This is something all of you need to see.

[tenkiforecast]

Back in the 50s, the term "gay" meant really happy.

Ah, how language evolves.

[Freohr Datia]

Yeah a lot of the times I tend to think words only become bad because humans make them bad by thinking they're bad and that there are very few that probably really are bad by their actual definition/meaning... Sometimes I wonder if we just choose random words and say "okay this is bad to say now so don't say it" and suddenly people say it all the time because they like sounding bad x3

[eclipse]

Yet historically it refers to homosexuals, thus, by nature, referring to someone as an annoyance or fool = referring to them as gay = gay is bad.

ITT: Words can't evolve. Here, let me show you an example of word evolution, Hawaiian style.

Hawaii has its own version of slang, and unlike the rest of the US, it probably isn't heard much outside the state. One of the go-to words for a variety of things is "haole". Consider the following two statements:

1. "There's this haole that just opened a burger joint up the street".

2. "Some haole cut me off and ran a red light. Where's the police when you need them?"

The first statement tends to be neutral. Haole, in that case, is taken to mean "someone that's white and definitely not born and raised here". The second one is meant to be an insult. Haole means "all the shit we hate about the continental US, which also implies that the person is white, because we have more creative insults for other nationalities." If we trace the word all the way back to its roots what do we find? Haole translates to "foreigner". Either Hawaii is a self-hating place (because the vast majority of the locals can trace their roots back to the plantations), or the word itself evolved into "stuff from the Mainland, which sometimes includes the stuff that we wish stayed on the Mainland".

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Back in the 50s, the term "gay" meant really happy.

Ah, how language evolves.

because gay people are really happy, duh

[Ein]

ITT: Words can't evolve. Here, let me show you an example of word evolution, Hawaiian style.

Of course words evolve silly. It's just that some choice words, you know the ones, have had negative connotations for so long that even when they do evolve you can't really escape the negative implications of said words.

That's just my two cents. :x

[Esau of Isaac]

Yet historically it refers to homosexuals, thus, by nature, referring to someone as an annoyance or fool = referring to them as gay = gay is bad.

Who cares what it means historically? It's not what it means now in most cases, and the people saying it aren't using it disparagingly towards homosexuals.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

and the people saying it aren't using it disparagingly towards homosexuals.

I'm pretty sure I can prove you wrong, man.

[Teapot]

A faggot is a bundle of kindling.

And is also slang for a cig.

...for those of you who can't be bothered to look up alternative definitions for slur.

Anyway, I don't say any of this shit. Faggot's just not a very pleasant-looking word, and technically, "gay" is the politically-correct way to refer to same-sex relationships - not "homosexual," as the connotation for "homosexual" refers to a period when it was diagnosed as a mental condition. If I'm going to use gay in a sentence, it's going to happen because 1) I like the semi-archaic original definition, 2) the subject in specific is actually gay and not "stupid."

And most people tend to use the terms because they have nothing better to call people. It's like calling people bitches or whatever. Simply nothing better to use.

Edited September 30, 2012 by · j e a l o u s y ·

[Lux Aeterna]

It's a very strange train of thought--to consider things in their historical contexts rather than their contemporary uses. It's also a flawed way of looking at things--in your case, it causes offense because you refuse to recognize the terms' current slang uses. In worse cases, it's what causes prejudice. The stereotype of the United States of us being gun-toting crazy, uneducated people is spawned from historical (and somewhat inaccurate) sources (as well as a gaggle of tourists that represent the country poorly, but that's another story).

... I think the problem with the way you're looking at this is you're singling out a group of insults and automatically labeling them as far more offensive than other insults. But, if you believe these negative terms are hurtful and wrong, then consider...

What about stupid? What about clumsy? What about awkward? These are common insults, and used in a certain context, they can hurt. And sometimes, they are. But in many other contexts they're just used for silly quipping among friends. No one cries out for their disuse. Why, then, is this any different? "Gay" can be used to attach a stigma to a person, but so can "stupid." Maybe you take offense to it because it may feel like a personal affront whenever you hear these terms used. But, before you continue to decry their uses, I must ask why you don't either withdraw your standing (unlikely) or switch to saying that all insulting in all contexts is bad. Because, at this point, you seem to be against the words being used as insults no matter what the context.

For the record, I don't use any of those words. Not because I find them offensive, but because I just use other words--or I find more creative ways to insult people.

[Esau of Isaac]

I'm pretty sure I can prove you wrong, man.

You can prove that in most uses of the term it is being used disparagingly towards homosexuals?

[Caliban of Sycorax]

You can prove that in most uses of the term it is being used disparagingly towards homosexuals?

Maybe I'm biased because I've been called a faggot before, and it's been used in the negative.

Or because people like the Westboro Baptist Church keep spouting things like "God Hates Fags" and "Fags Eat Shit" and keep referring to gay men as faggots.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Hamlet

[Lux Aeterna]

Maybe I'm biased because I've been called a faggot before, and it's been used in the negative.

Or because people like the Westboro Baptist Church keep spouting things like "God Hates Fags" and "Fags Eat Shit" and keep referring to gay men as faggots.

... And you're using them as the representatives of the rest of the people who use the terms? Do you realize how much you are exaggerating when you do that?

He did specify most people, not the odd examples.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Lux Aeterna

[Helios]

Maybe I'm biased because I've been called a faggot before, and it's been used in the negative.

Or because people like the Westboro Baptist Church keep spouting things like "God Hates Fags" and "Fags Eat Shit" and keep referring to gay men as faggots.

Westboro Baptist Church protests against everyone though. They hate Jews, Muslims, Hindus, homosexuals, and also think that Barack Obama is the antichrist. I don't think anyone takes anything they say seriously. Those people are just flat out ignorant.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Westboro Baptist Church protests against everyone though. They hate Jews, Muslims, Hindus, homosexuals, and also think that Barack Obama is the antichrist. I don't think anyone takes anything they say seriously. Those people are just flat out ignorant.

I don't deny it, but a majority of their hate is directed towards the gay community. Their whole reasoning behind protesting soldiers' funerals are because fags are allowed in America so soldiers die because God hates fags. Seriously. I cannot make this shit up.

When your website is called godhatesfags.com I'm pretty sure your hatred is directed at one group.

[Esau of Isaac]

Maybe I'm biased because I've been called a faggot before, and it's been used in the negative.

Or because people like the Westboro Baptist Church keep spouting things like "God Hates Fags" and "Fags Eat Shit" and keep referring to gay men as faggots.

Are you implying that the majority of people who use the term "faggot" towards others disparagingly are members of the Westboro Baptist Church, or the people that specifically referred to you?

If not, then I don't think we're really arguing with one another. I didn't say that there are no people who use it in such a manner, but rather that in its common usage it's not specifically about sexual orientation.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Are you implying that the majority of people who use the term "faggot" towards others disparagingly are members of the Westboro Baptist Church, or the people that specifically referred to you?

If not, then I don't think we're really arguing with one another. I didn't say that there are no people who use it in such a manner, but rather that in its common usage it's not specifically about sexual orientation.

I'm not. Maybe it's because whenever I hear the word I hear it referred to someone who is gay or it's being used in the negative, referring to being gay (aka "Don't be a fag").

[Lux Aeterna]

I'm not. Maybe it's because whenever I hear the word I hear it referred to someone who is gay or it's being used in the negative, referring to being gay (aka "Don't be a fag").

I don't mean to keep cutting in but do you think there could be a difference between what is said and what you hear? I'm pretty sure when people say something like "that's gay" it doesn't mean "that is so homosexual and this fits because homosexuals suck." It just means "that's stupid." Maybe you're hearing it as a personal affront, but it is rarely intended as such.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Lux Aeterna

[Helios]

I don't deny it, but a majority of their hate is directed towards the gay community. Their whole reasoning behind protesting soldiers' funerals are because fags are allowed in America so soldiers die because God hates fags. Seriously. I cannot make this shit up.

When your website is called godhatesfags.com I'm pretty sure your hatred is directed at one group.

They also go to mosques to protest their hatred towards Islam, they wrote a letter to Jews to tell them how God hates them all and that the world will turn against them to destroy them. These guys are just ignorant people man.

[Nova]

All of you point out again and again that those terms aren't always used with hatred towards gay people. And I would be stupid to deny that. But can't you be sensible enough to acknowledge that there are people who are offended by it nevertheless?

I don't want to forbid someone to use these phrases. I'd like them to rethink what they're saying, cause they can cause harm even without the intention.

Another thing: It can be really hard for pubescent kids to find out that they're homosexual when their whole environment implies that being gay is the most undesirable, stupid and lame thing you can think of.

[Esau of Isaac]

All of you point out again and again that those terms aren't always used with hatred towards gay people. And I would be stupid to deny that. But can't you be sensible enough to acknowledge that there are people who are offended by it nevertheless?

Sure, I acknowledge that there are people who are offended by their use. If they point it out I'll likely refrain from use around them.

I'll still believe the offense they take to be a waste on their part, though.

Another thing: It can be really hard for pubescent kids to find out that they're homosexual when their whole environment implies that being gay is the most undesirable, stupid and lame thing you can think of.

The use of one singular word to occasionally refer to something as undesirable as "gay" is not equal to a homosexual-hating community of children. There are many factors that go into the discomfort modern society tends to show in overt homosexuality among growing children, but I'd personally say the use of "faggot" and "gay" are probably not very high up there these days.

[Lord Raven]

I'll still believe the offense they take to be a waste on their part, though.

Going to expound on this; changing words does not change attitudes. Eliminating the use of certain words is generally kind of pointless when people are still going to resent you for your sexual orientation.

I'm still not mean enough to go up to a gay guy and say "you're a faggot" (though i am likely to say "that's so gay" or "no homo" because i cannot fathom why that is anywhere near a slur) unless I know that particular gay guy is comfortable with it (and I've met quite a few). But attempts to remove a word are misguided and ultimately won't do enough to change attitudes towards the subject.

[Zanarkin]

People say "no homo" because they don't want people to think they are gay. People don't want them to think they are gay because being gay is viewed so negatively by a lot of people. Thus, people say "no homo" because they don't want people to think less of them for being gay.

Yes, not everyone who says "no homo" feels that being gay is a bad thing, but that doesn't change what most people mean when they say it.

how can you say you love a person (a friend in this case in the platonic case) and then have to say no homo, because you don't trust in that person enough to understand what you mean without making it weird? Its like telling your father you love him and then saying no homo. As if you know, your dad was going to take it literally and think his son wanted to fuck him (Sure the argument can be brought up that there are some fucked up people that would like that but for the most part the majority don't so don't start nitpicking). Same could be said for son-mother, daughter-father/mother, and sibling's relationships.

I find it silly to be talking to someone and have some stranger come out of nowhere and be offended by what i said even though they took it completely out of context.

Edited October 5, 2012 by SlayerX

[Anouleth]

Thing is that when people say "no homo", they're being facetious or ironic something like 100% of the time. As if they're lampshading the absurdity inherent in a phrase which purports to retroactively redact any homoerotic implications in the statement, but really just highlights and encourages such interpretations and reinforces their validity by expressing that they are apparent to the originator. In fact, I usually hear it being said immediately after the most outrageously gay shit ever, to take for example "I sure would like to fuck Robert Downey Jr., no homo." And I don't feel that there's any homophobic implication in making such a joke. If it had a previous, homophobic meaning, it's long been buried under layers and layers of meta and irony.