Opinion on Crossbows

[bottlegnomes]

Yes. They made using units with high crit rates to weaken enemies to help train other characters actually reliable, instead of having them critblick an enemy when you least want it leaving the weak unit SOL.

[cyron]

when i mentioned the idea of 2-4 and 3-7 range bows i included that they would to an extent be limited by terrain, still not sure how, and also what if accuracy decreased with range

[Anouleth]

@Ano, any particular reason why? 3 range doesn't seem like it'd be enough to make keeping squishies alive overly difficult.

Memories of Micaiah being killed by longbowmen, I suppose? And, I guess, just generally being conservative on what would be a large buff to bows, which I don't believe are so awful that they all need to receive a range buff.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Anouleth

[Jotari]

I think bows and archers are good the way they are now too. The only thing they particularly need is a good counter attack which is why I think crossbows could have great potential.

[Original Alear]

I'd rather an archer be a decent attacker at 2 range, that can take a hit, but you don't particularly want to take a hit, for the most part. I think my main interest would be in a FE with a fairly typical earlygame environment (whatever that means), early joining archers be some of your harder hitting units, and not just be doing chip damage.

Or, for an early joining archer to typically be mounted, possibly with a canto advantage over sword/axe/lance units. Maybe even foot archers could be given an after-attack canto effect. Or armors could be given this. Just throwing out some ideas I haven't seen yet. The idea would be to give mobility after attacking more to lower move than higher move units, even if it makes no sense from the mounted perspective. W/e, I suppose - likely wouldn't work in practice with what we usually have.

So, why are you complaining that this unique and varied weapon isn't good enough? Doesn't the strength of my theoretical crossbow depend entirely on variables such as what stats the crossbow has, the relative strength of enemies, the relative strength of allies, the level design, the availability of money and vendors that sell crossbows, the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, the price of tea in China, and whether Mia's hair is blue or purple? And as such, it's fruitless to speculate whether certain ideas would be overpowered or underpowered? Like I pointed out, the "concept" of magic attacks is overpowered. In practice, magic is actually underpowered.

This shit will not slip by unnoticed. That's not a variable, that's a constant. Mia's hair is indigo.

Those are games I haven't played. Also, I could argue that bronze weapons were balanced, but did they really add anything to the game?

I can't really think of someone besides Sothe, and the characters who started with em, that made much use of bronze weapons for me. As far as crossbows go, they were largely available enough without shopping that I didn't have to shop for 'em, and I thought that the ones I got were pretty handy.

I also thought bronze weapons were a perfectly decent fallback, cheaper than iron, that someone might use at a couple points if they spent poorly, etc, and just wanted to give "a unit" "a weapon" after reselling stuff. Dunno if anyone here would need to make use of something like that. I have seen some fe newbies posting from time to time after really screwing themselves into a bad position, I figure tools like that might be helpful. Admittedly it's probably just 1-200g difference from iron for a few more, much weaker uses, etc, but eh.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Mouse

[Renall]

I'd rather an archer be a decent attacker at 2 range, that can take a hit, but you don't particularly want to take a hit, for the most part.

Problem is, then they're pretty much mages who can't counter at 1 range. And they're hitting DEF, which is almost universally the higher of the two defenses. Better stats for early-joining archers and/or access to a mount with remove is all great stuff, but I still have a problem with it in the sense that it doesn't feel like a particularly meaningful niche.

There are many ways to flesh that niche out. Crossbows could be one of those, or not. Hell, the biggest effect Crossbow access really had in RD wasn't buffing Archers, it was nerfing Warriors, who otherwise tend to do pretty obscene damage with their high STR and bow access. Giving Archers a monopoly on the really good bows and then making bows extremely desirable can "fix" them without really even altering the class.

[Snowy_One]

Dumb question but... if bows aren't so awful, then why is it that few mono-bow users get good tierings post FE7 and bows seem to get trained the least out of all the weapon types?

[bottlegnomes]

Well, most of those bow users would suck even with other weapons. IIRC, Innes, Louise, and FE10 Shinon are all ranked fairly decently. That's 3 out of 10, which actually isn't too bad. I don't feel like actually looking into it, but I have a feeling most other mono weapon classes wouldn't have a much better distribution.

@Ano, fair point, though one situation where an incredibly frail unit gets killed by a relatively strong enemy doesn't seem like enough to write the idea off completely.

[Snowy_One]

I actually say that's a plus as it's showing how good the weapon idea can be, especially for tactics. Just because current game strategies need to change to fit the notion of 2-3 range bows and 1-2 range crossbows doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Imagine if Tales stuck with 2-D fighting or Mario never went 3-D after all.

[Anouleth]

I actually say that's a plus as it's showing how good the weapon idea can be, especially for tactics. Just because current game strategies need to change to fit the notion of 2-3 range bows and 1-2 range crossbows doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Imagine if Tales stuck with 2-D fighting or Mario never went 3-D after all.

Mario would arguably be better if it never went 3D. It's no accident that NSMB Wii outsold Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 put together.

So, sometimes change is good. Sometimes it's unnecessary.

[bottlegnomes]

But there's only one way to find out.

[Lord Raven]

Don't say that! It's a lot of nostalgia in older gamers, for instance, that clouds judgment and prevents people from caring about 3D super mario brothers. My sisters are among many people that SAW Mario in 3D without playing it and said "f that"

Tales technically still does 2D fighting. When you free run you can't attack much, and when you exit the free run you're still on the same line as an opponent.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Lord Raven

[Shadow Mir]

Don't say that! It's a lot of nostalgia in older gamers, for instance, that clouds judgment and prevents people from caring about 3D super mario brothers. My sisters are among many people that SAW Mario in 3D without playing it and said "f that"

Which is why I am unfettered by nostalgia.

Now back to the topic, I'm personally unconvinced that bows would really need a range buff to be considered viable.

Tales technically still does 2D fighting. When you free run you can't attack much, and when you exit the free run you're still on the same line as an opponent.

On that note, isn't Vesperia the only game where you could attack while free running?

Edited January 12, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Rehab]

I was going to say something about how Mario Sunshine is my favorite Mario game so there, but the I remembered I never finished the game because I suck and the lava boat section totally destructed me for years straight, so maybe I'm not one to talk.

On the topic, yeah, while some of the ideas you guys've come up with sound really intriguing, I think it'd be nice, before we really start pushing for any of this stuff to be put in an actual fe game, to see at least one more in the series where there's at least one unquestionably good unit, statistically speaking, that uses only bows. Before going overboard unknowingly, etc.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Rehab

[Anouleth]

On the topic, yeah, while some of the ideas you guys've come up with sound really intriguing, I think it'd be nice, before we really start pushing for any of this stuff to be put in an actual fe game, to see at least one more in the series where there's at least one unquestionably good unit, statistically speaking, that uses only bows. Before going overboard unknowingly, etc.

"Pushing"? Let's not pretend we have some influence over IntSys' decisions.

[Snowy_One]

Tales technically still does 2D fighting. When you free run you can't attack much, and when you exit the free run you're still on the same line as an opponent.

Go and play Phantasima or Legendia. The series has progressed a LOT since it's old 2-D roots.

Mario would arguably be better if it never went 3D. It's no accident that NSMB Wii outsold Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 put together.

So, sometimes change is good. Sometimes it's unnecessary.

We'd also almost certainly be missing out on things like Mario Party, Mario Kart, and pretty much every Mario game between now and NSMB and potentially Brawl as well. Nintendo might not even be around anymore as their flagship series remained relatively stagnant instead of progressing. There will always be a place for 2-D classics and the past, but to think you are limited by them and the risk of expanding outwards into new things is too great is to kill your series.

"Pushing"? Let's not pretend we have some influence over IntSys' decisions.

Actually, we do. We have the power of consumer and the power of feedback. It's probably too late for FE13, but there is nothing stopping us from sending letters and e-mail to IS explaining our feelings and ideas. It would be stupid of them to totally ignore us and, so long as we follow the DBAD rules when writing our letters, we have a decent chance of being listened to.

[Anouleth]

We'd also almost certainly be missing out on things like Mario Party, Mario Kart, and pretty much every Mario game between now and NSMB and potentially Brawl as well.

What? Mario Kart was a thing before Super Mario 64. And I'm not talking about the spin-off games like Mario Party or Mario Kart, I'm talking about the core series. In fact, I'm not even saying that Mario 64 was a bad game. But it would have been better if it were in 2D rather than 3D.

Nintendo might not even be around anymore as their flagship series remained relatively stagnant instead of progressing.

Yeah, I mean, NSMB Wii only sold over 20 million fucking copies, and triggered stores running out of the Wii because customers were so eager to finally get another 2D Mario after over a decade of nothing. Who wants that? Far more important to impress video game reviewers and people on internet message boards. Money and fame? Who wants that, huh?

There will always be a place for 2-D classics and the past, but to think you are limited by them and the risk of expanding outwards into new things is too great is to kill your series.

Except that NSMB Wii did change things by making the game multiplayer.

Actually, we do. We have the power of consumer and the power of feedback. It's probably too late for FE13, but there is nothing stopping us from sending letters and e-mail to IS explaining our feelings and ideas. It would be stupid of them to totally ignore us and, so long as we follow the DBAD rules when writing our letters, we have a decent chance of being listened to.

It would be smart of them to totally ignore us. According to people on this site, FE7 is the greatest Fire Emblem ever created and every other Fire Emblem should be more like it in every possible way.

[Integrity]

It would be smart of them to totally ignore us. According to people on this site, FE7 is the greatest Fire Emblem ever created and every other Fire Emblem should be more like it in every possible way.

I thought that was FE4?

[Anouleth]

I thought that was FE4?

I dunno, I still feel like there's more praise for FE7. Praise for FE4 is justified, anyway, because it actually is great.

[Integrity]

I dunno, I still feel like there's more praise for FE7. Praise for FE4 is justified, anyway, because it actually is great.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[CinderSkye]

Considering the extremely positive effect which Super Mario 64 had on the industry as a whole, there's something to be said for fame and critical acclaim. You can go too far in assigning worth purely on sales; Farmville is one of the most successful games of all time, because it's quite accessible and engrossing and pick-up-and-play, but I'd be surprised if many of us were big fans. There's a place for broad consumer appeal, but there's also a place for critical response.

BTW, I definitely have always seen more praise for FE4 and 5 among diehard FE fans than 7, by a loooooooooong shot. 7's heyday of fame was when its only real US competition was 8 and 9.

Edited January 12, 2013 by CinderSkye

[Rehab]

"Pushing"? Let's not pretend we have some influence over IntSys' decisions.

I mean being overly expectant of <[ I can dream /sniff

[Othin]

Praise for FE4 is justified, anyway, because it actually is great.

You're demonstrating the exact point you're attempting to contest.