FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Vorena]

I was sort of curious why Lucina (avie) is located as high on this tier list compared to say Stahl or Sumia given their much earlier join time. Is her efforts really so great in mid/late compared to them? Even with Lucina (avie) over Chrom is surprising to see. Is there any stats for her immediate join time versus those units?

Edited April 5, 2013 by Vorena

[Blademaster!]

With that same Arms Scroll, Flavia can take the Helswath and tank the entire top half of enemies in Ch 24; as a bonus, she doubles everything except the Valkyries, and thus has a decent chance of nailing a Basilio Dual Attack (which is obviously fatal to Wyverns when Basilio has a bow equipped). I've even tried this after removing Sol from Flavia. You can probably do something similar in Ch 23 after having Flavia take the Arms Scroll from Chrom on turn one or two. What I don't like about Yewfelle is that you're not going to have as productive an enemy phase.

And Basilio can't do the same without needing an arms scroll paired with Flavia why?

[grandjackal]

And Basilio can't do the same without needing an arms scroll paired with Flavia why?

I'd imagine it has to do with speed and the fact Basilio does not have it.

[Blademaster!]

I'd imagine it has to do with speed and the fact Basilio does not have it.

If Basilio is paired with Flavia, he either has the same or one point less speed depending on if they have a C support or not when compared with Flavia paired with Basilio(the example Redwall used).

Edited April 5, 2013 by Blademaster!

[Redwall]

What separates them in my mind is Sol; granted, it's not necessary in Ch 24. However, I could see Sol helping a lot more in Ch 23, where you don't have any forts or forests to exploit; also, I don't have any data on hand, but if Flavia doubles the Heroes in Ch 23, then that's another point in her favor. In both Ch 23 and 24, your units will be fairly spread out, limiting the usefulness of Rally Strength.

[aku chi]

I was sort of curious why Lucina (avie) is located as high on this tier list compared to say Stahl or Sumia given their much earlier join time. Is her efforts really so great in mid/late compared to them? Even with Lucina (avie) over Chrom is surprising to see. Is there any stats for her immediate join time versus those units?

I've been wondering the same thing. I'm on a brisk Lunatic run right now where I plan to marry Chrom and Avatar, so I'll post the base stats for my Lucina when she joins. I'm betting that Lucina (Avatar) needs to drop, probably to A Tier, but I can't make an argument until I have a good idea what her base stats are.

So the conclusion of my poorly explained run with Nowi/Donnel/Tharja (Please remember that I didn't use rescue to speed up clears, with the exception of two chapters : Severa and Tiki)

• How did Nowi gain 25 levels before C16?
  
• I haven't used Nowi, but I found Tiki's offense merely good (her durability was great). Tiki failed to double the fasest enemies (even with an Anna pair-up), failed to 2HKO most physical enemies, and had no crit or skills that could add damage. She was, therefore, often reliant on Dual Strikes to ORKO. Did you experience something similar with Nowi?
  
• Nowi > Tharja seems like a difficult argument to make. They join at a similar time. Tharja's start isn't quite as bad as Nowi's. Tharja grows to be effectively unkillable, like Nowi. But Tharja's offensive potential is greater with tomes like Ruin and Waste and skills like Anathema and Vengeance.
  
• Nowi > Vaike and Miriel, on the other hand, seems very plausible.

[Reiska]

How did Nowi gain 25 levels before C16?

This sums up most of my confusion with Nowi's current tiering, yes - most of it seems to assume that she gets a lot of kills fed to her which perhaps might be better fed to some other unit. My own experience suggests there's no question that Nowi performs well once she gets the EXP in her, I just don't see her meeting the performance metrics people ascribe to her without some really significant favoritism being in play, which means I don't see her getting the EXP to reach those performance metrics within the boundaries of brisk play.

[Interceptor]

Nowi benefits from showing up during a time when it's easy to train a new unit. I just finished Para 4 in my playlog, and she banked 5 levels from going Manakete-mode on half the map (she did not slow down my clear, and in fact made it easier because it allowed me to focus the rest of my army on a single objective). Ch10 is always a good training ground, because it has forts, and a Boss Kill in a far flung location, giving you plenty of time to turtle near the starting position with units that need EXP while your MVPs rush for the finish line. By the time Ch11 hits, she's already a rotation player.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Interceptor

[Reiska]

Nowi benefits from showing up during a time when it's easy to train a new unit. I just finished Para 4 in my playlog, and she banked 5 levels from going Manakete-mode on half the map (she did not slow down my clear, and in fact made it easier because it allowed me to focus the rest of my army on a single objective). Ch10 is always a good training ground, because it has forts, and a Boss Kill in a far flung location, giving you plenty of time to turtle near the starting position with units that need EXP while your MVPs rush for the finish line. By the time Ch11 hits, she's already a rotation player.

Hmm, looking at the maps and enemy stats again, I can see that; of course, I would be inclined to argue that she's possibly one of the most RNG-vulnerable units in the game because her niche quickly falls apart if she falls behind her speed average early and starts getting doubled by units with actual damage. I'm not sure how much bearing that holds on tier discussions though (I'm relatively new to this thing).

Edited April 5, 2013 by Reiska

[Interceptor]

RNG-screwage is a thing, and it's something you can take into account in arguments. It's one of the reasons why I like Cordelia over Sumia as a long-term flier: she comes with good bases for Hard Mode, which essentially makes her midgame more or less RNG-proof. But on the other side of the coin you have being RNG-blessed, and in Nowi's circumstance in particular you also have the following:

1. 50% SPD growth (probably), at a high leveling speed (this is better than a higher growth on someone who levels more slowly)
   
2. Guaranteed +5 SPD from Gregor after her joining chapter, which goes up to +6 once at A/S-rank support, and +7 SPD if he hits 20 SPD base
   
3. +2 SPD always from Dragonstones
   
4. +2 SPD available from Tonics on an as-needed basis
   
5. Speedwing available in Ch11, and again in Ch16
   

The tools exist to deal with it if Nowi is a little bit screwed: keep her on the Tonic IV drip for a little bit longer, maybe hit her with a Wing. I think that she'll generally be fine in almost all circumstances (and if she is blessed... look out, world).

[Reiska]

RNG-screwage is a thing, and it's something you can take into account in arguments. It's one of the reasons why I like Cordelia over Sumia as a long-term flier: she comes with good bases for Hard Mode, which essentially makes her midgame more or less RNG-proof. But on the other side of the coin you have being RNG-blessed, and in Nowi's circumstance in particular you also have the following:

1. 50% SPD growth (probably), at a high leveling speed (this is better than a higher growth on someone who levels more slowly)
2. Guaranteed +5 SPD from Gregor after her joining chapter, which goes up to +6 once at A/S-rank support, and +7 SPD if he hits 20 SPD base
3. +2 SPD always from Dragonstones
4. +2 SPD available from Tonics on an as-needed basis
5. Speedwing available in Ch11, and again in Ch16

The tools exist to deal with it if Nowi is a little bit screwed: keep her on the Tonic IV drip for a little bit longer, maybe hit her with a Wing. I think that she'll generally be fine in almost all circumstances (and if she is blessed... look out, world).

All valid points, although I'm somewhat hesitant to count the speedwings since she doesn't really have an exclusive claim to them, and I've heard a fair few people (not here, though) who are hesitant to give her the pairup because they could be giving that pairup to someone who doesn't have a weak start. Personally, I just think -that's- growth unit antihype, since most of the antihype I hear for Nowi comes from circles who put less weight on availability (and also tend to strongly dislike growth units) than I've observed to be the norm over here in lurking; in other words, they're perfectly content to just run manaketeless until Tiki shows up.

What level do we see Nowi making it to by the time Tiki's recruited, anyway? That feels pretty relevant to me, since if she's close to 30, she's closer to lowering her level, boosting her exp, and boosting her leveling rate than Tiki is.

(Edit: Did some quick math on availability there - Tiki has 8 maps of availability, static, since all the children paralogues you're going to do should be done by the time she comes around; Nowi has between 21 and 33 depending on how many child paralogues get done, of which between 13 and 25 of them are before Tiki joins. So there's a definite availability argument in Nowi's favor there, and I'd posit that Tiki only really trumps Nowi if the player waits on children paralogues, which is outside the purview of this tier list.)

Edited April 5, 2013 by Reiska

[Interceptor]

All valid points, although I'm somewhat hesitant to count the speedwings since she doesn't really have an exclusive claim to them, and I've heard a fair few people (not here, though) who are hesitant to give her the pairup because they could be giving that pairup to someone who doesn't have a weak start.

Well, keep in mind that we're only talking about Speedwings in a super-screwed situation: down to the point where Nowi is in danger of getting doubled, and can't level up fast enough to compensate. If taking them is a big negative, certainly we'd have to take into account that this happens only a small percentage of the time; there's probably something silly like a 95%+ chance that someone besides Nowi gets the Speedwings on her team. It's almost negligible.

As for Gregor, I'll argue that support all day. He is not a good unit on his own, and for people who want +SPD supports, there are many (many!) others available: Chrom, Sumia, Cordelia, Lon'qu, Panne...

What level do we see Nowi making it to by the time Tiki's recruited, anyway? That feels pretty relevant to me, since if she's close to 30, she's closer to lowering her level, boosting her exp, and boosting her leveling rate than Tiki is.

Too early for me to say, but I don't think that Tiki necessarily needs to be compared to Nowi in the first place. They are both Manaketes, but that's about it. Nowi's contributions to the game are in the bank before Tiki even shows up.

[grandjackal]

Having actually used Nowi before, I can say that I got her to 30 by Tiki's arrival (Kjelle's chapter was really nice to her).

My issue with her is that once she hits 30, her speed pretty much has hit it's cap, and unless she gets speed like every level, her speed always remains low. With that in mind, she seemed to essentially be permanently 2RKOing. She was never straight killing.

PEMN though, so Interceptor is right when he says we could do with more evidence.

[Interceptor]

When Nowi hits 30 you're supposed to reclass her into Manakete again. She doesn't cap SPD until it hits 33. This can require two reclasses, eventually.

[Florete]

Maybe it's just me, but I find needing a single stat booster to really not be a big deal most of the time in this game. There tend to be plenty with few who actually need any one specifically. In the case of Speedwings, by the time you've done Ch 16 and Paralogue 14 (Laurent), you've got 3 not counting Renown, Merchant shops, or Inigo's from his Paralogue. But there are so many ways to fix statistical problems I tend to forget I even have stat boosters.

[Blademaster!]

• How did Nowi gain 25 levels before C16?
  
• I haven't used Nowi, but I found Tiki's offense merely good (her durability was great). Tiki failed to double the fasest enemies (even with an Anna pair-up), failed to 2HKO most physical enemies, and had no crit or skills that could add damage. She was, therefore, often reliant on Dual Strikes to ORKO. Did you experience something similar with Nowi?
  
• Nowi > Tharja seems like a difficult argument to make. They join at a similar time. Tharja's start isn't quite as bad as Nowi's. Tharja grows to be effectively unkillable, like Nowi. But Tharja's offensive potential is greater with tomes like Ruin and Waste and skills like Anathema and Vengeance.
  
• Nowi > Vaike and Miriel, on the other hand, seems very plausible.

• On page 31, I gave the level up rates for Nowi, but what really allows her to gain so many levels is her ability to tank chapters 11 (mage side), 12, and 15. She didn't even gain any levels for chapters 10, 13, and 14.
  
• I never had any problems with Tiki doubling things with Say'ri and although she will have some trouble killing stuff at first, she levels up so fast that it more than makes up for such a problem, and then you get another really powerful tank that just can't die, unlike most other units I had who couldn't really tank very well due to low res.
  
• Tharja will only be unkillable with Nostanking, and Nowi only had trouble killing the few types of enemies I mentioned without dual attack on occasion. I haven't tested Tharja out too much yet, so for all I know I could see her being in S too. As far as her use in my run went, she was a bit slow in later chapters and got doubled by Assassin's and Swordmasters.
  

[aku chi]

• On page 31, I gave the level up rates for Nowi, but what really allows her to gain so many levels is her ability to tank chapters 11 (mage side), 12, and 15. She didn't even gain any levels for chapters 10, 13, and 14.

(reads...) Wow. I am genuinely surprised Nowi can level up so quickly. Your turn counts didn't seem to suffer, either.

• I never had any problems with Tiki doubling things with Say'ri and although she will have some trouble killing stuff at first, she levels up so fast that it more than makes up for such a problem, and then you get another really powerful tank that just can't die, unlike most other units I had who couldn't really tank very well due to low res.

I know that Tiki levels up quickly. I was able to get her to ~30/8 in my run. But she still couldn't 2HKO most enemies (certainly not the Generals, Great Knights, Warriors, and Berserkers). And she couldn't double the Swordmasters, Assasins, and some Valkyries, Falcon Knights, and Dark Fliers (IIRC). Don't get me wrong, it was awesome that she could tank physical units and magic units alike and ORKO ~half the enemies with Dual Strike support. But most of my other units had better offense, and my Sorcerer (Laurent (Avatar)) had better offense and durability.

• Tharja will only be unkillable with Nostanking, and Nowi only had trouble killing the few types of enemies I mentioned without dual attack on occasion. I haven't tested Tharja out too much yet, so for all I know I could see her being in S too. As far as her use in my run went, she was a bit slow in later chapters and got doubled by Assassin's and Swordmasters.

I believe Nosferatu is purchaseable after C12, so... that's when Tharja becomes effectively unkillable (if her shaky Avo and Eva can be cleared up with supports and stat boosters). I didn't use Tharja, but my Sorcerer Laurent trivialized the game in short order.

How do you plan to argue Nowi up to S Tier?

[Interceptor]

(reads...) Wow. I am genuinely surprised Nowi can level up so quickly. Your turn counts didn't seem to suffer, either.

I'm about to update my playlog with this, but it's worth noting that I haven't even completed Ch15 yet and my Nowi is already level 24. The combination of fast leveling speed and high durability (which allows for more exposure) is just ridiculous on her.

[Shadow Mir]

I'm about to update my playlog with this, but it's worth noting that I haven't even completed Ch15 yet and my Nowi is already level 24. The combination of fast leveling speed and high durability (which allows for more exposure) is just ridiculous on her.

Nuclear

Obliterator

With

Initiatative

As an aside, I saw Vengeance brought up in Tharja's favor, but that sounds like a rather shaky argument to me.

[Redwall]

As an aside, I saw Vengeance brought up in Tharja's favor, but that sounds like a rather shaky argument to me.

You seem to bring this up a lot, but you're missing the point; no-one is advocating that Tharja deliberately put herself in low-HP situations. Vengeance is intended to be a failsafe; if an enemy hits her with a Killing Edge and scores a lucky crit, Vengeance gives you a good chance at replenishing some of that extra damage. Although the player naturally prefers that she doesn't get hit at all, Vengeance on average adds to her survivability.

[Shadow Mir]

You seem to bring this up a lot, but you're missing the point; no-one is advocating that Tharja deliberately put herself in low-HP situations. Vengeance is intended to be a failsafe; if an enemy hits her with a Killing Edge and scores a lucky crit, Vengeance gives you a good chance at replenishing some of that extra damage. Although the player naturally prefers that she doesn't get hit at all, Vengeance on average adds to her survivability.

Maybe, but must we ALWAYS assume she's going Sorcerer? Is it really that much better than Dark Knight that it's a shoe-in for her promotion choice??

Edited April 7, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Lancer]

I cannot fathom as to Lissa's placement. Sure, her growths aren't great, but prologue+ healing is invaluable.

[Redwall]

I cannot fathom as to Lissa's placement. Sure, her growths aren't great, but prologue+ healing is invaluable.

Lissa doesn't need to heal anyone for brisk (or even absolute-lowest-turncount) clears of Prologue and Ch 1. Don't recall what I did in Chs 2 and 3, but I strongly suspect you don't need Lissa in those chapters either. Ch 4 favors all-out offense; Lissa is a waste of one of your six-ish deployment slots. Paralogue 1 favors a Frederick-rush to the boss.

[Elieson]

Who the hell doesn't heal In proloogue/Ch1?

[Interceptor]

^ I don't. That's what vulneraries are for. To the extent that I use Lissa, it's just to give her EXP from the staff pool.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Interceptor