The concept of fanfiction

[Florete]

There was a time where I considered writing some fanfics and even had some good ideas for a few, but I figured I'd have a hard time being taken seriously and just never got to trying. Plus I'm really lazy.

At that same time I was also somewhat into reading fanfics and, while I found some that I actually thought were pretty fantastic, it is unfortunately true that many were just plain bad. But while that is true here, it holds true for many things. I much appreciate good fanfiction when I can find it, and the best ones actually feel like they could be canon. If you can bring yourself to see it like that where applicable, it can be a nice way of getting extra insight or greater focus on something you feel didn't get enough attention originally, or just a sequel/epilogue to a story you really love and were sad to see the end of. Obviously, at the end of the day, none of it is really canon and you have to accept that, but hey, if you can't look past that, why read any in the first place?

Sooo, in a more direct response to the OP...people are fickle. Either avoid it altogether or learn to find the good ones and just ignore those who can't be assed to get better.

[Loki Laufeyson]

A good writer, whether it's for fanfiction or not, needs to be able to write characters that s/he hates, dislikes, or has no interest in well. Otherwise the story will probably fail. And unfortunately, not everyone does that. I've read a ton of stories that - may - have been on the better end of fanfiction, but then they completely screwed up by misrepresenting or twisting the character of a "potential rival for a love interest".

This is why I hate so many Tact/Lyn stories. (And to a lesser extent, Kent/Lyn and Hector/Lyn stories.) There is absolutely no fucking need to turn Rath into a jerk to make your pairing work. :/

Totes. Say if i did write that A Song of Ice and Fire fic (which will never happen. Ever.), and Im writing a POV of a character i really dont like. (Cersei) I have to include it in order for the rest of the story to be consistent. She has to be in character and depending on the hypothetical timeframe, Cersei's character will change slightly. Because when you are doing this, you have to take canon into account and how the characters' development corresponds with such. If i wrote a chapter with Cersei literally and figuratively getting shit on by everyone around her just because i dont like the character, means shit writing!

That whole Ron the Death Eater concept sucks too. Which is what you are referring to with the Rath scenario. Make Rath an insufferable asshole in order to make the OTP work. Ahsagdhsd fucken hate that.

and the best ones actually feel like they could be canon. If you can bring yourself to see it like that where applicable, it can be a nice way of getting extra insight or greater focus on something you feel didn't get enough attention originally, or just a sequel/epilogue to a story you really love and were sad to see the end of.

Mhm. I read a CardCaptor Sakura one that was like that. (like ten years ago) And it focused on the Yue/Sakura dynamic. Not really a ship as much as their interaction. Everything that was going on in the story was basically what could happen in the canon (and during canon timeline no less) and it was a rather light hearted and pleasant read.

[shadowofchaos]

Mhm. I read a CardCaptor Sakura one that was like that. (like ten years ago) And it focused on the Yue/Sakura dynamic. Not really a ship as much as their interaction. Everything that was going on in the story was basically what could happen in the canon (and during canon timeline no less) and it was a rather light hearted and pleasant read.

asdfkjapojfdkoahfodpjapo.

Why the hell did you have to mention that? XD

Now I'm gonna go and look for it... as long as the material is of the same nature as the manga/anime.

Sooo, in a more direct response to the OP...people are fickle. Either avoid it altogether or learn to find the good ones and just ignore those who can't be assed to get better.

I guess that's what I'm gonna do then. Hopefully I'll just find one that'll make me say "that was a good read" and then leave it at that.

I was just honestly curious to how people normally viewed it compared to my only sample of the concept, which was "they're horrible".

[Loki Laufeyson]

Now I'm gonna go and look for it... as long as the material is of the same nature as the manga/anime.

I cant remember the title or who wrote it. And yes it was of the same nature as the canon. It was like 2002 when i read that and it was on someones little fansite. Good luck trying to find it, mang!

[Gunlord]

Hmm...it seems my friend Anacybele has put up quite the spirited effort (and has mentioned me, too). Thus, I feel like putting my two cents in support of her position...yeah, I know I rarely post, but I hope nobody will mind if I shake the dust off myself and make an attempt to say something that's (hopefully) somewhat cogent. XD

Well, first off, most of the folks in this thread--Anacybele, Crazy Foxie, Rehab, and Iris in particular--have made most excellent points which already encompass most of what I could say. However, since my friend Anacybele has made such a strong effort, let me add a couple of points as well.

I'll begin by doing something which may perhaps seem out of character for me: Defending shippers and yaoi fangirls. Yes, shadowofchaos, you're right, much of what they write isn't very good (though I must applaud you for being not giving them trouble and being tolerant and respectful of their views). However, put yourself in their shoes for a moment: First off, many of them are young--you can't really expect them to be paragons of literary achievement. Secondly, more importantly, and more germane to your question of why people write fanfic, they put out those kinds of fics because it's fun for them. Again, I can understand why you'd think shipping fic #7593202 or yaoi adventure #482057 might be boring, and why you'd rather see more cerebral examinations of underused characters or unexplored plot points. But again, think of it from the perspective of a young person. They might've had a bad day in school or college, they might be going through romantic troubles, or just generally being stressed out IRL. Going home and reading a pedestrian but appealing yaoi fic might relieve some stress for a young girl overburdened wth schoolwork or whatever, and reading a cute, fluffy shipping fic about a male and female falling in love and having a family might make a young boy feel better about being rejected by a girl or his parents fighting or whatever. As mediocre as a lot of fanfiction might be, if it helps put a smile on the faces of people having a tough day, it can't be all bad, right? :)

Secondly, to reiterate what Foxie, Anacybele, and Iris said, there *is* a lot of fanfiction beyond shipping and yaoi, fanfiction that does "explore some possibilities of the character's backstory," as you said. Anacybele already mentioned Wayward Son, so I won't repeat that recommendation (and besides, it's bad form for an author to pimp out his own work...or so I've been told XD) but I can point you to one or two examples of fanfic you might find considerably more compelling. How about my brother-man LordEphidel's "Ephidel's Path" (here: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=33832 ) about what happened to Ephidel when the Dragon's Gate opened? Or how about a wee bit of *poetry?* Check out my brother-man Hawki's poem about Serenes:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7449252/1/Serenes

So, to conclude, I think that even the 'plebian' kinds of fic has its legitimate uses, and even if it's still not to your tastes, I hope the pair of examples I've shown you prove that fanfiction really can rise above that sort of thing, even if only occasionally. :D

Well, that does it for me...*waddles back to his cave to to return to slumber*

:Kappa: :Kappa:

[Anouleth]

The problem with fanfics is that fanfic writers are lazy. They'll write 200,000 words on a potterfic, but at any point, will they go back over their work and improve it? No. Hence, most fanfics are stuck in permanent first draft mode.

[Anacybele]

Hmm...it seems my friend Anacybele has put up quite the spirited effort (and has mentioned me, too). Thus, I feel like putting my two cents in support of her position...yeah, I know I rarely post, but I hope nobody will mind if I shake the dust off myself and make an attempt to say something that's (hopefully) somewhat cogent. XD

Well, first off, most of the folks in this thread--Anacybele, Crazy Foxie, Rehab, and Iris in particular--have made most excellent points which already encompass most of what I could say. However, since my friend Anacybele has made such a strong effort, let me add a couple of points as well.

I'll begin by doing something which may perhaps seem out of character for me: Defending shippers and yaoi fangirls. Yes, shadowofchaos, you're right, much of what they write isn't very good (though I must applaud you for being not giving them trouble and being tolerant and respectful of their views). However, put yourself in their shoes for a moment: First off, many of them are young--you can't really expect them to be paragons of literary achievement. Secondly, more importantly, and more germane to your question of why people write fanfic, they put out those kinds of fics because it's fun for them. Again, I can understand why you'd think shipping fic #7593202 or yaoi adventure #482057 might be boring, and why you'd rather see more cerebral examinations of underused characters or unexplored plot points. But again, think of it from the perspective of a young person. They might've had a bad day in school or college, they might be going through romantic troubles, or just generally being stressed out IRL. Going home and reading a pedestrian but appealing yaoi fic might relieve some stress for a young girl overburdened wth schoolwork or whatever, and reading a cute, fluffy shipping fic about a male and female falling in love and having a family might make a young boy feel better about being rejected by a girl or his parents fighting or whatever. As mediocre as a lot of fanfiction might be, if it helps put a smile on the faces of people having a tough day, it can't be all bad, right? :)

Secondly, to reiterate what Foxie, Anacybele, and Iris said, there *is* a lot of fanfiction beyond shipping and yaoi, fanfiction that does "explore some possibilities of the character's backstory," as you said. Anacybele already mentioned Wayward Son, so I won't repeat that recommendation (and besides, it's bad form for an author to pimp out his own work...or so I've been told XD) but I can point you to one or two examples of fanfic you might find considerably more compelling. How about my brother-man LordEphidel's "Ephidel's Path" (here: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=33832 ) about what happened to Ephidel when the Dragon's Gate opened? Or how about a wee bit of *poetry?* Check out my brother-man Hawki's poem about Serenes:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7449252/1/Serenes

So, to conclude, I think that even the 'plebian' kinds of fic has its legitimate uses, and even if it's still not to your tastes, I hope the pair of examples I've shown you prove that fanfiction really can rise above that sort of thing, even if only occasionally. :D

Well, that does it for me...*waddles back to his cave to to return to slumber*

:Kappa: :Kappa:

Ah, Gunlord, you are too kind. ^^

And to be honest, you are absolutely right. I never thought of any of those points you made about the authors of those shipping and yaoi fics. Now I think I can tolerate them more myself.

And yes, it is bad form for an author to pimp out his/her work. lol

Also, thanks to this thread, I believe I've finally found the title of my FE7 fic! The Bonds of the Beloved. Yes, that's perfect, and has such a nice ring to it!

Edited September 10, 2012 by Anacybele

[Original Alear]

Fanfiction that is about shipping seem to be pretty easy to spot from the title and author synopsis for the most part. Maybe I'm wrong though. I can't think of any fanfics I've read recently that weren't good for anything besides making me laugh.

Oh wait. Super Robot Wars is an amazing fanfic.

It's probably kinda pedantic to bring up something like the Divine Comedy, but I think it's worth a reminder that fanfiction/various fan byproducts take many forms.

It's not pedantic to bring up the Divine Comedy, but it is pedantic to discuss whether it is or is not fanfiction (which I am very tempted to do, insofar as one person can discuss something with himself).

Hi Rey~! Well, you're right, 90% of everything is crap, and this is so very true with regards to fanfiction. I've been reading fanfiction since I was... 9, maybe? I've gotten very good at finding the good out of the bad. Had I not ever read good fanfiction, I'd probably have a very low opinion on it, too.

The only thing that Sturgeon's law accurately describes is Sturgeon's law. 90% of it is crap.

[Nanami Touko]

Oh wait. Super Robot Wars is an amazing fanfic.

The ONLY amazing fanfiction!

[MacLovin]

I think bad fanfics generally involve yaoi/yuri, plot device OCs, and shitty changing of characters.

SRW is the best, and it's also endorsed.

[Party Moth]

The problem with fanfics is that fanfic writers are lazy. They'll write 200,000 words on a potterfic, but at any point, will they go back over their work and improve it? No. Hence, most fanfics are stuck in permanent first draft mode.

Good grief, this is the truth right here. I wrote a good 150,000 words for a novel about five years ago, and now I'm finally turning around and looking at it, scrunching my eyes in pain at the level of writing the first draft has. This is why getting beta-readers and multiple opinions has become so important to me lately. I wrote a short piece earlier this month, and got it slammed by some proofreaders who saw logical fallacies in it I would have never caught. Multiple drafts can be a lifesaver towards a work's quality.

As for the concept of fanfiction...it's really whatever the author wants it to be. It strongly depends on the goal of the author, their level of experience, how they intend to accomplish it...and often times it just doesn't come out the way they'd like others to see it. A comedic humor fic is generally easier to pull off due to the fact that humor doesn't always require eloquent tastes to be enjoyed. An adventure novel can be enjoyed for the simple escape and thrill of getting away from a hard day at work. A shipping fic is usually the desire of the author seeing the characters together, though a truly romantic fanfic is something you will not easily come by. Personally, I believe romance is one of the most difficult genres to write, particularly due to the fact that the balance of smut and cheesiness vs reality's gravity and conflict never seem to mesh properly for most writers. It's just a difficult genre to pull off.

Now for higher quality works...I've seen a lot of oneshot fics that are quite intriguing in their concepts. Longer works tend to suffer from a lack of consistency, but there are true gems out there. The biggest factor is whether you want to dig through the thousands of self-inserts and Mary Sues to get to them, which I can completely understand if someone would rather not do it. For me personally, it's worth the extra insight another person may bring to light.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Duels at Dawn

[Rapier]

I usually like stories with OCs more than stories with canon characters, actually. When someone tries to roleplay as, say, Eliwood, I expect them to stick to the character and write in a way that he still looks like himself on the original script, as he was intended to be. That's why I'm very critic to hacks like Elibian Nights (plot-wise), and fanfiction also apply.

I don't mind seeing (reading, in that case) IkexElincia, as long as it makes sense. As long as Ike's motives for loving Elincia stay IC, and her motives for loving Ike are also IC, I have no problem with it. Of course, a story made only of ship ship ship is still bad. =P

Edited September 11, 2012 by Rapier

[Anacybele]

You might like my fics then, Rapier. I honestly do my very best to keep Ike and Elincia in-character while having a relationship, and with a co-author that writes better than anyone I know of, even some published authors, I can assure you that the writing quality is not bad in the least.

But of course, you don't have to read anything if you don't want to. This is just my two cents on your post.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Anacybele

[Rapier]

Mhm. I'll look for them as soon as I have free time. =P

Also, how did I miss this post?

The problem with fanfics is that fanfic writers are lazy. They'll write 200,000 words on a potterfic, but at any point, will they go back over their work and improve it? No. Hence, most fanfics are stuck in permanent first draft mode.

Exactly. No one starts being awesome at writting. As someone already said, there can be geniuses or just plain people who want to have fun, "To be good at something you must suck at it first". The problem is when fanfic writers completely refuse to improve their skills and the quality of their stories, even after getting critic and advice. Ignorance is a bliss, arrogance is a curse.

However, we can't really blame the fanfic writers if they just want to have fun and not take any of this seriously... It is their right to have fun.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Rapier

[Anacybele]

True, some people just want to have fun. You can't blame them for that.

Oh, and Rapier, if you do read some of my stuff, you should know that several of the stories occur on the same timeline. You'll find said timeline on my fanfiction.net profile (EmblemQueen). Oh, and another reason you might especially like Dawn of Darkness is for its large amount of OCs.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Anacybele

[Life]

Oh, and Rapier, if you do read some of my stuff, you should know that several of the stories occur on the same timeline. You'll find said timeline on my fanfiction.net profile (EmblemQueen). Oh, and another reason you might especially like Dawn of Darkness is for its large amount of OCs.

Eh... you know my opinion on your story. Pretty much had you in tears over it. Wondering if you managed to rewrite it in such a way that it doesn't read like shit.

Fanfictions? Let me put it this way.

Take Game of Thrones. Fantastic book that takes place in the Medieval times. Now why is it fantastic? Because the author isn't trying to drive home a point (AKA a specific pairing). It's completely believable (aside from the slightly magical parts). His characters act like real people with actual moral decisions. Take Eddard Stark. Does he back the new king even though he knows that the kid has no real claim to the throne (and is one of the few to know that) or does he go the treasonous route and advocate the late king's brother?

I have never once read a fanfiction where a conflicted character has had to make such a difficult decision. Most of the stuff in fanfictions are "should I wear the blue dress or red skirt" or more specifically, "do I act awkward in front of my perfect man or just tell him I love him because he loves me and we're so perfect for one another and blah blah blah".

What I'm trying to get at is that fanfictions have no real depth within the characters. The majority of them are shallow because the author isn't skilled enough at writing to give their character a 3-dimensional personality.

[Anacybele]

Eh... you know my opinion on your story. Pretty much had you in tears over it. Wondering if you managed to rewrite it in such a way that it doesn't read like shit.

1. This is not the place to be insulting or even critiquing my work.

2. For the record, I have rewritten part of the first chapter since then and I'm going to rewrite more of it.

[Rapier]

Eh... you know my opinion on your story. Pretty much had you in tears over it. Wondering if you managed to rewrite it in such a way that it doesn't read like shit.

Fanfictions? Let me put it this way.

Take Game of Thrones. Fantastic book that takes place in the Medieval times. Now why is it fantastic? Because the author isn't trying to drive home a point (AKA a specific pairing). It's completely believable (aside from the slightly magical parts). His characters act like real people with actual moral decisions. Take Eddard Stark. Does he back the new king even though he knows that the kid has no real claim to the throne (and is one of the few to know that) or does he go the treasonous route and advocate the late king's brother?

I have never once read a fanfiction where a conflicted character has had to make such a difficult decision. Most of the stuff in fanfictions are "should I wear the blue dress or red skirt" or more specifically, "do I act awkward in front of my perfect man or just tell him I love him because he loves me and we're so perfect for one another and blah blah blah".

What I'm trying to get at is that fanfictions have no real depth within the characters. The majority of them are shallow because the author isn't skilled enough at writing to give their character a 3-dimensional personality.

It is hard when you try to compare a young and/or inexperienced person to an old profissional who's made a best seller and is acclaimed a lot. Fanfic writers are hardly experts on writting, and they will always seem amateurish compared to G.R.R.M no matter how much training they get from King Kai.

[Life]

1. This is not the place to be insulting or even critiquing my work.

2. For the record, I have rewritten part of the first chapter since then and I'm going to rewrite more of it.

1. You missed the point by a country mile.

2. Yippie.

3. If you're going to respond to something, respond to what's relevant. Like the REST of my response.

It is hard when you try to compare a young and/or inexperienced person to an old profissional who's made a best seller and is acclaimed a lot. Fanfic writers are hardly experts on writting, and they will always seem amateurish compared to G.R.R.M no matter how much training they get from King Kai.

No kidding but the point that I'm trying to make is that no character is inherently good or inherently bad. In fact, that happens with all writers. A good writer has flawed characters and only tells the truth. A bad writer has perfect characters. You'll see that a lot in fanfiction.

I'm an advocate of the idea that characters drive a story, not the plot. And I've read enough in my lifetime that I feel I can comment on this stuff, along with a BA in Lit.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Dat Kumtah

[Loki Laufeyson]

This also isnt the place to needlessly plug your work.

What I'm trying to get at is that fanfictions have no real depth within the characters. The majority of them are shallow because the author isn't skilled enough at writing to give their character a 3-dimensional personality.

Mmhmm. Thats why Mary Sue ends up in the story.

[Anacybele]

This also isnt the place to needlessly plug your work.

Except I only recommended it to one person so far. I don't plan to bring it up again because as I stated earlier, pimping out your own work is bad. I also don't have any reason to post in here anymore, so yeah.

[Life]

Except I only recommended it to one person so far. I don't plan to bring it up again because as I stated earlier, pimping out your own work is bad. I also don't have any reason to post in here anymore, so yeah.

This is a waste of a good post. But it needs to be done before this thread gets derailed.

Look, Ana. This is Serious Discussion. Either you have something to add to the conversation or you get out. Up until now, your posts have been relevant. But the past 4 or so haven't been. I suggest getting back on topic or stop posting here (as in Serious Discussion). Your call.

[Tangerine]

This is a waste of a good post. But it needs to be done before this thread gets derailed.

Look, Ana. This is Serious Discussion. Either you have something to add to the conversation or you get out. Up until now, your posts have been relevant. But the past 4 or so haven't been. I suggest getting back on topic or stop posting here (as in Serious Discussion). Your call.

The meaning behind this post is more or less correct, but it's not your post to make :P. Ask a moderator or me; you're only inviting further thread derailment when you try to enforce the forum rules as a regular member. Very rarely do you guys listen to eachother on such matters!

Anyway, let's keep things on topic, impersonal and semi-intelligent. This is SF's serious discussions, not a debate between politicians! We have standards!

[Anouleth]

Mhm. I'll look for them as soon as I have free time. =P

Also, how did I miss this post?

Exactly. No one starts being awesome at writting. As someone already said, there can be geniuses or just plain people who want to have fun, "To be good at something you must suck at it first". The problem is when fanfic writers completely refuse to improve their skills and the quality of their stories, even after getting critic and advice. Ignorance is a bliss, arrogance is a curse.

However, we can't really blame the fanfic writers if they just want to have fun and not take any of this seriously... It is their right to have fun.

It's not that they don't want to improve. Even if a fanfic writer listens honestly and modestly to criticism and takes it all on board, often their attitude is "make the next one better". Nobody writes good first drafts. Not even the best writers in the world.

[Esau of Isaac]

What I'm trying to get at is that fanfictions have no real depth within the characters. The majority of them are shallow because the author isn't skilled enough at writing to give their character a 3-dimensional personality.

Which is not to say that fanfiction is awful, but that many people who identify as fanfiction writers tend to be of less skill.

Alternatively, or perhaps additionally, it could be said that fanfiction as you are painting it can instead be identified as storytelling of a different form, rather than pure lack of skill. Have you thought that the reason these characters appear to behave in these ways you criticize is because it's what the author intended, and something they and the community they contribute towards value as good?