FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Florete]

Pretty sure he was speaking in hyperbole. And he's right -- empty thought experiments that are wholly irrelevant are ridiculous.

Sure, but it's not like the discussion actually lasted for a significant length of time. In addition, every person who answered questioned its relevance in some way.

EDIT: Also, what does Hawkeye+ do? Is it some super version of Hawkeye that also ensures crits?

Edited March 24, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Legault!]

I can't believe I added a + to Hawkeye, my serious post is ruined

[Interceptor]

Assume you're correct. Brainless completion every time > brainless completion every time past the first time. Also consider who this tier list is for: people who know LTC strats inside and out, or less extreme players?

Shame on everyone who posted after this, and did not properly respond to it.

There are two things at play here:

1. A tier list is not a strategy guide. It lacks the proper information, and context. There is no indication, for example, that Panne is reclassed into something else. Someone with only two year's tennis experience, for example, would be pretty confused if they wandered into the thread. While there is a need for such things, this is a job better served by character guides. So when you talk about who a tier list is "for", understand that it is "for" the tier list debaters and nobody else.
   
2. The "tier player" should be assumed to have perfect knowledge of strategy, statistics, upcoming events/items, etc, to the extent possible by an actual player. This isn't because of some elitist tendencies, it's because this is the only level of skill that is reasonably objective. It removes such idiocy as "what if mistake!?!?", and also opens up the possibility for movement should someone discover something that would alter the playstyle of this fictional person.
   

Fin.

[Legault!]

1. So when you talk about who a tier list is "for", understand that it is "for" the tier list debaters and nobody else.
2. The "tier player" should be assumed to have perfect knowledge of strategy, statistics, upcoming events/items, etc, to the extent possible by an actual player.

Tier list debaters aren't perfect and tier list debaters can still appreciate that mash start -> win is still more efficient than playing out involved strategies and hoping he doesn't forget something important. Still, this is an interesting conversation.

I still want to know what "brisk pace" means.

[Interceptor]

Tier list debaters aren't perfect and tier list debaters can still appreciate that mash start -> win is still more efficient than playing out involved strategies and hoping he doesn't forget something important. Still, this is an interesting conversation.

I'm sorry for giving the impression that it was a conversation. I am Moses, and these are the ten commandments. You either understand the reason for it (an objective end to many debates about strategy), or you don't. It is not, as they say, subject to approval. There is nothing assumed about a tier player that's impossible for a normal person; nobody is predicting the RNG.

I still want to know what "brisk pace" means.

That's a question for SDS, but if I had to put on my Nostradamus hat for a moment, I'd say it's something related to an LTC without the brutally stringent strategic requirements (i.e. I need X MAG on this particular unit to Rescue Y, and this requires Z cascading steps into the past to set up). In other words, the "shave turns" argument. Going fast is better than going slow, because it exposes the real differences between units and makes durability/safety matter, but the extreme extension of that is TOO restrictive for discussion.

If you have a problem with that gray area, you may want to pull the ripcord before your mind is blown.

[Legault!]

There you go again assuming you're smarter than I am and feeling entitled to condescension.

"Brisk pace" needs a more concrete definition considering that Nosferatanking is incredibly broken and also costs quite a few more turns than optimal strategies.

[grandjackal]

"Brisk pace" needs a more concrete definition considering that Nosferatanking is incredibly broken and also costs quite a few more turns than optimal strategies.

"I object, your honor!"

"How come?"

"Because it's devastating to my case!"

Is not a valid argument. He pointed out the general criteria. Just because it doesn't work for your argument doesn't mean you get to say you want to hear what you want to hear.

By the way, did you really just say the thing you've been hyping is incredibly broken even though it costs quite a few more turns? Define "quite a few", because "quite a few" sounds like "slow as shit", in which case it's not broken and you're just playing turtle emblem.

[Legault!]

"I object, your honor!"

"How come?"

"Because it's devastating to my case!"

Is not a valid argument. He pointed out the general criteria. Just because it doesn't work for your argument doesn't mean you get to say you want to hear what you want to hear.

By the way, did you really just say the thing you've been hyping is incredibly broken even though it costs quite a few more turns? Define "quite a few", because "quite a few" sounds like "slow as shit", in which case it's not broken and you're just playing turtle emblem.

I'm pretty sure the consensus here is that Nosferatanking costs you a handful of turns (probably in the 5-10 range) over the course of the campaign. Feel free to challenge this. It's also not "working for my argument" to get necessary definitions.

[Lord Raven]

I'm not going to dig through and find your post, Legault, but I read it on my phone and didn't really bother to respond to it because I needed to get off. Now, I'm taking a break from grading and going to just post some of my thoughts on some of the stuff I remember reading.

- I'm still not sure how my Tharja had hit rates in the 60s and 70s when I was playing random HM drafts, because I remember being super on edge about her missing requiring a restart of the. It was a high risk, high reward situation. But I think what might've happened was that it was a 40-60% hit rate against her 80% hit rate, and there were certain things she came nowhere close to doubling compared to others she could barely double. So I think it goes between fixing her skill and hitrates or fixing her attack speed; I'd much rather fix her attack speed, but that leads to really iffy hit rates that barely break 100. The 40-50 evade thing was a guesstimate but I almost feel like there's a couple factors I'm not accounting for.

- War Monks in certain Valm chapters don't take much damage for her and they do quite a lot to her. Griffon Riders do a lot to her and she barely doubles them. Heroes and Swordmasters are problematic. She can't evade Snipers, who also have Prescience for enemy phase combat (where their avoid increases), and she can do damage to them but not nearly enough to heal her HP.

- Valkyries have high hitrates and don't ever get doubled by Tharja.

If doubling is an issue for Tharja without a Speed+ support, then doubling would be an issue for Henry WITH a speed+ support. And Tharja's hit rates are an issue without Skill+ supports, hence concluding that Henry and Tharja have some fatal flaws that, while make them usable and borderline clutch, don't make them necessary in the slightest. Their movement also doesn't make them the fastest units to get places, and they still do have the aforementioned problems I continue to bring up.

As for Gregor vs Vaike, my honest opinion is that Vaike while he could be a good #2 for that Second Seal he also provides very solid pair up boosts for a while, whereas Gregor doesn't have that sort of utility. I don't mind Vaike > Gregor at all, but that's my opinion on it; I want to hear what the OP's rationale is.

[Interceptor]

"Brisk pace" needs a more concrete definition considering that Nosferatanking is incredibly broken and also costs quite a few more turns than optimal strategies.

It really doesn't, though. These are the weeds in which we battle tier position. If Nos really costs a great number of extra turns, you're probably going to see the people that depend upon it (Tharja specifically) argued downwards, particularly if the increased pace slows down her critical mass of hit/avoid/dodge/doubling/defense by taking away valuable training time. In the end, since a tier list is not a character guide, these arguments are why (most of us) are here.

[grandjackal]

So now that we have it cleared up that Nos energy drink is indeed overrated since we aren't playing turtle emblem, anyone tried Tharja as a Dark Knight? +7 HP and +5 Def tends to get rid of any durability problems one might have, along with a much needed +4 Skill. 7 move on top of it.

[Shadow Mir]

So now that we have it cleared up that Nos energy drink is indeed overrated since we aren't playing turtle emblem, anyone tried Tharja as a Dark Knight? +7 HP and +5 Def tends to get rid of any durability problems one might have, along with a much needed +4 Skill. 7 move on top of it.

Actually, THE DARK KNIGHT gets 8 move, which is even bettar.

[Legault!]

It really doesn't, though. These are the weeds in which we battle tier position. If Nos really costs a great number of extra turns, you're probably going to see the people that depend upon it (Tharja specifically) argued downwards, particularly if the increased pace slows down her critical mass of hit/avoid/dodge/doubling/defense by taking away valuable training time. In the end, since a tier list is not a character guide, these arguments are why (most of us) are here.

Unless those extra turns fit within the "brisk pace" limit.

So now that we have it cleared up that Nos energy drink is indeed overrated since we aren't playing turtle emblem

"One other person agrees with me therefore "we" have agreed on something"

This board is incredible.

[Shadow Mir]

"One other person agrees with me therefore "we" have agreed on something"

This board is incredible.

Hey, I always thought Nosferatu was overrated.

[Legault!]

Hey, I always thought Nosferatu was overrated.

Sorry, I didn't mean to forget to include your voice in this. I'm just a little surprised we're going with majority-rules and not "who has the better argument" but hey.

[Lord Raven]

"One other person agrees with me therefore "we" have agreed on something"

This board is incredible.

"we" could mean almost anything, especially since nobody really argued mine

[grandjackal]

Unless those extra turns fit within the "brisk pace" limit.

I have a better idea. How about you give us exact turncounts rather than being vague? You don't have to wait for us to tell you if you're so confident.

"One other person agrees with me therefore "we" have agreed on something"

This board is incredible.

Raven, SDS, Interceptor, dondon and several others are just one person, huh?

I mean hey, we're sorry we didn't just agree with you at face value cause you used words like Nosferatu and Broken. You haven't really had an argument other than just saying that in response to anything. I can't imagine why it's hard to take you seriously. Maybe we're just awful people out to get you. Hell, maybe we're all just Vincent's alt accounts here to troll you.

Honestly, get over yourself.

[Legault!]

I have a better idea. How about you give us exact turncounts rather than being vague? You don't have to wait for us to tell you if you're so confident.

I don't run this tier list.

Raven, SDS, Interceptor, dondon and several others are just one person, huh?

And then you have myself, Inui, and Paperblade on the other side as well as others I'm probably forgetting.

Honestly, get over yourself.

I love irony, but this irony is profound.

[MercuryHg34]

Man, I'm gone for a day and I have 10+ pages to read. I tried to read through it all, but when I got to the part where everyone exploded I gave up. I did catch SDS's update though, so I should be fairly caught up. Just a couple of quick things that could help me get caught up more quickly and possibly contribute to currently pending discussions.

1. I also disagree with Panne moving up in tier.

2. As I mentioned way before, Nowi should go near the bottom of B tier, and someone else mentioned bumping Tiki to C tier as well which I agree with.

3. Someone mentioned something about Vaike reclassing to barbarian to fix his speed, personally I didn't and as a warrior that never reclassed he is still easily OHKOing everything he touches with no lower than 90% chance hit ever. And he always has the chance for doubles if he even needed it.

4. Some people are complaining about the "huge" deficit of having to start a new weapon at E, several cases in point being Panne/Lon'qu on E axes as WR and Kellam on E swords. My answer to that is forging worse-than bronze weapons. I gave my Panne a Ladle that had 6 or 7 mt and 9 crit, rightfully naming it "The Decimator" for just over 1K. Even without the crit boost it only costs 750 to make a weapon that surpasses Iron in every way and is wield-able at E, effectively solving any issue with E ranks except for range.

5. Another person suggested that DK or Valk are strong contenders for Female Morgan's best reclass options. I would agree, but I also have a suggestion of my own. My Morgan is currently an Assassin with Mov+1, Lethality, Ignis, Veteran and Mag +2. Given a Levin Sword with Miriel as her mother for support and she is literally immortal. Just throwing that out there in case anyone is interested in other reclass options for maybe slightly more effort.

Anything else I might have been able to think of I have forgotten by now. Now to try and actually jump back into the discussion at hand...

[grandjackal]

I don't run this tier list.

Ok, really? That's the lamest excuse I've ever heard. You post the turncounts, the rest judge, and if it's judged positively, then everyone puts this behind them and the list will change to reflect the knowledge.

Seriously, the only one stopping your argument is yourself right now.

And then you have myself, Inui, and Paperblade on the other side as well as others I'm probably forgetting.

I think Paperblade is only defending you from rudeness, not your argument, and Inui's arguments have been less substantial than yours so no one cares.

I love irony, but this irony is profound.

Hey man, I'm fine. I just think you need to calm down.

EDIT: Whoa, that was weird, my post broke the format of the site and looked glitched.

Edited March 25, 2013 by grandjackal

[Legault!]

I might have already hinted at a "new criteria" for this list earlier, but thinking out loud, we could either decide on a set number of turns (difficult to agree on, I imagine) or else set pretty reasonable, though not specifically defined, restrictions like "no turtling" (meaning no spending turns not actively trying to achieve the map objective).

And telling someone to get over themselves is really dumb, man. I'm just being honest.

[Interceptor]

Unless those extra turns fit within the "brisk pace" limit.

Not really. The difference between Nosferatanking and not, is a strategic rather than a tactical one. This isn't an "X maneuver saves Y turns" thing, it's a style that you use across a large portion of the game.

[eclipse]

More facts, less smug, kthx.

4. Some people are complaining about the "huge" deficit of having to start a new weapon at E, several cases in point being Panne/Lon'qu on E axes as WR and Kellam on E swords. My answer to that is forging worse-than bronze weapons. I gave my Panne a Ladle that had 6 or 7 mt and 9 crit, rightfully naming it "The Decimator" for just over 1K. Even without the crit boost it only costs 750 to make a weapon that surpasses Iron in every way and is wield-able at E, effectively solving any issue with E ranks except for range.

The rules of this tier list explicitly prohibit items obtained by event tiles/barracks. While it's an amusing idea, it doesn't fit in this criteria.

[Legault!]

Not really. The difference between Nosferatanking and not, is a strategic rather than a tactical one.

Not to pull an Interceptor on you, but I don't know what you mean.

[grandjackal]

Not to pull an Interceptor on you, but I don't know what you mean.

I think he means that you're using Nosferatanking as an overarching strategy for all maps rather than just "oh hey, this would be the perfect time and place to have a Nostank, I'mma throw my nostank there. Yay results".