The concept of fanfiction

[Life]

Have you thought that the reason these characters appear to behave in these ways you criticize is because it's what the author intended, and something they and the community they contribute towards value as good?

Of course but it comes across as shallow and artificial. Which defeats the whole purpose of telling an engaging story because it isn't engaging.

If you want to create a backing for a character (as in the reader supports the character), trying to make them perfect isn't the way to go. You want to create support for them through pathos, logos or ethos but without going overboard.

Take Bella from Twilight. Why is she a shallow character? Her personality is completely cardboard. All she thinks about is Edward but she does so in such an obsessive way that you get the impression that she doesn't care about anything else. It's very possible to make Bella a good character with this as a basis but the problem then comes when she gets portrayed as always being right and the audience is forced to back her in everything. Suddenly, a reader sees a psychotic girl who belongs in a mental asylum rather than the heroine of the story. All because of the writing.

Twilight to me is a fanfic about the supernatural. It's not written well and it resembles a wet dream on paper more than it does a book. Sadly, most fanfics are the same way (there's a lot here in the writing corner that are the same but I don't feel like searching them out).

EDIT: When I talk about supporting a character through pathos, the textbook perfect examples are Baby from "Lullabies for Little Criminals" and Lyle Henderson from "Mercy Among the Children". Read either of the books and you'll see how to properly sympathize with a character (first time I ever cried during reading a book was during "Mercy Among the Children").

It's not just putting the character in bad situations. It's having them try to prevail only to fall way short and attempt to pick up the pieces of their scattered lives. That's where true pathos comes from.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Life

[Original Alear]

Take Game of Thrones. Fantastic book that takes place in the Medieval times. Now why is it fantastic? Because the author isn't trying to drive home a point (AKA a specific pairing). It's completely believable (aside from the slightly magical parts). His characters act like real people with actual moral decisions. Take Eddard Stark. Does he back the new king even though he knows that the kid has no real claim to the throne (and is one of the few to know that) or does he go the treasonous route and advocate the late king's brother?

I have never once read a fanfiction where a conflicted character has had to make such a difficult decision. Most of the stuff in fanfictions are "should I wear the blue dress or red skirt" or more specifically, "do I act awkward in front of my perfect man or just tell him I love him because he loves me and we're so perfect for one another and blah blah blah".

Game of Thrones is War of the Roses fanfiction.

My face is straight :|

(EDIT: And fuck that reviewer who compared it to TH White after reading like, book 1)

Edited September 12, 2012 by L1049

[Esau of Isaac]

Of course but it comes across as shallow and artificial. Which defeats the whole purpose of telling an engaging story because it isn't engaging.

It's not engaging for you. To me, the majority of several genres of music sound beyond awful. It doesn't change that it's what the artist was going for when they put it together, and that it caters towards an audience that actively requests that sort of material.

For some this sort of material is precisely what they are looking for. That's why there are websites chock full of these sorts of fiction. If you don't like it, that's fine, and if it doesn't adhere to the majority of established mechanics that we find in our most quintessential literature, that's okay too. It's erroneous to assume that these are all shit without merit, however. There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone preferring "Twilight" over "The Grapes of Wrath."

[Life]

It's not engaging for you. To me, the majority of several genres of music sound beyond awful. It doesn't change that it's what the artist was going for when they put it together, and that it caters towards an audience that actively requests that sort of material.

For some this sort of material is precisely what they are looking for. That's why there are websites chock full of these sorts of fiction. If you don't like it, that's fine, and if it doesn't adhere to the majority of established mechanics that we find in our most quintessential literature, that's okay too. It's erroneous to assume that these are all shit without merit, however. There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone preferring "Twilight" over "The Grapes of Wrath."

Sure but it doesn't make these stories good. I personally enjoy The Da Vinci Code even though it is badly written.

On a literary scale, fanfictions are not good. What erks me is when people claim that they are (and there's a couple people on this site who do so).

[CrashGordon94]

Sure but it doesn't make these stories good. I personally enjoy The Da Vinci Code even though it is badly written.

It does, to those people who enjoy them.

There is no objective quality of "good" for fiction anyway.

Edited September 12, 2012 by CrashGordon94

[Samias]

I don't think that all fanfiction is bad. Fanfictions are rarely ever great because of a lack of editing that often plagues them, but a good fanfiction writer can use established source material to push up their idea beyond original fiction, as far as unskilled writing goes. However, the OP is right in that 90% of all fictions are motivated by shipping two characters. Romance is already a very lowbrow genre with very few good books with believable writing. If anything, the best romances come out of books that would never be placed in the romance genre. But not everyone is looking for a literary classic; They want to read something indulgent and easy reading. As far as Twilight goes, I'm sure a lot of fans also realize the books are shallow, but really want to root for Edward or Jacob. 50 Shades of Grey is an erotic what-if of Bella x Edward with name changes but the quality is enough to inspire legions of bored housewives.

[tenkiforecast]

I don't think that all fanfiction is bad. Fanfictions are rarely ever great because of a lack of editing that often plagues them, but a good fanfiction writer can use established source material to push up their idea beyond original fiction, as far as unskilled writing goes. However, the OP is right in that 90% of all fictions are motivated by shipping two characters. Romance is already a very lowbrow genre with very few good books with believable writing. If anything, the best romances come out of books that would never be placed in the romance genre. But not everyone is looking for a literary classic; They want to read something indulgent and easy reading. As far as Twilight goes, I'm sure a lot of fans also realize the books are shallow, but really want to root for Edward or Jacob. 50 Shades of Grey is an erotic what-if of Bella x Edward with name changes but the quality is enough to inspire legions of bored housewives.

And a live reading by TeamFourStar and the Nostalgia Critic that is one of the funniest things on the internet. XD

In a sense, all the published Star Trek/Star Wars Expanded Universes are fanfiction. The same sort of rules apply, there is a lot that is bad, but there are some that are very high quality. Timothy Zhan's Star Wars books are easily the best of the Star Wars Expanded Universe. In contrast, the "Destiny of the Force" series where Jacen turns lolevuls is just pitiful, because we can't have any sort of gray in the Star Wars universe.

[Gunlord]

Timothy Zahn...he wrote Admiral Thrawn, right? Love that guy :D

Back to the point you raised, though, I think you're right in that Star Wars/Star Trek books are essentially fanfiction, but the primary difference (I may be wrong about this) is that those books are okay'd by the original creators/owners of the properties. Most fanfiction, however, is just written by fans and put up on the 'net without the original authors or creators giving their permission to do so. Sometimes authors mind, and other times they don't, but it's 'unofficial' almost all the time, in any case.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Gunlord

[Rapier]

Sure but it doesn't make these stories good. I personally enjoy The Da Vinci Code even though it is badly written.

On a literary scale, fanfictions are not good. What erks me is when people claim that they are (and there's a couple people on this site who do so).

You don't need top-notch art to actually admire it. A fanfiction can be good, just not as good as, say, a true book (and even that is ambiguous - Twilight is a true book, but there's a lot of negative receptions and views around it). We have to take note that most of the fanfic writters just do it for fun, they aren't experienced on writting or narrating a good story... unless they take it to another level and start improving. "To be good at something you need to suck at it first", and fanfiction is the most basic level of writting.

[Original Alear]

You don't need top-notch art to actually admire it. A fanfiction can be good, just not as good as, say, a true book (and even that is ambiguous - Twilight is a true book, but there's a lot of negative receptions and views around it). We have to take note that most of the fanfic writters just do it for fun, they aren't experienced on writting or narrating a good story... unless they take it to another level and start improving. "To be good at something you need to suck at it first", and fanfiction is the most basic level of writting.

Don't know why fanfiction as a genre would be referred to as the most basic level of writing. I'm not even sure its plausible to claim its the most basic level of creative writing.

I mean, if you're setting out willing to accept that your first draft, or even your finished product, is going to suck, there's no reason why fanfiction is easier than anything else.

Here lies a shitty epitaph,

Its quality by all fanfics surpassed.

[Esau of Isaac]

Sure but it doesn't make these stories good. I personally enjoy The Da Vinci Code even though it is badly written.

Then it's good to you. Why sweat the details? Noting that it is good and bad writing is just as normative an evaluation as saying you enjoy something. The only difference is that you have more generally accepted practices to use as reference. At the end of the day it's not ultimately relevant whether it was good writing or bad writing, but simply if you received the utility from it you had hoped.

I have little appreciation for multiple genres of music, but I'm not going to say they're an invalid form of expression or of objectively lesser value. There's no way to possibly quantify what "good" music actually sounds like. In that sense a little toe-tapper some kid puts together can be just as impacting to me --or moreso-- than Beethoven's 9th.

[Rapier]

I mean, if you're setting out willing to accept that your first draft, or even your finished product, is going to suck, there's no reason why fanfiction is easier than anything else.

I never said every first draft is going to suck. I'm just saying that, compared to the experts who actually write for a living, fanfic writters generally have less experience and knowledge since most of them are strangers to writting or reading. Still, fanfics can be good, and the writters can improve.

[Original Alear]

I never said every first draft is going to suck. I'm just saying that, compared to the experts who actually write for a living, fanfic writters generally have less experience and knowledge since most of them are strangers to writting or reading. Still, fanfics can be good, and the writters can improve.

I didn't represent you as saying every first draft is going to suck dude @_@

But you did explicitly state that in order to become good, you need to start sucky, and that was one of the two points I was disagreeing with (the other point I was disagreeing with is that fanfiction is the most basic level of writing).

Edited September 14, 2012 by L1049

[Fala]

Love fanfiction. Love it to the death. BUT! I am willing to admit that it has it's flaws such as:

Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Rabid Yaoi Fangirls

Wish Fufillment fanfiction.

But it has good things like:

A rewrite of a story that is lackluster or dumb.

A development of a character that wasn't focused all that much.

[Rapier]

I didn't represent you as saying every first draft is going to suck dude @_@

But you did explicitly state that in order to become good, you need to start sucky, and that was one of the two points I was disagreeing with (the other point I was disagreeing with is that fanfiction is the most basic level of writing).

Oh well, sorry about that. When I typed it, I was thinking about "People who are pros have started as novices at some point". XD

[CT075]

personally i don't have a problem with fanfiction in and of itself

it just so happens that fanfiction tends to follow the 9:1 ration of crap:good stuff

and so i generally brace myself for terribleness

but yeah there can be really good fanfiction (ie super robot wars)

[Lux Aeterna]

Well, I have a generally cynical view of fanfiction, too. I've seen the share of shit, and I've very rarely been treated to a good piece.

But... You're limiting it too much--the scope. You know how you compared it to sprites? Yeah, it applies to original fiction, too. Here. http://www.fictionpress.com/s/3058331/1/Winter-Rose

I pulled that off the front page of the "romance" section after a quick scan. And it's literally just "oh yes I love you mwah mwah." There's a lot worse out there, but this is no good either. The thing is, a lot of people will just write fiction to fulfill some fantasy of theirs and think, "This is genius. I SHOULD SHARE THIS WITH THE WORLD!" So it's like you said, about the pairings.

But, artists (and I consider writing part of that) in a novice environment generally have four symptoms: one, they want to be creative; two, they want to immediately receive compliments for their work; three, they are, to some degree, blind to their flaws; and four, they are very sensitive when said flaws are pointed out. I think you will find out I just described most of DeviantArt, FF.com, FF.net, and this site's creative section. But since self-publishing is so easy now, you see a lot of this.

I guess what I'm trying to say is you should expect to only see mostly bad shit, but you gotta look for the good stuff.

Also, I admire Furet for being so upfront about his ways. I wish someone would tear apart /my/ stories like that, rather than "oh, this is really good!" That gets me nowhere. I've acted blunt elsewhere about storywriting and I got yelled at for it. So I'm glad someone else realizes that compliments do not help one improve. There is a difference between legitimate compliments, sugarcoating, and flat-out lies about a person's talent. If I don't think a person has potential, I'm not just going to tell them that I think so.

The only time criticism becomes unnecessarily harsh is when it strays directly into flaming territory, such as "You suck for doing this." That's as dumb as sugarcoating. But if all a person does is point out what they believe to be flaws, they're golden.

Anyway, the general quality of novice art will be like this until people get spines and learn that they will not be geniuses from the get-go.

[CT075]

too big of a scope can lead to weird errors when defining variables *shot for coding reference*

are you implying that i should instinctively cringe at all original writing because it's likely to be bad?

[Original Alear]

Oh well, sorry about that. When I typed it, I was thinking about "People who are pros have started as novices at some point". XD

When all is said and done, I think it's fair to say that people usually have to start out not so great and get better...but I'm not sure I know enough about literature to say always. And I've definitely experienced a number of authors where I feel like later output was not as good as early output. Maybe because they got their best ideas for a story first.

personally i don't have a problem with fanfiction in and of itself

it just so happens that fanfiction tends to follow the 9:1 ration of crap:good stuff

and so i generally brace myself for terribleness

but yeah there can be really good fanfiction (ie super robot wars)

In a way, super robot wars isn't so much fanfiction, as something that turns the things it was based on into fanfiction of Super Robot Wars, retroactively.

The evidence I have for this is that, when someone asks me to name a robot I didn't think was cool, I can never think of one.

[Lux Aeterna]

are you implying that i should instinctively cringe at all original writing because it's likely to be bad?

Original fiction only has a slightly higher chance of being better--and that's because there is originality required to make at least some semblance of a world (doesn't stop some people from just making a vacuum). But original fiction also closely follows Sturgeon's Law (that 9:1 ratio you were talking about). Art in general, on a lower level, is something where one must expect works that are "bad" (of course, then we reach objectivity vs. subjectivity). I think fanfiction in particular just has the stigma of being full of rabid fangirls and inexperienced writers because a writer's fanfiction juxtaposes itself with the original work it is based off of--so it looks even worse by comparison... While most original fiction are self-referential works, so it is more easily judged on its own.

[Party Moth]

Also, I admire Furet for being so upfront about his ways. I wish someone would tear apart /my/ stories like that, rather than "oh, this is really good!" That gets me nowhere. I've acted blunt elsewhere about storywriting and I got yelled at for it. So I'm glad someone else realizes that compliments do not help one improve.

I agree with this. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and accept the hard facts of critique if you want to improve your work. People like Furet are harsh, yes, but I'd take one of him over two dozen sugarcoaters any day of the week.

[CT075]

the problem with fanfiction vs published fiction is that it's slightly harder to publish

that is, fanfiction is (almost by definition) unpublished and therefore unedited

self-publishing aside (which, if the work is legitimately bad in all senses of the word, leads to things like ridiculous money lost), someone has to vet published fiction

and i have a bad opinion of fanfiction v other fictions because i have personally experienced sturgeon's law (also i can't believe LUX was the first one to pick up what i was referring to with the 90% ;/ ) in regards to fanfiction where most of the original fiction i've read was pretty good

[Lux Aeterna]

That depends on your definition of publishing. I consider publishing simply as "releasing a work to the general public," in which case fanfiction.net and fictionpress.com are publishing sites.

But, it doesn't necessarily mean that original fiction is better even if you look at in regards to publishing for profit. It merely means that one is more likely to find good fiction because the array of fiction that is attempted to be published is parsed and only the better among them are sent out for sale. It's important not to equate what you see with what exists as a whole.

I'm flattered by your confidence in my knowledge. But, Sturgeon's Law exists in original fiction, too: http://www.fictionpress.com/

Edited September 15, 2012 by Lux Aeterna

[Original Alear]

I'm not sure if I've read any contemporary fanfiction that is "genuinely better" (whatever that means, but as opposed to "ironically better" or something) than the thing upon which it was based. But I'm not sure there's any fanfiction that's been written that, if it had not been written, would have lead to better original fiction being written, or vice versa. And I'm not sure I've ever read a fanfiction with incredibly built-up expectations only to find it is horrible crap. I think most of the blame for a reader wasting their time reading a fanfic they don't like lies with the reader. But there are situations (school while in one's minority, an extremely popular book) where I might not blame the reader if they are reading a classic or contemporary but award winning book they don't enjoy. I guess 50 Shades of Grey might be the rule-breaker since that's apparently more or less twilight fanfiction. But if you don't enjoy it being read by Gilbert Gottfried, you have no soul.

But the blame DEFINITELY lies with the reader 4 bein a lame-o if they don't like Paradise Lost mirite!!?!!!

and i have a bad opinion of fanfiction v other fictions because i have personally experienced sturgeon's law (also i can't believe LUX was the first one to pick up what i was referring to with the 90% ;/ ) in regards to fanfiction where most of the original fiction i've read was pretty good

I "picked up" on sturgeon's law before you even posted in this thread, AND I bashed it!!! Because I am just that disagreeable.

http://serenesforest...0

is too cool 4 shul

chai motherfuckers chai motherfuckers still

[Eltoshen]

i think my biggest problem with fanfiction is that sometimes authors try too hard to get into the details that i get bored before any plot actually occurs.