FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Samias]

If Nowi is going to be in B-Tier, I can't see Tharja going above her, even with Nostanking. I haven't really ever tried using Tharja, but from my current playthrough, I'm actually curious as to whether she can even get started as fast as Nowi can, and I wouldn't even be able to baby Tharja the same way I could Nowi since Nosferatu only has 20 uses available for 2 1/2 chapters, not to mention it's more expensive than a Dragon Stone when accounting for weapon use in the long run anyway.

Even without Nosferatu, Tharja is the second best mage after Avatar, and tomes are a good thing to have in the armor heavy Valm arc. Her magic, speed, def, and res growths are all great. And on top of Nosferatu, she has Ruin for insane crit, or Waste for braves available before any other unit. Or you could go dark knight for movement, but personally I think sorcerer is a much more versatile class and she doesn't need anything else if you wanted to break the game over your knee. There is no way Tharja should be under Miriel, at least, because even Miriel eating a seal to become a dark mage just doesn't perform quite the same.

And with Donnel I stress babying for 10 levels out of shit uselessness doubled by almost everything with no offense, the most awful defense and not even 1-2 range to start is significantly worse than babying any other unit in the game. Yes he is a god once he reclasses and if we use him he eats the first second seal asap, but he can't do jack shit on his own and everyone else in the game can do better than that.

[Inui]

Even without Nosferatu, Tharja is the second best mage after Avatar, and tomes are a good thing to have in the armor heavy Valm arc. Her magic, speed, def, and res growths are all great. And on top of Nosferatu, she has Ruin for insane crit, or Waste for braves available before any other unit. Or you could go dark knight for movement, but personally I think sorcerer is a much more versatile class and she doesn't need anything else if you wanted to break the game over your knee. There is no way Tharja should be under Miriel, at least, because even Miriel eating a seal to become a dark mage just doesn't perform quite the same.

I can't agree more. I think Tharja is a solid top 5, in fact.

And with Donnel I stress babying for 10 levels out of shit uselessness doubled by almost everything with no offense, the most awful defense and not even 1-2 range to start is significantly worse than babying any other unit in the game. Yes he is a god once he reclasses and if we use him he eats the first second seal asap, but he can't do jack shit on his own and everyone else in the game can do better than that.

It's not hard. What you get out of it is better than...every other unit. Possibly even better than the Avatar thanks to Aptitude, Sol, and Armsthrift making Donnel crazy broken. His period of suck is a bad period of suck, but his period of pwnage is far longer and makes it well worth it, especially considering it is actually very easy to sneak him a few kills thanks to pairing up.

[Lord Raven]

Nah. Ricken is solidly the worst unit. Look at his class spread and growths. Nothing can salvage him.

He's an okay chip as a mage, surely better than Virion

Donnel in "Hard" Mode turns into Jesus Christ after becoming a Mercenary, which is NOT hard at all to get him to in such an easy mode. He's certainly astronomically better than Panne once he reclasses to Mercenary, and then has infinite Armsthrift and Sol eventually, which makes him cruuuuush her in durability and cost effectiveness. If everyone thinks Panne has exclusive rights to a Second Seal, I'd say Donnel has even more of a right considering he turns out substantially better than her after being given one.

A simple pair up lets him get to level 10 and then reclass fairly easily. Someone like Frederick will give him huge Str which means his attacks can do damage. If unit X can get the kill that Donnel can get with lance poke, give it to Donnel. Killing a thief in his joining chapter nets him 90 EXP. I found him astonishingly easy to raise in "Hard" Mode. In Lunatic it's a bit tough, but it's not hard in Lunatic because pair up exists and you can poke things like thieves and archers. It's reasonable for him to be a Mercenary by the time you're in Tharja's joining chapter or something, and he can just stay behind and solo all of those garbage reinforcement Wyvern Riders with his lol Bronze Sword surprisingly easily. Suddenly, he's your best unit because his stats are ridiculous and his weapons have nearly infinite uses and will eventually literally have infinite users. INFINITE USES OF GOD TIER WEAPONS AND SOL. And Donnel can have this for a long time. How the hell does Panne, who can die in one hit, compete with the invincibility of Heroes and Sorcerers and Heroes having INFINITE USES OF WEAPONS?

Umm... No? Donnel's still pretty difficult to raise even when paired up lol In his join chapter, pair Frederick or anyone else up with him and he still gets ORKO'd (2HKO'd at his very very best). I'm not sure if we're playing the same game here, plus there's a bunch of axe users that further hamper his ability to grow as a villager to the point where he's invincible. The effort required to raise him already puts him pretty low especially since he's not anywhere near as easy to use as other units + he is nowhere near invincible (the exact opposite) when he starts out + stays with generally bad stats for a while + you don't get anything out of him that you don't get out of other units.

Heroes don't have infinite uses of weapons until someone hits like 40-45 Luck, which Donnel won't for a while unless you put a lot of effort into him (which doesn't seem to be worth it because once again he's redundant with others)

Since when is raising units with good 2 range attacks difficult? I don't understand this. I thought dondon said everyone got better at the games, not worse. Tharja and Henry don't take counters when they join and pair up exists to get around any stat flaws they might have. Raise 'em up a bit, and then you have invincible units. You can't purchase Nosferatu for a few chapters but you already have stuff like Elfire and Elthunder to get easy kills with them since they do huge damage and have skills to increase their hit chances. Tharja even doubles kinda easily right away. There are still more than 10 chapters and a whole lot of Paralogues after Henry joins. I'd say having invincible god tanks is well worth some babying. I mean, if Panne is entitled to a Second Seal above all other units and has exclusive rights to it and some babying, then why don't units like Donnel, Tharja, and Henry have such rights when they end up better after being given similar treatment? Panne will NEVER boast invincibility because you're all making her a FLIER. Forged Silver Bows, forged Rexcalibur, etc. all become commonplace later on and can kill her in one hit. Meanwhile, Tharja and Henry can't die. Neither can Donnel cuz lol Sol with infinite use X god tier weapon.

Nobody with access to the Sorcerer class can be bad.

You don't? Try this: you do 2-range from player phase only, but chapters tend to end in 4-5 turns on average in a "brisk pace" sort of run. Tharja takes a couple levels and still has Skill issues (Luck issues I don't mind as much, Dodge is easy to get) because she has low base skill and luck. Units that would make a good pair up bitch for her are too good to stay her pair up bitch because many units match Tharja's offense at base. Tharja's defense growth has been measured (using I think close to 100 levels, leading to 30% growth with a 5% standard deviation) much lower than what it says on the site, too, so she takes a while to get going with Nosferatu because her hitrates are unreliable, her defense isn't really that high that you can really do it consistently. Add to this is that Henry's largely redundant by his join chapter, he takes a while before his speed is up to form, and once again units that you want to make their Pair Up bitch are way too good to remain a pair up bitch. Besides, purchasable Nosferatu or not, it does you no favors when you can't double and kill consistently with Nosferatu. 9 Base Speed with dark tomes and solid defense is good enough for C tier. Tharja's solid enough for B tier because she has her own fair share of problems starting out that don't get hammered out for a couple of chapters.

You keep harping on hard mode and saying "LOL ITS TOO EASY" but you keep encouraging babying units that become invincible... even though supposedly hard mode is so easy anyway so why go through the effort of using Donnel and Tharja and Henry when you already have units that shit up the game so fast that those particular units are redundant anyway? These units are a hindrance starting out and are largely redundant in the long term. That's why they are relegated to their own tiers. I wouldn't keep throwing the condescending "hard mode is NOT HARD" card around if you want to keep arguing the way you are.

And let's add to the fact that you suggested pairing Frederick up with Donnel. Such a fucking retarded point, because you said Frederick is the reason the first 10 chapters are so easy. Pick a side, man.

[Khan of Blades]

I can't agree more. I think Tharja is a solid top 5, in fact.

That's a lie and you know it. You can't seriously tell me that someone the likes of Tharja is in the group comprised of Avatar, Panne, Fred and Chrom.

It's not hard. What you get out of it is better than...every other unit. Possibly even better than the Avatar thanks to Aptitude, Sol, and Armsthrift making Donnel crazy broken. His period of suck is a bad period of suck, but his period of pwnage is far longer and makes it well worth it, especially considering it is actually very easy to sneak him a few kills thanks to pairing up.

That's not an argument; that's an explanation of what an Est type character is.

Est type character's aren't generally favoured, or used, or considered, in a 'brisk' moving game.

[Inui]

He's an okay chip as a mage, surely better than Virion

Virion can one-shot fliers. Ricken can't do anything.

Virion is cool. Not sure why he's so low.

Umm... No? Donnel's still pretty difficult to raise even when paired up lol In his join chapter, pair Frederick or anyone else up with him and he still gets ORKO'd (2HKO'd at his very very best). I'm not sure if we're playing the same game here, plus there's a bunch of axe users that further hamper his ability to grow as a villager to the point where he's invincible. The effort required to raise him already puts him pretty low especially since he's not anywhere near as easy to use as other units + he is nowhere near invincible (the exact opposite) when he starts out + stays with generally bad stats for a while + you don't get anything out of him that you don't get out of other units.

Nah, get good at the game. Don't know what else to say. Fred or whoever he's with moves him to X unit, he pokes X unit for a kill, and gets huge EXP. You have a team around him that kill other stuff or whatever. Not sure why everyone here is so bad at Fire Emblem when dondon claimed everyone got better. Did you know that you can click on enemy units and see their attack ranges? Even better, a single button shows all dangerous spots on the whole map! Whoa!

What you get out of Donnel is far more than other units wtf lol... I'm way too lazy to go crunch numbers and copy paste them, but you should understand what Aptitude does for him. Will Panne ever have Sol? No. Will she ever have Armsthrift? Nah. Will Panne ever have invincibility after investment? Nope, especially if you're insisting she's a Wyvern, which this game slaughters. Tiny maps compared to GBA times when fliers had utility, not much terrain, huge amounts of bows and wind magic. Get out.

Heroes don't have infinite uses of weapons until someone hits like 40-45 Luck, which Donnel won't for a while unless you put a lot of effort into him (which doesn't seem to be worth it because once again he's redundant with others)

Donnel's Luck growth is 100%.

Not sure how Donnel having nearly double anyone else's stats makes him "redundant."

You don't? Try this: you do 2-range from player phase only, but chapters tend to end in 4-5 turns on average in a "brisk pace" sort of run. Tharja takes a couple levels and still has Skill issues (Luck issues I don't mind as much, Dodge is easy to get) because she has low base skill and luck. Units that would make a good pair up bitch for her are too good to stay her pair up bitch because many units match Tharja's offense at base. Tharja's defense growth has been measured (using I think close to 100 levels, leading to 30% growth with a 5% standard deviation) much lower than what it says on the site, too, so she takes a while to get going with Nosferatu because her hitrates are unreliable, her defense isn't really that high that you can really do it consistently. Add to this is that Henry's largely redundant by his join chapter, he takes a while before his speed is up to form, and once again units that you want to make their Pair Up bitch are way too good to remain a pair up bitch. Besides, purchasable Nosferatu or not, it does you no favors when you can't double and kill consistently with Nosferatu. 9 Base Speed with dark tomes and solid defense is good enough for C tier. Tharja's solid enough for B tier because she has her own fair share of problems starting out that don't get hammered out for a couple of chapters.

Are you removing her skills? Try not doing that next time. They give her a lot more Hit and some nice Crit boosts. Same with Henry.

Did you know that if you level them up, in later chapters that are bigger and harder, you can just equip Nosferatu on them, move them forward, end your turn, and then hit start, and repeat this for the rest of the game? This is why I deleted my hard mode file out boredom and went to Lunatic. Panne can't break the game like this no matter how much you invest in her because she doesn't have access to the classes or skills required to break the game. You must have access to either Hero or Sorcerer to wtfpwn the game like that. It's so easy to break, but Panne can't break it.

You keep harping on hard mode and saying "LOL ITS TOO EASY" but you keep encouraging babying units that become invincible... even though supposedly hard mode is so easy anyway so why go through the effort of using Donnel and Tharja and Henry when you already have units that shit up the game so fast that those particular units are redundant anyway? These units are a hindrance starting out and are largely redundant in the long term. That's why they are relegated to their own tiers. I wouldn't keep throwing the condescending "hard mode is NOT HARD" card around if you want to keep arguing the way you are.

Nah. Break the shitty game. That's what I'm arguing here. OH NO, I MUST TAKE 3 OR 4 CHAPTERS OR SLIGHT EFFORT IN ORDER TO REDUCE THE GAME TO 3 TURNS PER CHAPTER WITH MY UNITS THAT CAN'T DIE! Pretty sure that's worth it. The easiness of the game makes my argument BETTER because units like Donnel, Henry, and Tharja literally break it, something Panne can't ever do.

And let's add to the fact that you suggested pairing Frederick up with Donnel. Such a fucking retarded point, because you said Frederick is the reason the first 10 chapters are so easy. Pick a side, man.

Not sure what you're getting at here. You can switch between Fred and Donnel at any time to conveniently pick off kills with Donnel when it's a good idea to do so.

That's a lie and you know it. You can't seriously tell me that someone the likes of Tharja is in the group comprised of Avatar, Panne, Fred and Chrom.

Nah, she's better than Panne. Panne can't break the game. Those other guys and Tharja do.

That's not an argument; that's an explanation of what an Est type character is.

Est type character's aren't generally favoured, or used, or considered, in a 'brisk' moving game.

Est joins late. Donnel joins super early. Before Panne, actually. So, you have no idea what you're talking about LOL.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Inui

[Lord Raven]

Virion can one-shot fliers. Ricken can't do anything.

Virion is cool. Not sure why he's so low.

Both require work and Ricken gives better chip

Nah, get good at the game. Don't know what else to say. Fred or whoever he's with moves him to X unit, he pokes X unit for a kill, and gets huge EXP. You have a team around him that kill other stuff or whatever. Not sure why everyone here is so bad at Fire Emblem when dondon claimed everyone got better. Did you know that you can click on enemy units and see their attack ranges? Even better, a single button shows all dangerous spots on the whole map! Whoa!

Don't be condescending, this is not a point at all. I've rarely been in a situation where it's been convenient to get Donnel a kill, either because my units one round the dudes with their weakest weapon or they do a 2HKO that doesn't allow Donnel to do his 5 damage to get the kill with his Bronze Lance. He has base 9 attack, you know that right? Frederick adds 4 to said Attack stat, so base 13 Attack when... Frederick could Silver Lance anything else and automatically make it easier in the short term.

What you get out of Donnel is far more than other units wtf lol... I'm way too lazy to go crunch numbers and copy paste them, but you should understand what Aptitude does for him. Will Panne ever have Sol? No. Will she ever have Armsthrift? Nah. Will Panne ever have invincibility after investment? Nope, especially if you're insisting she's a Wyvern, which this game slaughters. Tiny maps, not much terrain, huge amounts of bows and wind magic. Get out.

Wyvern gives her huge stat boosts, and her huge stat boosts prevent her from getting slaughtered because she's just that good. I don't agree with her being right below Avatar but, once again, there was extensive discussion about this that you missed that I really don't want to pull up. Simply pulling up Panne in the search bar will get it to you.

And no, what you get out of Donnel is essentially redundant, because your other units have the ability to make this game easy, just like Donnel, but they don't require the investment. Donnel is literally cock for 9 levels and he gets ORKO'd/OHKO'd for at least 9 of those levels. He's hitting 9 speed when he promotes at Level 10 and then probably getting 15 after that. But 9 levels when he gains EXP only slightly faster than every other unit? Takes way too long. It's hardly "slight."

Donnel's Luck growth is 100%.

Not sure how Donnel having nearly double anyone else's stats makes him "redundant."

But he won't have double everyone else's stats, and it takes him 30 levels (at least) to hit 40-50 luck.

Are you removing her skills? Try not doing that next time. They give her a lot more Hit and some nice Crit boosts. Same with Henry.

I'm not, and she's still having rather not-salvageable hit rates. Henry's hit rates are fine, but his problem is that he doesn't have the Speed lol

Every other point Inui has brought up

It's almost like you don't know how to read and you continue to talk! Edited March 24, 2013 by Lord Raven

[Florete]

I know everyone hates training weak units, and for this I do agree Donnel needs to stay in the lower tiers, but everything Inui is saying about Donnel is completely true. He's not tough to raise with Pair Up (shit, people, do you realize Hard mode is not actually hard at all?) and he'll basically become your best unit once re-classed to Mercenary. Before long he'll be saving half his weapon uses and he only continues to save more, so he can basically wreck the last half of the game while costing little to nothing.

If he was a typical Est unit, aka arrives late with shit bases and maybe above-average growths, this argument would not exist. But Donnel comes near the beginning of the game, before your glorious Panne, even.

[Lord Raven]

idk man whenever I've paired Donnel up with Frederick he's always been 2HKO'd at best lol and none of my units ever left enemies in that 6-7 HP range that Donnel needs to get the kill when he's paired up with Frederick

[Khan of Blades]

I know everyone hates training weak units, and for this I do agree Donnel needs to stay in the lower tiers, but everything Inui is saying about Donnel is completely true. He's not tough to raise with Pair Up (shit, people, do you realize Hard mode is not actually hard at all?) and he'll basically become your best unit once re-classed to Mercenary. Before long he'll be saving half his weapon uses and he only continues to save more, so he can basically wreck the last half of the game while costing little to nothing.

If he was a typical Est unit, aka arrives late with shit bases and maybe above-average growths, this argument would not exist. But Donnel comes near the beginning of the game, before your glorious Panne, even.

Not to be 'LTC' guy, but siphoning experience into Donnel, who still requires a full 10 level ups to stand up on his own feet, deprives other units who can clear faster, needs less babying, and would be more useful as a result in the rest of the game. Donnel doesn't even get that much experience per feed.

Wait a minute, so we're both in agreement that Donnel is to stay scrub tier? Then I have no qualms with this.

[Legault!]

Someone please explain to me why Tharja is below Sully / Stahl. They join earlier and have mounted range (less important because lolAwakening), but their offense tapers off pretty substantially later on. Tharja solos the game past Ch.13 and is your out-and-out best non-Avatar mage in a game where mages are amazing.

[Florete]

Wait a minute, so we're both in agreement that Donnel is to stay scrub tier? Then I have no qualms with this.

Yeah, but he should be above Ricken, Flavia, Basilio, and maybe Virion.

I don't agree with Inui's stance on Virion, but for the time being that could mostly be just because I've had very bad luck with him.

[Inui]

I used to hate on Donnel too, then I got good. My argument is that the investment is worth it. You sacrifice a few turns here and there, yeah. Big deal. You might give up 10 turns, or even 20 turns overall, in order to get Donnel to the point of being a Mercenary. However, after he gets rolling, he starts steamrolling enemies.

Mercenary Donnel

HP: 115

Str: 85

Skl: 35

Skl: 85

Spd: 85

Luck: 100

Def: 65

Res: 40

He's not an Est. He joins before Panne, and this game throws stuff at you to level him up. Paralogues, pairing up, FORGING, whatever. It's laughably easy and the heavy penalty he gets in Hard Mode tier lists is unfair considering his ease of use in that mode.

There's nothing redundant at all about Donnel. Whatever investment you put in Donnel early on, be it a few thousand gold and a dozen turns, he pays back ten-fold later on. He will use weapons without costing money. Panne costs money to have her godly offense. Donnel's will, in not much time at all, cost nothing and be better than Panne's because he absolutely crushes her statistically and in terms of skill set. Donnel is your top choice for godly weapons because they will have nearly infinite uses and then literally infinite uses. Armsthrift will be 40% right when he becomes a Mercenary LOL. And it already costs half as much as anyone else as soon as he goes to Mercenary. He makes the best use of Armsthrift in the game.

I was definitely part of #teamhatedonnel when I first started this game, but then I got good at it and just played it and realized it's really easy to raise up Donnel and what you get out of it shits on every other unit in the game. Absurd stats, infinite weapon uses, nearly infinite durability, godlike offense.

Did you know Donnel can solo the final chapter with an infinite use Helswath? Fun stuff. Panne will just die to <insert flying killing unit> in one or two hits.

I'll care about Henry, Tharja, and Virion later. They're all wayyyy too low on this list but I feel like helping my boy Donnel first. COME ON DONNY! GIT 'ER DONE!

Someone please explain to me why Tharja is below Sully / Stahl. They join earlier and have mounted range (less important because lolAwakening), but their offense tapers off pretty substantially later on. Tharja solos the game past Ch.13 and is your out-and-out best non-Avatar mage in a game where mages are amazing.

BUT SHE CAN'T HIT THINGS EVEN THOUGH HER SKILLS GIVE HER +25 HIT!!!

AND ONE-ROUNDING WYVERNS UPON JOINING ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH!!!

Edited March 24, 2013 by Inui

[Legault!]

To be fair Inui, I'm totally on your side in these discussions / flame wars, but there's an apparent contradiction in saying

1. Donnel is easy to train because of lolHard enemies

2. Donnel's investment is worthwhile

If the mode is full of trash enemies, which it is, then Donnel becoming amazing means less when others can perform his role with less babying. I can see him bumping up no higher than Basilio, since Virion is better.

[Lord Raven]

That's the thing though. You lose maybe 20 turns (I'd argue even more because he can only really attack on player phase because he can barely stand on his own two feet) to get... just about the same output (steamrolling enemies) as the minimal investment required in Panne and them. Probably only slightly better in the long haul. If you go way out of your way to get Donnel up to a higher tier early on then it pays off later on, but many other units are easy to use from the get-go and don't tend to ever taper off. Gold is plentiful enough in this game that while Armsthrift is cool, it's not the result of God's grace or anything and it's just not worth having a significantly slower early game to have a slightly faster mid- and endgame.

[Florete]

Someone please explain to me why Tharja is below Sully / Stahl. They join earlier and have mounted range (less important because lolAwakening), but their offense tapers off pretty substantially later on. Tharja solos the game past Ch.13 and is your out-and-out best non-Avatar mage in a game where mages are amazing.

I'm not big on Stahl (though the only Hard run I used him in was my first run in which I barely even knew about Pair Up), but I've never known anything about Sully to "taper off." Female Avatar aside, she's probably the most efficient candidate for Chrom's wife (only Sumia really competes), and the two of them together quickly become an unstoppable wall of death; at least by the time Tharja shows up.

While I will agree that Tharja is underrated and Henry is definitely underrated, I can't see them as high as some of you think they should be. It's true that they have problems before going rape mode, and the units in S and A tiers, barring Frederick for obvious reasons, can quickly become super-powers that basically solo the game just the same anyway. I tried arguing Cherche down before for late join and laughable re-class options, and Miriel and Vaike probably ought to go down as well, so Tharja should at least be at the bottom of A tier, but not sure I can see her any higher. Henry would probably be bottom of B tier.

EDIT: On another note, I also kind of wonder what Sumia is doing up there. Her offense tends to be really borderline and she consistently (for me) still has single digit Def after promotion.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Lord Raven]

Sumia's pretty B tier to me, but I don't want to bring any new points up. I'm honestly waiting on SDS' justifications behind his placements before I argue, because I feel like I'm wasting time and have nothing to base my arguments off of unless I know why they're there.

Stahl's got a strong later-early game and his mid game makes him impenetrable. He gets a little weaker as time goes on due to magic, but he can hit hard and can go Cav -> Great Knight (early and mid game) -> Swordmaster (post-Valm) to become effective. I can see why he's lower than Sully, and he's certainly worthy of being lower A tier/upper B tier.

[Khan of Blades]

To be fair Inui, I'm totally on your side in these discussions / flame wars, but there's an apparent contradiction in saying

1. Donnel is easy to train because of lolHard enemies

2. Donnel's investment is worthwhile

If the mode is full of trash enemies, which it is, then Donnel becoming amazing means less when others can perform his role with less babying. I can see him bumping up no higher than Basilio, since Virion is better.

Huh? Care to explain, I'm just curious why Archest of arch is better than Rally Strength.

[Inui]

To be fair Inui, I'm totally on your side in these discussions / flame wars, but there's an apparent contradiction in saying

1. Donnel is easy to train because of lolHard enemies

2. Donnel's investment is worthwhile

If the mode is full of trash enemies, which it is, then Donnel becoming amazing means less when others can perform his role with less babying. I can see him bumping up no higher than Basilio, since Virion is better.

Nah. Donnel, Henry, Tharja, etc. are WHY the game is easy. Can Panne ever just be sent forward into a lategame map at random, just fully forward into all enemies, end turn, hit start, and survive? No way. She doesn't have the stats, skills, or proper class acess for it. It's units like Donnel and Tharja that break the game, not Panne. Raising up Donnel/etc. is what makes the game free as fuck. You're not going to see the rest of the cast solo maps.

That's the thing though. You lose maybe 20 turns (I'd argue even more because he can only really attack on player phase because he can barely stand on his own two feet) to get... just about the same output (steamrolling enemies) as the minimal investment required in Panne and them. Probably only slightly better in the long haul. If you go way out of your way to get Donnel up to a higher tier early on then it pays off later on, but many other units are easy to use from the get-go and don't tend to ever taper off. Gold is plentiful enough in this game that while Armsthrift is cool, it's not the result of God's grace or anything and it's just not worth having a significantly slower early game to have a slightly faster mid- and endgame.

20 is a gross overstatement. You'd have to be pretty bad at the game for raising Donnel to level 1 Mercenary to cost 20 turns. When I played, he maybe added 1 or 2 turns in a chapter like Chapter 7 to pick off a kill or two, and he only does that for a few chapters, and is easily a Mercenary at or before Tharja's joining chapter. Then he becomes a Mercenary and his stats wtfpwn everyone's right then and there already. He has E swords, but that can end in a single chapter since he doubles everything on the map and has good durability. Lol Wyverns with axes, ggs scrubs, die to BRONZE.

HOW 'BOUT THIS!?

Have you read Donnel and Panne's supports? He catches her in animal traps constantly because she's retarded. Donnel always defeats and captures Panne, and then eventually knocks her up after defeating her in the bedroom too. Donny is a GOD.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Inui

[Blademaster!]

Frankly, with the amount of effort it seems to get Donnel up to par, I'd honestly rather use Nowi. She's pretty much always guaranteed to have 1-2 range, doesn't even need Sol since nothing can even hurt her, and requires much fewer resources to get up to par. Even if he does become this godly unit, I can still use Nowi to get the job done just fine regardless. Honestly, making Donnel a Mercenary seems stupid IMO just because of being stuck to 1 range for so long.

[Legault!]

I'm not big on Stahl (though the only Hard run I used him in was my first run in which I barely even knew about Pair Up), but I've never known anything about Sully to "taper off." Female Avatar aside, she's probably the most efficient candidate for Chrom's wife (only Sumia really competes), and the two of them together quickly become an unstoppable wall of death; at least by the time Tharja shows up.

While I will agree that Tharja is underrated and Henry is definitely underrated, I can't see them as high as some of you think they should be. It's true that they have problems before going rape mode, and the units in S and A tiers, barring Frederick for obvious reasons, can quickly become super-powers that basically solo the game just the same anyway. I tried arguing Cherche down before for late join and laughable re-class options, and Miriel and Vaike probably ought to go down as well, so Tharja should at least be at the bottom of A tier, but not sure I can see her any higher. Henry would probably be bottom of B tier.

A Chrom!Sully "wall of death" is mitigated by mediocre 1-2 range (javelins in this game are bad) and a lack of in-battle healing like Nosferatu. Not seeing Sully > Tharja at all.

And as Inui points out, Panne - as good as she is - doesn't reach the same level of move -> end turn invincibility that Tharja gets due to a plethora of weaknesses. She's amazing and arguably above Tharja, but Tharja certainly deserves S. I am unwilling to budge on this one.

EDIT: Also, for those saying that Donnel is bad because Panne has "second seal priority" I have an important news flash: Avatar wants that second seal so, so bad. I think we need to end these net versus gross discussions right here and now and assume all units get equal hypothetical access to the first second seal.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Legault!

[Florete]

Nah. Donnel, Henry, Tharja, etc. are WHY the game is easy. Can Panne ever just be sent forward into a lategame map at random, just fully forward into all enemies, end turn, hit start, and survive?

Tch, noob. I turn off enemy phase completely. Fewer button presses = more efficient.

A Chrom!Sully "wall of death" is mitigated by mediocre 1-2 range (javelins in this game are bad) and a lack of in-battle healing like Nosferatu. Not seeing Sully > Tharja at all.

When the Dual Attack rate is pushing 90%, Javelins being weak literally almost never matters. Healing doesn't really matter either since they'll rarely take so much damage, and if one does, Switch! Plus Chrom has the Convoy so as long as you've bought healing items, they have access to everything in case of emergency.

[Dark Sage]

Can't Panne just stack a bunch of avoid and avoid getting hit? She certainly has the means too: Even Rhythm, Tantivity, Quick Burn, and of course supports (plus pair up bonuses from someone like Lon'qu whose apparently her best option, idk if that part is true). So she might very well be able to just go into a field of enemies and survive unscathed. I'm not taking a side here, I'm just posting an argument that hasn't been addressed.

[Lord Raven]

Nah. Donnel, Henry, Tharja, etc. are WHY the game is easy. Can Panne ever just be sent forward into a lategame map at random, just fully forward into all enemies, end turn, hit start, and survive? No way. She doesn't have the stats, skills, or proper class acess for it. It's units like Donnel and Tharja that break the game, not Panne.

I've played the game and it's easy before they even tried out Donnel, Tharja, and Henry, so don't even go there lol I played an HM draft drafting Tharja and her hit problems were ridiculous because her growth is low and one of her avoid killing skills only applies to adjacent units. If you attack from 2-range, then that skill doesn't work anymore. If enemies attack from 2-range, that skill doesn't work anymore. Once again, she's not worth it because you get effectively the same amount of effort and the same speed (if not faster) of ending chapters without Tharja than with Tharja/Henry/Donnel alone. Tharja's not ineffective but she is not completely reliable.

Also, to answer your question, yes Panne can do that.

20 is a gross overstatement. You'd have to be pretty bad at the game for raising Donnel to level 1 Mercenary to cost 20 turns. When I played, he maybe added 1 or 2 turns in a chapter like Chapter 7 to pick off a kill or two, and he only does that for a few chapters, and is easily a Mercenary at or before Tharja's joining chapter. Then he becomes a Mercenary and his stats wtfpwn everyone's right then and there already. He has E swords, but that can end in a single chapter since he doubles everything on the map and has good durability. Lol Wyverns with axes, ggs scrubs, die to BRONZE.

I made a miscalc somewhere but stop being an ass when you post. And don't use "you have to be terrible to use Donnel" because you still haven't provided any actual reason as to why it's that easy to raise him. It's still very inconvenient and the other units you have trained up until that point are still about as effective as Donnel in the long term, without the pain-in-the-ass it takes to use Donnel. Once again, very minimal

[Legault!]

When the Dual Attack rate is pushing 90%, Javelins being weak literally almost never matters. Healing doesn't really matter either since they'll rarely take so much damage, and if one does, Switch! Plus Chrom has the Convoy so as long as you've bought healing items, they have access to everything in case of emergency.

Plenty of enemies in Hard have beast-slaying weapons and Sully!Chrom simply can't tank entire armies. They can blitz (by which I mean move quickly) around the map, but won't get the same level of combat exposure as Tharja!Literally Anyone.

Chrom honestly wants FeMU or Sumia before Sully, but assuming Chrom!Sully S-Rank at the beginning of Chapter 12, consider Tharja gets infinite Nosferatu access at the beginning of Chapter 14 and will likely have a B-support by this point.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Legault!

[Inui]

Frankly, with the amount of effort it seems to get Donnel up to par, I'd honestly rather use Nowi. She's pretty much always guaranteed to have 1-2 range, doesn't even need Sol since nothing can even hurt her, and requires much fewer resources to get up to par. Even if he does become this godly unit, I can still use Nowi to get the job done just fine regardless. Honestly, making Donnel a Mercenary seems stupid IMO just because of being stuck to 1 range for so long.

It's not long. Please stop. He only needs to get to level 10 to become a Hero, and because his base level is 1 with the stats of a 20/0 unit, he will reach that level 10 Mercenary status in no time at all. Give Donny an Arms Scroll since nobody else really cares about them, and then he's got like C swords and D axes. Great stuff. His offense with Steel is better than everyone else with Silver.

Making Donnel a Mercenary is the ONLY option. The whole point of the kid is ARMSTHRIFT. That's how you take advantage of his 100% Luck growth. Ugh. Please stop.

A Chrom!Sully "wall of death" is mitigated by mediocre 1-2 range (javelins in this game are bad) and a lack of in-battle healing like Nosferatu. Not seeing Sully > Tharja at all.

And as Inui points out, Panne - as good as she is - doesn't reach the same level of move -> end turn invincibility that Tharja gets due to a plethora of weaknesses. She's amazing and arguably above Tharja, but Tharja certainly deserves S. I am unwilling to budge on this one.

EDIT: Also, for those saying that Donnel is bad because Panne has "second seal priority" I have an important news flash: Avatar wants that second seal so, so bad. I think we need to end these net versus gross discussions right here and now and assume all units get equal hypothetical access to the first second seal.

I agree that Tharja is slightly better than Sully and Stahl, but both Sully and Stahl are amazing.

Everyone wants a Second Seal. EVERYONE. ALL THE TIME. Panne having exclusive rights to it is insane, especially when THE AVATAR exists. It's like her depriving the Avatar or Donnel of it doesn't matter. Donnel is better after getting it. A LOT better.