[FE7]Draft Tier List and Character Discussion

[charlie_]

PKL's hatred of him mostly. And the fact he has a lower 20/20 average than Pent's due to his WTF base.

[MacLovin]

PKL hates alot and loves alot.

But in all seriousness, since Erk and Canas are around longer than pent as well as being able to get to Warp.

Shouldn't they be higher?

Also, How's Oswin this high, when he peters out after ch21?

[Aere]

Why is Rebecca above Vaida? Vaida can be used in VoD (I think?) and CoD, and can apparently kill Limstella w/ Speedwings and Braves (Horace).

[charlie_]

You only tend to have one bow user, so she has sole claim to the chapter 20 Brave Bow, and some Longbow niches for taking out cracked walls, snags and the sort. And most people can kill Limstella with the brave lance. Without wings.

[General Horace]

Why is Rebecca above Vaida? Vaida can be used in VoD (I think?) and CoD, and can apparently kill Limstella w/ Speedwings and Braves (Horace).

tis in hhm, not hnm

also i think lowen > kent sain but i'm too lazy to back it up right now

Edited August 1, 2012 by General Horace

[BBM]

This is speaking from negative bias/experience, and IIRC Horace and I talked about this on IP Chat, but even if Lowen's averages are adequate enough for him to be able to ORKO in HNM, his growths are at that level where he is more likely than the other Cavaliers to get screwed and not reach his averages. So you hear about/I have screwed Lowens incapable of doing their job more often than you hear about/I have screwed Kent/Sains.

[PKL]

Bump. Raised Lowen to below Fiora. His availability advantage over Kent/Sain and his better Chapter 17 Marcus-less makes him better than Kent and Sain. Not to mention, that even if his growths and averages aren't as strong as the other 2, he can have such a massive level lead due to all the training he can get before Kent/Sain even exist, that it shouldnt matter. Heck, he'll have much better stats until the others start promoting, which isn't until Chapter 19 or so.

Lowered Pent and raised Erk and Canas. Again, due to their availability, they can contribute before Pent even exists. Lucius is still higher than them both on the basis that he can get to more mag on average. Pent and Lucius' staff rank isn't that much of an advantage, since Erk and Canas can hit warp anyway without much effort.

Lowered Oswin and Eliwood to below Pent. In terms of shaving turns, Oswin can get the village in 13, saving a turn on his own. And he's a very good, reliable unit, who's only problem is his move. He's florina's partner-in-crime. I still don't think that warrants him being over warpers though. Eliwood is a good Hector ferrybot later in the game, if you even need that, gets his own mount, can have decent combat and he exists throughout most of the game, which is good. But still not better than warpers.

Feel free to disagree/argue/agree.

Edited October 19, 2012 by PKL

[PKL]

Can anyone do me a favor and find out how long 32x is without warp? I want to see just how many turns warp saves in total.

Polished the tier list a bit more.

-Top-

Florina

-High-

Fiora

Lowen

Sain

Kent

Heath

-Mid-

Lucius

Erk

Canas

Pent

Oswin

Eliwood

Isadora

Rath

Farina

Priscilla

Dart

Matthew

Raven

Lyn

-Low-

Dorcas

Hawkeye

Serra

Guy

Louise

Jaffar

Legault

Rebecca

Vaida

Bartre/Karla

Wil

-Bottom-

Nino

Wallace

Harken

Karel

Geitz

Renault

Rath over Raven and Dart. He has a mount, ferries promoted Hector, solid averages and he's got really good move in Kenneth's/Jerme's map over other mounts.

Priscilla over Raven and Dart because of mount and can get to Warp/Rescue. She's ironically, the hardest to get to decent warp range out of the warpers though. So that's why she's lower.

Dart over Raven because he has waterwalk, which might help if you lack a flier in Crazed Beast (ch25). Raven has no notable special traits. He's just a good foot swordlocked unit? He might drop below Lyn due to Lyn at least being able to KO Kishuna.

Split Geitz and Wallace. Wallace is the better one due to Lloyd's map being faster and more accesible in drafts. He still won't be recruited, but if he is, it doesn't cost nearly as many turns as Geitz. For Geitz, you have to have drafted Dart, Lyn and Eliwood. I think I don't have to explain how impossible that is.

Harken dropped to just above Karel. Both won't ever be recruited either, due to the turns they cost. But at least if you choose to recruit Harken, he can actually have nice combat (and a Brave Sword), unlike Karel.

Dropped Lucius Erk and Canas to top of Mid as opposed to bottom of high. Warp saves turns, but it doesn't compare to how many flight/mounts shave.

Rath over Farina. They're both the same in Kenneth's map. Farina's only advantage is in Cog of Destiny. While Rath can ferry Hector in 30 and 32. Which is something Farina cant do with 8(or 10 with boots) due to only being able to ferry him unpromoted.

Edited October 19, 2012 by PKL

[BBM]

You're discounting that Raven has 1-2 range after promotion (and an earlier promotion) than Lyn. Plus, Raven can OHKO Kishuna with a Killer Axe crit if he has 24 STR, which he gets around 20/15. Lyn doesn't get the necessary SPD to double and ORKO Kishuna with a crit until she's 20/16, so she doesn't even have that over Raven. And Raven comes the chapter right after Lyn, but with +4 STR, +4 SPD, +9 HP, and +3 CON. To compensate for this, Lyn has the Mani Katti. Except Raven can take the Armorslayer/Longsword to mitigate that. Raven shitstomps Lyn so hard it's actually a joke. Raven can't really go up because at the end of the day, he's just a foot unit with good combat, but Lyn is a foot unit with shitty combat. In fact, I'd say Lyn should go down.

[PKL]

BBM- They're both meh. Raven does nothing special ever. Sure, he's got good combat (as if that's in high demand in HNM). But he also has a downside in that training him takes to you to Jerme. Lyn might be worse, but at least she doesn't cost turns by taking you to Jerme.

EDIT: Also, moved Rath above Farina.

Edited October 19, 2012 by PKL

[ZemZem]

I did 32x in five turns with boots on Heath, if that's what you want to know.

[PKL]

So Warp saves 4 turns in 32x. Saves a turn or 2 in 30, around 2-5 turns depending on the team in 32 and a few in Final. That's a lot.

[Elieson]

Is the Silver Card reallt worth that little?

What about torchview in 13x and Uhai's chapter (i forget which they are) allow for far more strategic unit placement due to only mostly predictable AI in FoW.

And Renault over Geitz. Free Warper for two/three chapters and costs 0 turns forever. Simply recruiting Geitz costs turns in the units that you need to draft just to unlock his chapter, not to mention it's a longer chapter anyway

[PKL]

I can see Renault over Geitz yeah. Fog of War augmented vision is pretty good in Lloyd's chapter (it allows a 1 turn). It's nice to have a thief with torch (item) or a Mage with Torch staff for it. Revealing Uhai saves a turn too, but I think no one is really entitled to doing that. I think every unit can get there in time.

[General Horace]

I'd say Lowen is better than Fiora. Fiora saves a turn in 19x, and 25, but that's really it. All her other turnshaving can be replicated by other nonflier units in my mind. Lowen is HUGE in chapter 17, and a pretty big part of the earlygame. You need a pretty good hector and like, Dorcas or a good Bartre to hammer the boss to come within a turn of Lowen in 17, and that doesn't always happen. Then there's other stuff like being a paladin on the pirate ship that's pretty much exclusive, and Dread Isle itself.

edit: lyn is a pretty awful kishuna killer, she hits the requisite doubling speed at 20/16, which is very unlikey in my experience, and she still needs a crit to do it (although everyone needs crits). Raven is just as poor at it too, mind you, but he has 1-2 range and lyn never doubles anything he doesn't so...

There's also no stopping everyone from feeding Hector all of chapter 31 and just having him do it.

Edited October 20, 2012 by General Horace

[eclipse]

My preferred method of getting rid of Kishuna is Jaffar with a lot of Killing Edges. Then again, I'm crazy.

How often does Karel get recruited? (if it's "never", then I'd argue Renault over him; if people take the time to get him and use him, eh)

[BBM]

Thing is, I'm pretty sure Renault costs turns too.

[MacLovin]

Lowen also has 10 con, which may net him some more boosts with AS.

No AS loss from a steel sword as a cavvy and no AS loss from Hand Axes as a pally.

Also, PKL, hands off.

I'm the Lowen fanboy, remember?

[BBM]

He has the worst SPD though, so not really.

[charlie_]

The only place where Lowen's mediocre growths kick in is killing Lloyd though.

[BBM]

Possibly, but my point was that his lower SPD mitigates his higher CON. The case for Lowen > Kent/Sain is basically just more availability -> higher level- his stats are worse than both of their's.

[BBM]

Possibly, but my point was that his lower SPD mitigates his higher CON. The case for Lowen > Kent/Sain is basically just more availability -> higher level- his stats are worse than both of their's at a similar level.

[charlie_]

Lowen is better in 17-20 though, maybe a little later if Kent and Sain don't have the stats they need before promotion.

I still say Erk is better than Lucius because he doesn't cost a turn.

[spoiler=Chat log with Eli]<Elieson> Ok

<Elieson> Erk

<Elieson> Takes forever + to hitA staves

<Elieson> Where he pays for his cost

<Elieson> In training him

<Elieson> You are giving him resources that lucius wouldn't be taking from others

<SB> Erk needs no rescources

<SB> He doesn't even need the secret shop

<SB> trust me

<SB> I've done it like 4 times

<Elieson> Time is a resourc

<SB> Not when you have fixed turn chapters

<Elieson> All that time he spends staving

<Elieson> He isn't fighting

<SB> Ok think about it like this

<SB> Yeah

<SB> meaning other people get combat exp

<SB> And he's still getting plenty himself

<SB> Let me just look at something

<Elieson> But wpn exp

<Elieson> You need to draw him away from combat

<Elieson> or

<SB> Chapter 24

<SB> 11 turns of staffspamming

<Elieson> Make ninils dance for him

<SB> Um

<SB> I mean

<SB> 26

<SB> Or 25

<SB> no

<SB> 27

<SB> *26

<SB> keep looking at eliwood mode numbers

<SB> so 11 there

<SB> 15 in 28

<SB> 20 in 28x

<SB> plus whatever he got before then

<SB> You don't need Ninian in any of those chapters

<SB> to accomplish any major objectives

<SB> And Mend staves give plenty of wexp

<SB> and if you say lucius has higher magic, erk's is high enough

<SB> I can regularly get Erk to level 17ish

<SB> by desert

<SB> and promote him there

<SB> and from staffspamming he gets all the way up to level 20

<SB> by the time the massive range matters

<SB> and 10 warp range is plenty

<SB> which is what he averages at 17/20 btw

<Elieson> Hmm

<Elieson> Ok

<SB> Also, you can get Erk to ORKOing levels for most enemies for the rest of the game

<SB> solely in 15

<SB> if you get him 3 levels or so

<Elieson> If the warp range is enough

<Elieson> (which I've never tested)

<SB> yeah

<Elieson> Then, I can see it

<SB> plus there's afas drops

<SB> if nobody else wants them

<SB> also Lucius only wins by 2 warp range anyway

Edited October 21, 2012 by Serious Bananas

[BBM]

But if teams that have Lowen beat even the best teams that don't have him by at least 1 turn, that implies that most teams lose out to Lowen teams by at least 2 turns, so probably at least half the drafters can recruit Lucius without losing any turns.

[Refa]

Lowen is better in 17-20 though, maybe a little later if Kent and Sain don't have the stats they need before promotion.

I still say Erk is better than Lucius because he doesn't cost a turn.

Feeding Erk kills that could go to people like Lowen, Kent/Sain, Florina, etc. does not sound as cost-free as you make it out to seem.

Also you'd have to have a pretty great team to make Lucius cost turns in Marcusless.