[FE7]Draft Tier List and Character Discussion

[PKL]

I want a thread where we can discuss draft characters and stuff. Strats, who is the best, etc.

The tier list for now reflects who are the best overall picks. Their contributions are based on how many turns they save and how reliably they do so. There might also be other factors to consider other than turns though. One of them is, how screwed in your next pick can you get if you pick said character. This tier list assumes HNM right now and the following rules: (generic ruleset)

[spoiler=Assumed Ruleset]

Drafting:

1. This draft is for 5 players.

2. Hector, Marcus, Merlinus, Ninian/Nils, and Athos are free for all to use.

3. Bartre and Karla are drafted as a pair.

4. Geitz and Wallace will remain undrafted.

5. Marcus is banned after Chapter 16.

6. The game will be played on Hector Normal Mode, skipping Lyn Mode.

Rules:

1. Undrafted units may recruit characters, rescue undrafted units and NPCs, trade, visit Shops and Armories, and dig up items in the desert.

2. Undrafted units may not do anything not listed above, including but not limited to meatshielding, building Supports, opening Doors or Chests, talking to Fargus in Chapter 17x, or Seizing Castles in Chapter 25.

3. All Gaiden Chapters except 19xx, 23x and 28x are required to be visited. 23x and 28x may be visited at the player's discretion, and don't count towards the total turncount up to 20 turns taken per chapter.

4. Other units may do as they please without penalty.

5. Defend chapters count the last played Player Phase for turns if the timer is waited out.

Penalties:

1. Undrafted units have a 4 turn penalty, per unit per chapter.

Exceptions:

1. Matthew is free for Chapter 11.

2. Meatshielding is allowed for Chapter 13x.

3. Lyn, Kent, Sain and Wil are free for Chapter 16.

4. Undrafted Thieves may be used to obtain necessary Promotion items.

Note: This list is very very prone to errors and I want you all to tell me where they are :p.

-Top-

Florina

-High-

Fiora

Lowen

Sain

Kent

Heath

-Mid-

Lucius

Erk

Canas

Pent

Oswin

Eliwood

Rath

Isadora

Priscilla

Farina

Dart

Matthew

Dorcas

Hawkeye

-Low-

Raven

Serra

Lyn

Guy

Bartre/Karla

Louise

Jaffar

Legault

Rebecca

Wil

Vaida

-Bottom-

Nino

Wallace

Harken

Karel

Renault

Geitz

Right now, Fiora is above Sain and Kent due to flight alone. While she cant ferry Hector after he promotes, that doesnt stop her from saving almost as many turns as Florina. The no-hector ferry can be remedied by a warper later on.

I considered Lowen above Sain and Kent, but his contributions earlygame over the other 2 dont make up for his awful stats later on.

Eliwood is that high due to his availability and because he can ferry promoted Hector.

Canas above Erk because of better durability. They both can get to warp and Canas has better offense with Luna over Erk. While Erk has the availability advantage and helps avoid Jerme's map. Its pretty even but I think Canas has a slight edge.

Agree/disagree? Voice your opinions LOUDLY.

[spoiler=Changes]

Erk over Canas

Dart over Lyn

Eliwood dropped to below Oswin

Lucius>Pent

Erk>Isadora

Canas>Isadora

Rath dropped to below Dart

Matthew dropped to below Rath's new spot

Priscilla dropped to below Dart

Rebecca above Vaida

Wil above rest of bottom

Nino to top of bottom

Jaffar>Harken

Guy below Hawkeye

Serra below Hawkeye

Lowen above Kent/Sain

Erk Canas above Pent

Pent over Oswin/Eliwood

Rath over Raven Dart and Priscilla

Priscilla over Raven Dart

Edited October 24, 2012 by PKL

[charlie_]

Erk>Canas due to availibilty and getting going faster. And avoiding Jerme like the plague.

Kent>Lowen due to better stats.

Rebecca could stand to rise. She doesn't cost turns and can do some neat stuff with the longbow. She's better than the turn costing scrubs and probably Louise.

Pent down to other warpers. Ninils just above them.

more later

[Darros]

Why are the free characters on the list? That seems silly.

[PKL]

Erk>Canas due to availibilty and getting going faster. And avoiding Jerme like the plague.

Kent>Lowen due to better stats.

Rebecca could stand to rise. She doesn't cost turns and can do some neat stuff with the longbow. She's better than the turn costing scrubs and probably Louise.

Pent down to other warpers. Ninils just above them.

more later

You are going to have to do a lot better than that to convince me of Erk>Canas.

Kent already > Lowen lol.

You cant judge Rebecca based solely on your personal experience in 1 draft with her. Her poor bases and lack of EP make her a very subpar draftee. While its true she can contribute a bit with her chip and longbow is nice to have to take down snags in Uhai's chapter, its also true that she never ORKOs anything and doesnt have an existent Enemy Phase. At least Louise comes with good bases, an auto A support with Pent and can contribute right away if you happen to visit Jerme.

And why should Pent be with the other warpers? On top of having an Auto A staves, he also has good combat on top of it and didnt cost any turns/babying to get there.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Professor PicKLe

[Paperblade]

tiering free/banned characters is dumb

edit: also Dart is too low

Edited July 13, 2012 by Paperblade

[PKL]

Why are the free characters on the list? That seems silly.

tiering free/banned characters is dumb

edit: also Dart is too low

Alright, Ill take them out then.

edit: Care to elaborate on why you think Dart should be higher?

Edited July 13, 2012 by Professor PicKLe

[charlie_]

When was the marcus ban at 17?

[Sunwoo]

When was the marcus ban at 17?

In my current support draft, in which PKL is participating in, Marcus was banned at 17 instead of 16.

Also, I'm rather surprised at Rath's placement. He's higher than I thought he would be. This may be my personal bias speaking, but if you can draft Rath and one of Heath or Florina, they make a rather potent team.

[PKL]

When was the marcus ban at 17?

Its normally 16 right? My bad I had that in a notepad file and it seems i edited it for future drafts (i like the ban after 17)

[Ema Skye]

Why isn't Serra with the other warpers? She has no problem at all getting to Warp since she starts with innate staffs, unlike Erk or Canas who have to work from that E rank much later in the game.

Also, Priscilla should be over Canas and Erk due to Warp + high movement. I think that easily makes her the best of the warpers.

[charlie_]

In that case erk is one of the best knight killers there. He has more chapters on Canas, so he gets more exp. I'm fairly sure Canas won't be likeky to double the desert brothers when Erk probably can. Erk manages to kill things more quickly and isn't locked to flux forever. Early promoted Erk is also a lot more solid statwise than Canas who gets the same treatment. Also Erk's tomes are cheaper, so you can buy more staves to staffspam him with.

[Sunwoo]

Why isn't Serra with the other warpers? She has no problem at all getting to Warp since she starts with innate staffs, unlike Erk or Canas who have to work from that E rank much later in the game.

I think one problem with Serra being lower than other warpers is that ... well, she's a staff user. Sure, she has no problem getting A staves quickly, unlike Erk or Canas who really have to work for it, but Serra has a base magic of 2 ... and if we're finishing maps as quickly as we are in a draft, then she's going to struggle to gain enough EXP to promote at even level 10. Her magic growth is 50%, so she has a 50-50 chance of getting magic. At level 10, on average she won't have a great warp range. Also, you have to keep her out of combat until she promotes because she can't counter while Erk and Canas can at least fight back from the moment you get them.

I'm not sure what to say about Priscilla. Higher starting level, better magic base, and horse = better potential for Warp. But I'm sure it's a pain to get her to even level 10 in drafts, too.

[Silvercrow]

As bad as it sounds, I would honestly agree that helping bring you to Kenneth's chapter will do more to save you turns than any of Canas' other advantages over Erk. Disregard this if you don't want to tier based on that.

I'm not sold on Kent > Lowen... Lowen has 5 chapters on Kent and there's no Lyn mode to make up for that. Being able to having a mounted unit other than Marcus in the early maps allows you to split your focus on map objectives and might be able to save a turn on chapters 12 or 14. Where does Kent specifically save turns over Lowen? It's normal mode with an extremely limited character pool, so it's not like Lowen will exhibit his regular doubling issues. Kent is also fairly unimpressive if you haven't done Lyn mode. I can see Sain onerounding some stuff that neither Kent nor Lowen can, but... idk

Priscilla should rise, but I'm not sure to where or how the best way to argue that is, so I'll leave it for now. I definitely feel she contributes more than Erk or Canas just by virtue of being mounted at the very least.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Silvercrow

[ZemZem]

Also, Priscilla should be over Canas and Erk due to Warp + high movement. I think that easily makes her the best of the warpers.

The problem is is that she's a pain to level up. Though personally, I have no problem. :P

[Silvercrow]

The problem is is that she's a pain to level up. Though personally, I have no problem. :P

Only before Barrier/Physic staves, really. It's not like you need to promote her late or anything.

[Sunwoo]

Only before Barrier/Physic staves, really. It's not like you need to promote her late or anything.

I'm only one drafter who's recently begun to improve, and I have some rather ... interesting strategies, so I can't say I speak for everyone. But isn't the only way to get an early Physic staff to get the Member Card from the thief that shows up with Legault on the Dread Isle? I'm not sure if everyone gets that.

Also, I think the thing with Priscilla and Serra is that they are a pain to level up. Unless they get blessed for you, and if we're assuming averages, the earlier they promote the poorer their magic will be. Through some annoying personal experience, I've found out that 12/13 magic is not enough to 1-turn 31x and 16 magic only lets you 1-turn 31x if you have someone who can kill Kishuna with 1 hit and if your Warper is in a specific location. Also, the shorter the Warp range the more walking Hector or the person ferrying him will have to do. Not to mention that only five people can ferry Hector after he promotes. Which may be the issue.

[Paperblade]

Dart has the best offense in the game and getting him EXP to compensate for his "slow" start isn't exactly difficult.

He's below people like Dorcas who doesn't do shit in the second half of the game and Guy who is swordlocked, plus both push you towards Jerme FFO which is basically the worst thing you can do to yourself.

Compare him to Raven, for example. Raven does nothing in his join chapter, 17x, or 18 other than self improvement, then Dart joins. Obviously Raven is gonna be better at this time but once we get to like Kinship's Bond Dart will easily have gotten enough EXP to be doubling and ORKOing and has better mobility due to Pirate/Zerker (less cost on mountains, can move over peaks and water), and I'm not sure exactly how much more Raven is helping before Dart promotes (units like this I usually pick for an extra body in rout maps or boss killing, and Dart having better move and higher Str/Spd and quicker access to powerful axes makes him better at bosskilling). Then again I'm also not exactly sure how much better Dart is afterwards, but I don't think it warrants a tier gap (and I think Dart > Lyn)

Ocean Seal costing a lot of cash doesn't matter since you have infinite anyway

Also I think unpromoted staff users (Pris/Serra) suck but that might be my personal bias (plus you already have Erk/Lucius/Canas above them)

Edited July 13, 2012 by Paperblade

[PKL]

As bad as it sounds, I would honestly agree that helping bring you to Kenneth's chapter will do more to save you turns than any of Canas' other advantages over Erk. Disregard this if you don't want to tier based on that.

I'm not sold on Kent > Lowen... Lowen has 5 chapters on Kent and there's no Lyn mode to make up for that. Being able to having a mounted unit other than Marcus in the early maps allows you to split your focus on map objectives and might be able to save a turn on chapters 12 or 14. Where does Kent specifically save turns over Lowen? It's normal mode with an extremely limited character pool, so it's not like Lowen will exhibit his regular doubling issues. Kent is also fairly unimpressive if you haven't done Lyn mode. I can see Sain onerounding some stuff that neither Kent nor Lowen can, but... idk

Priscilla should rise, but I'm not sure to where or how the best way to argue that is, so I'll leave it for now. I definitely feel she contributes more than Erk or Canas just by virtue of being mounted at the very least.

Priscilla is a pain to get to Level 10 in drafts. And remember we have limited picks, so picking her over a combat unit like Erk and canas is sketchy. She is a good warper though, hence why shes not lower.

On Kent>Lowen: Kent will have a very big statistical lead over Lowen soon. Lowen never actually saves turns in the earlygame chapters he is in. Chapter 12 is always 4 turns no matter what and thats primarily due to Marcus not getting to the mountain soon enough. He might speed up Chapter 13 by 1 turn, not sure. Chapter 14 is always 4 turns and he practically does nothing to help shave turns (the pirate reinforcement north of the boss basically gives you the middle finger if you go for anything lower than 4). Kent vs Lowen is basically earlygame vs better stats and potential to become Marcus in the future. I'd take the latter.

On Erk vs Canas: ok Ill put Erk over canas.

The problem is is that she's a pain to level up. Though personally, I have no problem. :P

This is part of the problem. Shes as high as she is due to her mount (although lacking combat) can help speedup some early chapters depending on your team. And because of a higher starting level than Serra and good staff rank. Her warp range leaves a lot to be desired later on and shes a pain to level when you are going for LTC, specially in HNM, where you wont get hurt that much later on.

Only before Barrier/Physic staves, really. It's not like you need to promote her late or anything.

Physic and Barrier could help her yes, and she greatly benefits from an earlypromotion so she can start combating (gaining a lot more exp than with staves). She is definetely not > Canas or Erk in my book though. Worse warp range and no combat contributions early on and not promotion for a good while really hinder her performance.

I'm only one drafter who's recently begun to improve, and I have some rather ... interesting strategies, so I can't say I speak for everyone. But isn't the only way to get an early Physic staff to get the Member Card from the thief that shows up with Legault on the Dread Isle? I'm not sure if everyone gets that.

Also, I think the thing with Priscilla and Serra is that they are a pain to level up. Unless they get blessed for you, and if we're assuming averages, the earlier they promote the poorer their magic will be. Through some annoying personal experience, I've found out that 12/13 magic is not enough to 1-turn 31x and 16 magic only lets you 1-turn 31x if you have someone who can kill Kishuna with 1 hit and if your Warper is in a specific location. Also, the shorter the Warp range the more walking Hector or the person ferrying him will have to do. Not to mention that only five people can ferry Hector after he promotes. Which may be the issue.

Yeah, getting the Secret Shop actually requires a thief penalty or for them to be drafted. Which is why almost no one gets the Physics/Barrier. It also costs turns to get even without a penalty (though it might be worth it). As for Serra, yeah, her pitiful warp range, leveling speed and low base level is what makes her a poor draftee.

[PKL]

Dart has the best offense in the game and getting him EXP to compensate for his "slow" start isn't exactly difficult.

He's below people like Dorcas who doesn't do shit in the second half of the game and Guy who is swordlocked, plus both push you towards Jerme FFO which is basically the worst thing you can do to yourself.

Compare him to Raven, for example. Raven does nothing in his join chapter, 17x, or 18 other than self improvement, then Dart joins. Obviously Raven is gonna be better at this time but once we get to like Kinship's Bond Dart will easily have gotten enough EXP to be doubling and ORKOing and has better mobility due to Pirate/Zerker (less cost on mountains, can move over peaks and water), and I'm not sure exactly how much more Raven is helping before Dart promotes (units like this I usually pick for an extra body in rout maps or boss killing, and Dart having better move and higher Str/Spd and quicker access to powerful axes makes him better at bosskilling). Then again I'm also not exactly sure how much better Dart is afterwards, but I don't think it warrants a tier gap (and I think Dart > Lyn)

Ocean Seal costing a lot of cash doesn't matter since you have infinite anyway

Also I think unpromoted staff users (Pris/Serra) suck but that might be my personal bias (plus you already have Erk/Lucius/Canas above them)

You're right. I heavily underrated Dart's potential. Its worth noting that he can also speed up uhai's chapter by OHKO'ing snags. Something Raven will definetely not be able to do. As for Lyn vs him, yeah Dart is the better combat unit. What was I thinking when I put him so low o_O.

And yeah, the unpromoted staffers suck. I only put Prissy so high because her mount can save a turn in a few places if you lack any other mount. For example, she can ferry promoted Oswin in Chapter 18 so he can get to the boss in Turn 3 as opposed to Turn 4. Thats also the case if you lack any 6 move unit or mount. She could ferry any 5 move unit there (like Raven or Lyn) to kill the boss a turn sooner.

[charlie_]

I don't see how Isadora is better than any of the warpers except for serra. I feel like warpers should go

Lucius=Erk, Priscilla, Pent, Canas, Serra

[PKL]

I don't see how Isadora is better than any of the warpers except for serra. I feel like warpers should go

Lucius=Erk, Priscilla, Pent, Canas, Serra

Lucius is most definetely not = Erk. Lucius has the best warp range out of all the warpers. Pent>Priscilla. Despite her mount utility and better move, she has problems getting enough exp to be at a decent enough warp range by the time she needs it. Pent will probably have more warp range and obviously, better combat.

Isadora, I wasnt sure where to put her. Shes definetely good. Mounted, good enough combat. She probably doesnt save as many turns as the warpers though.

[Refa]

Unless you have two early game mounts and a flyer, Isadora is very useful in Chapter 25. Also she can probably get the Heaven Seal in Chapter 24, saving your flyer some EXP, um...assuming your flyer can kill Lloyd after your other dudes weaken him. Also makes Jerme's a lot easier if you're unlucky enough to get him, and generally, another mount is very nice to have. Dunno about being above Erk/Canas, but I've never gotten the two to Warp, so w/e (also don't you NEED to recruit Legault to get them to Warp, costing you a turn?).

Also I'd say Pent is higher up than Erk because there are exactly ZERO Energy Drops, and Erk needs to be at 20/12 just to get the mad Warp range base Pent does. You can get Priscilla to take you to Kenneth, and his non desert combat isn't so valuable that I couldn't forgoe him for a much better at everything Pent later on.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Refa

[charlie_]

Lucius costs turns, and he's a massive pain to get without marcus. His mag growth lead over erk is usless in tier 1 due to Anima being a better weapon type. Lucius has a slightly better warp range and less trouble hitting warp. They even out in my opinion.

Prissy>Pent due to rescue warp shenanigans with ninils. I've never had trouble raising prissy, the only problem I've had with her is HP. Pent comes 11 chapters later, and has a better range but Priscilla generally contributes more over the course of the game.

[PKL]

Lucius doesnt cost turns at all.

[charlie_]

This is Marcusless. He costs turns depending on your team, or the Hero/Knights Crest instead.