[From hack to indie] Path of the Midnight Sun

[Naughx]

This hack looks really interesting, I usually don't play games hacks (except translations) but I could probably make an exception with this one.

[Siuloir]

I think what people are trying to say to you, AK (in a big picture sense) is to make sure you balance ambition and expectation with realistic goals. You can essentially extend any project forever, but the longer time drives on, the greater the chances that your motivation fades, player interest dries up, and so on and so forth.

[steroidz]

THis hack looks awesome, can't wait for the patch!

[Alfred Kamon]

I think what people are trying to say to you, AK (in a big picture sense) is to make sure you balance ambition and expectation with realistic goals. You can essentially extend any project forever, but the longer time drives on, the greater the chances that your motivation fades, player interest dries up, and so on and so forth.

Yes, that's true.

I thank you all for your support, and I appreciate your concern.

It's always good that people remind me that because I tend to fly too high with my ideas sometime, haha~

And even if I'm quite attached to some concepts, time is an important factor that should always be taken into account. I'll try to bring you this hack soon to not disappoint the people who believed in this project so far, while trying to realize my little dreams in the meantime. Will this be hard? Sure, but I believe it's not impossible, and I'll try my best to realize it.

This hack looks really interesting, I usually don't play games hacks (except translations) but I could probably make an exception with this one.

Thank you. =) I appreciate it.

THis hack looks awesome, can't wait for the patch!

I will make sure you won't wait too long, then~ Thanks for the compliments.

I'd like to hear what you guys think of Trainees, anyway.

What Yeti brought up is really interesting, after all.

Did you like the fact that they started off as weaker units that could become really strong with some effort?

Do you think this whole idea was executed poorly in FE8? (after all, it was really hard to train them in regular chapters...)

What about their ending stats? Were they too high? Were they ok, considering all the factors?

Edited February 27, 2014 by Alfred Kamon

[Agro]

I'd like to hear what you guys think of Trainees, anyway.

What Yeti brought up is really interesting, after all.

Did you like the fact that they started off as weaker units that could become really strong with some effort?

Do you think this whole idea was executed poorly in FE8? (after all, it was really hard to train them in regular chapters...)

What about their ending stats? Were they too high? Were they ok, considering all the factors?

I actually really liked the trainees. The whole point of them is to be difficult to train--if they're easy to train, they're not really "trainees", after all. It's like people who want an Est that's easy to train. It kind of defeats the purpose if they can be used with little to no effort. Having weak characters that become strong is one of the many joys of FE for, I would wager, a vast majority of FE players. Exceptions include, of course, those who enjoy LTC runs/some form of efficiency runs. Their ending stats are fine, IMO. Though their averages are pretty poor, they have more "wiggle room" in terms of whether or not they become outstanding units--and, quite often, they do.

At any rate, I enjoy the use of trainees, but they could indeed be done a bit better in that maybe one could have them join a bit earlier or create more circumstances where using them is favourable.

[Brendor]

Trainees are great, but in FE8, aside from ross, I thought they joined pretty late (about chapter 9 and 12 iirc) at which point you're already promoting people. It almost forces people to either use the valni tower or arena abuse to get them to a base class. So yeah what Agro said, have them join a tad earlier when they can be in the fray. Maybe add some additional promotion branches to sweeten the pot? I remember the super trainees later can change into 3 potential classes instead of the usual 2 so maybe tap into that somehow and give the trainees a broader scope of classes.

[Flaming Kirlia]

I like them, both Ross and Ewan have access to rare classes, Ross is the only potencial pirate and Ewan can be your first dark magic user, and Amelia has access to a Halberdier type class, and Ewan has access to an Archsage type class, wich is cool, I think giving trainees a vast class choice, and some rare classes would give them more value

[Book of Ereshkigal]

I'm a sucker for Trainees and Ests, I favor the FE8 trainees particularly because of class variety. (and the novelty Super trainees lol)

[Tamanoir]

Trainees are great, but in FE8, aside from ross, I thought they joined pretty late (about chapter 9 and 12 iirc) at which point you're already promoting people. It almost forces people to either use the valni tower or arena abuse to get them to a base class. So yeah what Agro said, have them join a tad earlier when they can be in the fray. Maybe add some additional promotion branches to sweeten the pot? I remember the super trainees later can change into 3 potential classes instead of the usual 2 so maybe tap into that somehow and give the trainees a broader scope of classes.

Ross come early enough. Ewan can be Arena Abused at least in its starting chapter in Ephraim mode, and is the best Est character in a FE game (not sure about FE9/10 here..), just above Nino. (Mage, access to every Magics and best Druid.)

The part about Valni is pretty positive for me. They took advantage of a unique feature of the game and used it to exploit other interresting ideas.

I like them, both Ross and Ewan have access to rare classes, Ross is the only potencial pirate and Ewan can be your first dark magic user, and Amelia has access to a Halberdier type class, and Ewan has access to an Archsage type class, wich is cool, I think giving trainees a vast class choice, and some rare classes would give them more value

I kinda agree with this post too.

No, I think he was just suggesting some ways to make t0s more usable since FE8 didn't make a good job at that.

Thanks for your constant support, it's really precious teddie~

The name is actually based on Shy Tenda...

I do prefer that you take this project too seriously, than not enough and I'm convinced it'll be good;

Waiting will just makes me appreciate it more... (Though there is also the risk of hype backlash...)

[The Iron Rose]

Mind you though the 'super trainee' classes were all strictly inferior to their other promotion options.

[Tamanoir]

Mind you though the 'super trainee' classes were all strictly inferior to their other promotion options.

Without a doubt for Ross, debatabmle for Amelia, because it at least added added something interresting at least (Lance - Locked Swordmaster Type), and I would say wrong for Ewan, because the access to every magic is pretty cool.

And in the Japanese version, they looks all pretty great.

[The Iron Rose]

Without a doubt for Ross, debatabmle for Amelia, because it at least added added something interresting at least (Lance - Locked Swordmaster Type), and I would say wrong for Ewan, because the access to every magic is pretty cool.

And in the Japanese version, they looks all pretty great.

wrt Ewan dark magic is the shittiest of the three types and the caps are slightly worse. And heck, even if you do want dark magic there's always the control-enemy glitch.

Amelia's was at least interesting though, to be sure.

What was different in the japanese version?

[X-Naut]

wrt Ewan dark magic is the shittiest of the three types and the caps are slightly worse. And heck, even if you do want dark magic there's always the control-enemy glitch.

Amelia's was at least interesting though, to be sure.

What was different in the japanese version?

Actually, Ewan's Pupil caps are the best because of 27 Speed. (though that's only relevant in a maxed-stat LA)

And the Japanese Super Trainees' caps are insane. Ross has the offenses of a Warrior and the defenses of a General, Ewan is the same but with his defense stats flipped, and Amelia's caps are all 27 minimum.

[Book of Ereshkigal]

Yeah, so sad the localization nerfed the super trainees ;_;

[Klokinator]

Sailor Scout is best class.

[Tamanoir]

wrt Ewan dark magic is the shittiest of the three types and the caps are slightly worse. And heck, even if you do want dark magic there's always the control-enemy glitch.

Amelia's was at least interesting though, to be sure.

What was different in the japanese version?

Here are the diferences.

Amelia and Ewan were also slightly better, while Ross was ever so slightly worse.

Sailor Scout is best class.

Indeed it is.

Edited February 28, 2014 by shytende

[eCut]

Get back on topic.

[eclipse]

Hmmm. . .as long as I don't have to take out TOO much of my time to get my trainees up to something decent, I don't mind. Otherwise, I'm probably not going to pay attention to that unit, as I've got other things to do. As for a better payoff due to their weaker start - eh, I don't have strong feelings either way. I don't want to be forced to train a trainee just to beat the game, though.

[steroidz]

I don't particularly have an opinion on the trainees either way. One thing I would recommend is having a shaman/dark magic user available fairly early. In all the GBA games they come underlevelled and it's a pain getting them up to par. And they're probably my favorite class too :)

[Alfred Kamon]

I actually really liked the trainees. The whole point of them is to be difficult to train--if they're easy to train, they're not really "trainees", after all. It's like people who want an Est that's easy to train. It kind of defeats the purpose if they can be used with little to no effort. Having weak characters that become strong is one of the many joys of FE for, I would wager, a vast majority of FE players. Exceptions include, of course, those who enjoy LTC runs/some form of efficiency runs. Their ending stats are fine, IMO. Though their averages are pretty poor, they have more "wiggle room" in terms of whether or not they become outstanding units--and, quite often, they do.

At any rate, I enjoy the use of trainees, but they could indeed be done a bit better in that maybe one could have them join a bit earlier or create more circumstances where using them is favourable.

I totally agree with every single bit of this wise post.

It really touches some important points that I defend as well, like the fact that trainees should be hard to train and should be quite unique; it's the main reason why I'm a bit reluctant towards Yeti's ideas on the matter from last page, despite I consider them understandable and well thought.

The main point is that it's quite difficult to create some good gameplay that revolves around our concept of "trainee/Est character", and I humbly admit that as of now two out of three of my trainees might have a lot of difficulties getting on par with others. I'll have to polish things some more before the release.

Trainees are great, but in FE8, aside from ross, I thought they joined pretty late (about chapter 9 and 12 iirc) at which point you're already promoting people. It almost forces people to either use the valni tower or arena abuse to get them to a base class. So yeah what Agro said, have them join a tad earlier when they can be in the fray.

Maybe add some additional promotion branches to sweeten the pot? I remember the super trainees later can change into 3 potential classes instead of the usual 2 so maybe tap into that somehow and give the trainees a broader scope of classes.

First part: Yeah, that's it. And they do join pretty early. =)

"Ewan" autojoins at lv.1 in chapter 2, "Ross" can be recruited in ch.4 and joins at lv.6 in chapter 6, and "Amelia" will be recruitable at lv.7 in ch.6.

Second part:

I'm pretty sure that there are some weird conditions for trainees to have 3 promotion choices (clear Ephraim + Eirika routes first) and I'm not exactly sure how to allow that from your first run...

I like them, both Ross and Ewan have access to rare classes, Ross is the only potencial pirate and Ewan can be your first dark magic user, and Amelia has access to a Halberdier type class, and Ewan has access to an Archsage type class, wich is cool, I think giving trainees a vast class choice, and some rare classes would give them more value

Yes, the plan is to make them as unique as possible, to reward the effort invested in training them.

Hmmm. . .as long as I don't have to take out TOO much of my time to get my trainees up to something decent, I don't mind. Otherwise, I'm probably not going to pay attention to that unit, as I've got other things to do. As for a better payoff due to their weaker start - eh, I don't have strong feelings either way. I don't want to be forced to train a trainee just to beat the game, though.

Some mixed feelings here, which make this post particularly precious.

Especially the bolded part, and don't worry, you won't have to do that.

I don't particularly have an opinion on the trainees either way. One thing I would recommend is having a shaman/dark magic user available fairly early. In all the GBA games they come underlevelled and it's a pain getting them up to par. And they're probably my favorite class too :)

Buh, Faratrass, the main Lord, uses dark magic. :3

She is the first unit you get. Can that be considered "fairly early"? Eheh

I'm a sucker for Trainees and Ests, I favor the FE8 trainees particularly because of class variety. (and the novelty Super trainees lol)

Super Trainees... right.

I was wondering if people liked super trainees or not, because they were relatively inferior to other promotion options (at least in the western games) and their animations just didn't fit their tier2 classes

At last, I think the best for trainees would be to give them their unique class (super trainees) making them, uh, more 'unique' than how FE8 did, and maybe some other class that is quite uncommon or unused at all by other characters.

[steroidz]

YES THANK YOU! sorry i haven't had the chance to look through the whole topic, so I'm a bit unfamiliar with all the units you've made so far. Awesome to hear though.

[Klokinator]

Amelia has +15 crit, only lance unit with that feature.

Ross can be gotten early, you make hima pirate anyway if you're smart. Super journeyman = inferior zerker.

Ewan gets three magic types, very unique class. Were in not for the Dark Magic glitch, this would be the only class that had access to light/dark/anima at the same time. Currently though, he's an inferior sage. Giving him crit+15 would be neat.

just my thoughts

[Agro]

The main problem IMO with the super trainees is caps and con, both of which can be easily rectified.

[Flaming Kirlia]

Maybe give "Ross" another skill, in FE8 there are a couple skills, you can make mutiple combinations and make some classes more interesting

[Brendor]

Skills unfortunately are very tricky to assign to classes as the game implements the skills in such a way that the classes are in a range, so skills can't be assigned to individual classes unless you put them in that range so it goes like "classes between XX and YY have this skill" not the much easier "x, a, q & w have the skill";