeah, it could be good to figure out where players scum wants to target are going, but then it would become obvious the stage-revealer role was scum. Not that it's super useful as Town either, but as a scum role it seems like shooting yourself in the foot.

I've been iso'ing Marth and after thinking about, I would be okay with a lynch on him even though I would prefer Blitz. If he's fakeclaiming I wonder why he didn't just make a Squirtle claim since that would've made more sense, but eh. If he wanted to keep his upgraded role a secret, why even say he was upgraded when he claimed? Also, this:

Tbh I think I was redirected to Iris, but I'm not sure. What I do know is my target was Blitz last night.

That's from N1. If Marth is really Universal Backup and he got Kay's role, how could he not know who he targeted?

Still not sure if Blitz/Marth make sense as scumbuddies, given Marth's D1 antics and Blitz now pressuring him. Also, I still can't find anywhere in-thread that Marth actually said he was a Universal Backup, although it's a reasonable inference given that he said his upgrade was related to Kay's death. Would still like Marth to actually say what ability he's claiming though.

[Bluedoom]

My problem with using your role to prove claims is that you have to wait an entire night, and it requires the second person to either give up their action, let it get used blindly, or have claimed their role. It just seems impractical.

Is that actually what he's claiming though? Tbh my theory was that he took on Kay's role because that's the idol Piplup was cheering for, since King Dedede is a penguin...I realize this theory is dumb though. But anyway before we start speculating about whether Marth's claim makes sense I'd like to know what it actually is.

Subi summed it up perfectly: I'm the backup rolecop.

[Subieko]

Subi summed it up perfectly: I'm the backup rolecop.

Then please address my other point: if you had become the rolecop N1, how could you not know whether you targeted Iris or Blitz?

[BBM]

Proto, I see your point that Scorri using her role with a Tracker on the stage isn't the best play, but you can't assume that everyone plays optimally. See SFM, for example. The mafia didn't realize that a Lynchproof fakeclaim could draw a test lynch until the claim had already been made, after which it was simply too late. And then after that, I made another bad move and attempted to act just scummy enough that I'd draw a cop investigation (since I'd been Tailored), but all that resulted in was everyone being okay with testing the claim since it had been made on someone who had acted kinda scummy. Not everyone plays optimally or considers every possibility, and you can't assume that they will either.

Also, Eclipse, while I did make an early post talking about the Vig, it was only one small post- I didn't intend for it to be a whole discussion, and I thought it had gone on long enough.

Elieson, your point that we've mislynched people based on scummy behaviour is true, but we've also correctly lynched someone for scummy behaviour many times, when it wasn't based on roles at all. See Marth in GSM. And there've also been cases where a town had a scummy role before. Shinori, Town Kidnapper in Higurashi. Bizz, who I believe was Town Bus Driver in Schoolgirl.

[Bluedoom]

I've been iso'ing Marth and after thinking about, I would be okay with a lynch on him even though I would prefer Blitz. If he's fakeclaiming I wonder why he didn't just make a Squirtle claim since that would've made more sense, but eh. If he wanted to keep his upgraded role a secret, why even say he was upgraded when he claimed?

Subi, look at your post again and see what's wrong with the problem you have about me claiming that I got an upgrade.

[scorri]

(There was no bus driver in schoolgirl, i faked claimed that as redirector)

[Bluedoom]

Then please address my other point: if you had become the rolecop N1, how could you not know whether you targeted Iris or Blitz?

Uh.. look, I got Iris' role on N1 but I wasn't sure because of Shinori's redirect first going through. Shinori used his role on me but iris' roleswapping confused me, and I thought it went through at me anyway, making my target Iris instead of Blitz. Finally, it doesn't give the full role pm, only action summarizing, which makes it even harder to figure out. Anyway iris confirmed that with her claim.

[Subieko]

Uh.. look, I got Iris' role on N1 but I wasn't sure because of Shinori's redirect first going through. Shinori used his role on me but iris' roleswapping confused me, and I thought it went through at me anyway, making my target Iris instead of Blitz. Finally, it doesn't give the full role pm, only action summarizing, which makes it even harder to figure out. Anyway iris confirmed that with her claim.

What I meant was that a rolecop gets a night result. So it wouldn't be a mystery to you who you targeted, you would have a result to look at. Unless you don't get the name of the player you targeted, but I thought that was standard?

Also, what do you mean by 'action summarizing'? And how are you a backup rolecop if you don't get the role? I would really like it if you would just claim what your action actually does because at this point it is not at all clear to me.

[Shinori]

So then you confirm my role as redirector which is something you should have done yesterday since most people didn't believe my claim in the first place because you couldn't verify if i did or didn't.

And you saying iris confused you doesn't stop the fact that you could have just said you got someone else's role than what you think. Especially since I said that I used my ability on you before Iris claimed or said what her ability did.

There was no reason Iris's role should have confused you when asked if i redirected you or not.

My vote still stays on you.

[Shinori]

You have already claimed, link your updated role pm. Like now.

[Elieson]

[spoiler=My Role PM]

Dear Elieson,

You are Pit.

The captain of the royal bodyguards of Palutena, goddess of light and ruler of Angel Land. The dark goddess, Medusa, conquered the underworld, the surface world, and the heavens, and imprisoned Palutena. Pit escaped and, armed with Palutena's magical bow, set out to free her. Along the way, he gathered Three Sacred Treasures with which he challenged Medusa.

During the night, you may reply to your Role PM with "Night X - Archers, move out against USER". You will summon Palutena's Army. They will watch USER's every step during the following day, and since they are so high up, everyone will be able to see where USER goes. USER has to choose his Stage in the thread during the following day.

You are allied with the Town. You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

Btw, Marth, did you really have to be so cryptic about it?

And BBM, you're right. Roles aren't necessarily 100% indicitive of alignment. The difference is, in the case with Shinori, he said "Hey, I'm not gonna use my anti-town role", and didn't. I conferred with Eclipse on using my role, because I didn't want the entire thread to jump on me as if I were claiming something out of the ordinary just to keep attention off of me (which I wasn't a prime suspect or anything to begin with). I then realized that I should use it on those who I think are scummy, to attempt to single them out. If my logic that Iris being Scum!Roleswapper is flawed, but Prims' logic on Marth being Scum!Backup is not, then I dunno what to tell you. You all know I barked up the Marth tree before he said anything about his role, and what ended up happening? I was the last one left on the wagon, when people were being lynched and had close to 5 votes each. Me sitting on Marth was effectively the same as Nolynching. And yes, Prims caught scorri, but I'm assuming that was based on inthread conversation as well as Bizz's meta. Prims also had us wrapped around his finger in Draft mafia, and he was scum there. You know that for a fact, that well placed arguments can make anyone look like scum, regardless of alignment. I don't have that skill as refined as Prims, among others, so I need to just stick with my hunches and follow suspicions that are presented to me, whether I find them myself or others point them out by obvious consensus.

[Shinori]

@Elieson: I did use my ability night one. I redirected marth to iris. And when asked for verification all day yestarday there was none at all yet he obviously used his role which means it would have been redirected.