why are jeigans in high tiers?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I think Jeigan was a well designed one as well

He is a good way to get Marth going, namely to deal with the axe land in the first three chapters, after which Marth can curbstomp the majority of the game.

Ironically at the exact same stage where Marth started to have a slight problem(namely, chapter 21), you can buy stats booster to turn Jagen into a Glass Canon*

Even before that, Jagen 10 Mov are pretty useful to deal with some thieves.

*too bad the only enemy that is actually a problem is like.... Camus and Gharnef

[Baldrick]

Prepromotes having higher growths (in games not called Awakening anyway) makes a certain twisted sense. The idea is that Oscar has >20 levels to grow and Titania has <20, and Titania's bases will perhaps not be as high as one would expect a 20/1 Oscar's to be, so in order for that to even out a bit she needs higher growths. You can kinda see the same thing with Seth/Franz, where Seth beats him in growths just about everywhere but their 20/1 stats are roughly comparable except Franz kicks his ass in SPD (but Seth has more CON unless Franz goes GK).

That makes sense, but of course as you said, they're not balanced at all in efficient play, only in casual play. Since in the former the growth units simply don't get exp quick enough to gain any sort of advantage before the steamrolling happens (especially in FE8/FE9 where the enemies are weakest).

If the goal is genuinely to make prepromotes fall off over time, their growths should probably be a lot worse than they are. Yet having said that, even Jagen and Arran are pretty damn useful thanks to awesome reclass options (in FE11/12) and ranks/bases, so maybe you can't really fix the problem. Prepromotes rock the 0% growth runs too, after all. As long as you aren't using them in dumb ways (like soloing whole maps), it's hard to argue they're ever going to be more detrimental as a pick than a unit that doesn't have all of their enormous advantages.

This is why I prefer the likes of Jagen, Sothe and Evyel as units since they're balanced from an efficiency standpoint. Make their advantage based in things other than raw stats so they smooth the difficulty curve rather then flatten it, or take away their capacity to maintain their advantage.

I'm completely against the idea of Jeigans having negative growth or leaving your army unless there's a very good story reason for either. I think sometimes people are too engrossed in the archetype and forget that the Jeigan are characters with backstories and personality like every other character, and some of us actually like them as characters and would at least have a shot at using them all the way through whether or not sustained on boosters, natural growth(in cases like Titania and Seth) or RNG blessed enough to give those boosters to other people (my Marcus last run), or even just fielded as a rescuebot/reclassed staffbot/doublebot . Negative growth/leaving army just takes out that option. They definitely shouldn't be as gamebreaking as Seth and Titania unless the point was to have a solo game button, but they shouldn't be completely unviable either.

You can't fool me, I know you're only opposed to the idea since it means you'd have to play through the game with weak-ass shits instead of an invincible murdering machine :P I think having a stint out of the party is good from a balance perspective, even the likes of Seth and Titania would struggle if the others were given a fair chance to catch up statwise. It doesn't necessarily have to be permanent.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Baldrick

[Chiki]

Jeigans are overrated to hell, but they still generally deserve top tiers.

The whole notion of "omg Jeigans are so good" came from a certain group of debaters a few years ago who have no idea how to play the game efficiently. That is, Jeigans are a waste of exp in efficient runs when you don't use them properly (not using them at all when they aren't needed to cut turns).

[Espinosa]

Jeigans are overrated to hell, but they still generally deserve top tiers.

The whole notion of "omg Jeigans are so good" came from a certain group of debaters a few years ago who have no idea how to play the game efficiently. That is, Jeigans are a waste of exp in efficient runs when you don't use them properly (not using them at all when they aren't needed to cut turns).

Being needed is not a feature that makes a characters rank among the best. Edward is needed, as is Athos. The recentest PoR discussion about Mia "shaving off a turn" also exposes the weakness of such thinking.

Even at a time where a Jeigan character isn't needed to cut turns, they can still eat a boss for self-improvement, maintaining competent combat with less investment (and effort!) than other units.

[Chiki]

Being needed is not a feature that makes a characters rank among the best. Edward is needed, as is Athos. The recentest PoR discussion about Mia "shaving off a turn" also exposes the weakness of such thinking.

Even at a time where a Jeigan character isn't needed to cut turns, they can still eat a boss for self-improvement, maintaining competent combat with less investment (and effort!) than other units.

I don't see why "Mia shaving off a turn" is a ridiculous debate. You might find it intuitively objectionable just because you feel that it's ridiculous, but that isn't rational at all.

What is rational is this. Tier lists are based on efficiency: low turns and reliability. We want to go for the highest combination possible, that is, the lowest possible turn counts with the highest reliability. Does Mia take away from reliability by cutting a turn? Not really. Then should she be awarded over Zihark for cutting a turn? Absolutely. Note that I said "over Zihark" only, meaning that I am advocating something that is very minimal in the first place. In a tier list about cutting turns, why shouldn't Mia be awarded?

You might find a single turn insignificant, but the idea of a tier list is still to go for the lowest turns. Saying "that's absurd!!!" isn't a good reason to reject an argument.

The idea is that they gain less exp than other units, so their self-improvement is insignificant.

[Espinosa]

You should know very well that I'm one of the few people who do find one turn important. Doesn't change the questionable logic behind stressing a contribution of saving one turn by taking a huge part of BEXP to... shove Ike two times.

Mia needs ~6 levels in Fixed Mode to match Zihark's base strength. She's a mediocre character without an initial investment and finds it hard to get herself combat exp without that investment/babying. Zihark can actually take a Seal and immediately serve as a ready bosskiller for the midgame chapters. You sticking to one single questionable contribution is very similar in essence to your stance on Marcia vs. Titania btw, except Zihark and Mia are nowhere as important as those two (which you do acknowledge).

[Chiki]

I grant your argument, then, is much more valid.

I think my and Hawk King's playthroughs have demonstrated that, while theoretically the bexp may seem like a big deal, it isn't that much of a detriment to reliability. Marcia only needs to be promoted by 12.

[Snowy_One]

Haven't been ignoring. Just been busy IRL.

Also, the 'Mia saves a turn' thing is kind of a mockery of the tier-list and how overly specialized it is. Though I do believe Mia > Zihark, I believe it because of Mia's superior skill set, weapon flexibility, and issues regarding supports. Not because of one turn that she may shave off before Zihark joins. That their tiering position was threatened (and even looks like Mia won and Cynthia just didn't update when I last looked) over a single turn is, to me, a sign of the tiers weakness.

[Chiki]

Who is more valuable to you: Meg or Jill in FE10?

[Florete]

Jeigans are overrated to hell, but they still generally deserve top tiers.

The whole notion of "omg Jeigans are so good" came from a certain group of debaters a few years ago who have no idea how to play the game efficiently. That is, Jeigans are a waste of exp in efficient runs when you don't use them properly (not using them at all when they aren't needed to cut turns).

Where does this idea come from? Even in cases where a Jeigan might not strictly be "needed," they usually make things significantly easier at no visible cost to the rest of the team. I don't want to hear you say others "don't know how to play the game efficiently" at the same time as you use the "waste of exp" argument. I don't care about your low turn runs, you clearly don't have a great grasp on what we mean by "efficiency."

[Chiki]

Where does this idea come from? Even in cases where a Jeigan might not strictly be "needed," they usually make things significantly easier at no visible cost to the rest of the team. I don't want to hear you say others "don't know how to play the game efficiently" at the same time as you use the "waste of exp" argument. I don't care about your low turn runs, you clearly don't have a great grasp on what we mean by "efficiency."

What do you mean by easy?

[Florete]

What do you mean by easy?

Less reliance on luck via dodging, hitting, etc., less need for healing, fewer worries for bad level ups.

[-Cynthia-]

Haven't been ignoring. Just been busy IRL.

Also, the 'Mia saves a turn' thing is kind of a mockery of the tier-list and how overly specialized it is. Though I do believe Mia > Zihark, I believe it because of Mia's superior skill set, weapon flexibility, and issues regarding supports. Not because of one turn that she may shave off before Zihark joins. That their tiering position was threatened (and even looks like Mia won and Cynthia just didn't update when I last looked) over a single turn is, to me, a sign of the tiers weakness.

Mia and Zihark are very close so overall even a situation where Mia could shave a turn before Zihark joins could be the deciding factor. Ultimately, I decided not to make the change.

[Hawkeye]

Olwen, just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on other Jeigans? You're one of the most vocal Jeigan haters (despite the fact that you still think they're top tier) but honestly whenever you say "Jeigan" I read "FE9!Titania" because that is the only one I've ever seen you discuss. Just curious about that since this topic is about Jeigans overall and you're never afraid to make bold statements about their usefulness or the people who like them.

I agree with Thor in that in terms of game balance, FE6!Marcus is probably the Jeigan that is handled the best, although I also think that FE11!Jagen and FE12!Arran are well done.

[Chiki]

Less reliance on luck via dodging, hitting, etc., less need for healing, fewer worries for bad level ups.

I grant that this is true very earlygame. I do agree that they should go into top tier, after all. But this fact simply isn't true after a certain point. After earlygame your units become nearly as good as your Jeigan due to their inability to grow stronger. It sure is true after C11 in FE9.

Olwen, just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on other Jeigans? You're one of the most vocal Jeigan haters (despite the fact that you still think they're top tier) but honestly whenever you say "Jeigan" I read "FE9!Titania" because that is the only one I've ever seen you discuss. Just curious about that since this topic is about Jeigans overall and you're never afraid to make bold statements about their usefulness or the people who like them.

I agree with Thor in that in terms of game balance, FE6!Marcus is probably the Jeigan that is handled the best, although I also think that FE11!Jagen and FE12!Arran are well done.

I like Jeigans, but I don't like it when people defend them like they're the best thing ever. They aren't perfect and they do have their flaws, and some people simply don't know the truth on how they drain exp. This is true for pretty much every Jeigan, not just FE9 Titania. It's true for Seth and so on as well.

Think FE9 Boyd/Mia and Marcia. In a true efficiency playthrough, you wanna give them as much exp as possible so they can cut turns, right? You want the lowest turn count possible, after all.

Some debaters in the past used to say "an endgame team with Titania is better than an endgame team without." That is contrary to what you should be doing in an efficiency playthrough--the point of which is to get the lowest turns with the highest reliability. Using Titania takes crucial exp Boyd/Mia and Marcia need to reach promotion for their goals in C9 and C12 respectively. They need exp from the part where Titania IS really useful--earlygame. And that really limits her usefulness even in earlygame.

Come midgame, Titania is totally arbitrary. Using her isn't going to award you in turns and it's only going to give you a trivial amount of reliability. After C12 your units are already going to be strong enough to one-round everything by themselves. And come 17-2, you're going to need Oscar and Kieran/Makalov both promoted to cut a turn in C17-2.

She gets wanked so hard that goddesses like Marcia and Jill get ignored--even though they end up cutting more turns than she does.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Olwen

[Renall]

I like how he asked you to talk about Jeigans that aren't FE9 Titania and you immediately launched into another rip on FE9 Titania.

[Chiki]

I like how he asked you to talk about Jeigans that aren't FE9 Titania and you immediately launched into another rip on FE9 Titania.

My bad. I'm not so experienced with other FEs (by that I mean LTC), but all those statements are true for other games as well.

[Refa]

But no other FE8 unit saves more turns than Seth...

[Renall]

But no other FE8 unit saves more turns than Seth...

On the other hand, arguably no FE unit is more broken than Seth. Certainly, not every Jeigan is Seth.

[Chiki]

But no other FE8 unit saves more turns than Seth...

That's not the point. I'm not denying that may be the case. All I am arguing is that they become useless after a certain point in the game, and that they are exp drains.

[Jedi]

That's not the point. I'm not denying that may be the case. All I am arguing is that they become useless after a certain point in the game, and that they are exp drains.

This is the same game where Dolza at base can double end game Lyon on hard mode. Seth roflstomps everything at all points of fe8

[Chiki]

This is the same game where Dolza at base can double end game Lyon on hard mode. Seth roflstomps everything at all points of fe8

One absurd fact doesn't make the rest of the game trivial. I'm sure FE8 efficiency playthroughs have their own exp requirements.

[Florete]

I grant that this is true very earlygame. I do agree that they should go into top tier, after all. But this fact simply isn't true after a certain point. After earlygame your units become nearly as good as your Jeigan due to their inability to grow stronger. It sure is true after C11 in FE9.

Honestly, I pretty much agree with what you've said here, I just disagree with the assertion that they are worthless after a certain point. Post FE6 Jeigans typically stay just as good as any other unit throughout the whole game if actually used properly. Marcus, Seth, and Titania certainly do, at least. Sothe doesn't really, but then his whole team kinda stops being useful at the same time he does. And this is reflected by him having a lower spot in tier lists than other Jeigans.

[Hawkeye]

My bad. I'm not so experienced with other FEs (by that I mean LTC), but all those statements are true for other games as well.

Okay, it's perfectly acceptable that you're really only experienced with the Tellius FEs, and you make excellent points about them that are backed up with your playthroughs that I've followed (It's how you present your points that causes problems). But since you acknowledge that, you shouldn't make generalizations about the other games. The Jeigan situation in 2, and 4 (no real Jeigans) is different from the Jeigan situation in 1 and 3 (terrible growths but OP boosters make that fact trivial), which is different from the Jeigan situation in 5 and 10 (Jeigans are very useful for the first few chapters and then gone for most of the game), which is different from the Jeigan situation in 11 and 12 (terrible growths but reclassing keeps them relevant) which is different from the Jeigan situation in 6 and 13 (very useful for earlygame, down to minor utility in mid-lategame) which, finally, is different from the Jeigan situation in 7-9 (Jeigans are very solid units throughout the entire game).

That is in no way meant to sound hostile, just saying that while Jeigans are an archetype, they work differently throughout the series.

Also, much like what I said about Snowy's arguments about tier list supporters, you are basically the only person I've seen making claims that Titania is so loved at the expense of ignoring other important units like Marcia and Jill.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Hawkeye

[Baldrick]

This is the same game where Dolza at base can double end game Lyon on hard mode. Seth roflstomps everything at all points of fe8

Actually, no. I remember I was doing a draft with Seth (I think it was an exp draft that had draftable Seth) and in the chapter where you recruit Duessel I was thinking of going for the bosskill for the quick end. Seth had something like a 3HKO against the boss with Silver, couldn't double, and was cut to ribbons by the mooks around the boss. He was pretty decently levelled at that point (since exp draft) so I can confirm that myth busted.