Alternate HM tier list

[Chiki]

[spoiler=Criteria and Rules:]Turns saved: A unit saves turns if and only if the lowest possible turncount in varying contexts for a chapter is higher without their presence. Consider the lowest possible number of turns you can get in one chapter, such as 2. We'll say for the sake of simplicity that the lowest number of turns for 2 is 4, including every possible option we have, as that is the context I am playing this game in now. But in the lowest possible clear of this chapter without Fredrick, the turncount goes up to 9. Therefore, Frederick saves 5 turns from 2 in this particular context.

Reliability: the chance that a unit will perform an action reliably. We will subjectively choose whether or not a strategy is reliable, but I think a good percentage to aim for is 60%. If Frederick has an around 60% chance to kill the boss, then I consider that to be reliable. If Frderick has a 20% chance to clear a chapter, then I reject that strategy as it is unreliable. It is hard to pick between a 60% chance of clearing a chapter in 5 turns vs. an 80% chance of clearing a chapter in 6 turns; however, I believe that we should go for the lowest reliable turn count. In this tier list, we aim for the lowest number of turns with the highest reliability possible.

Complexity: the number of calculations required in order to clear a chapter. For example, one does not need to think very much in order to clear Prologue, but it is far more difficult in order to conceive of a fast clear of 15, which is perhaps the most complex chapter in the game. Complexity is objective and it is not difficulty, which is subjective. 2 is the most difficult chapter in the game in my perspective, whereas 16, for example, may objectively be the most complex. Complexity is needed in order to prevent Edward from Radiant Dawn from rising to the top of the tier list in 1-P for his contributions.

Efficiency: What I define to be efficiency is aiming for the lowest possible turns with a subjective amount of reliability. The subjective part is left vague for you to determine what you find to be reliable for yourself.

Prologue: 3/5

Chapter 1: 3/5

Chapter 2: 4/5

Chapter 3: 3/5

Chapter 4: 1/5

Chapter 5: 3/5

Chapter 6: 4/5

Chapter 7: 3/5

Chapter 8: 3/5

Chapter 9: 4/5

Chapter 10: 3/5

Chapter 11: 3/5

Chapter 12: 3/5

Chapter 13: 1/5

Chapter 14: 2/5

Chapter 15: 3/5

Chapter 16: 2/5

Chapter 17: 4/5

Chapter 18: 1/5

Chapter 19: 1/5

Chapter 20: 2/5

Chapter 21: 4/5

Chapter 22: 2/5

Chapter 23: 3/5

Chapter 24: 3/5

Chapter 25: 1/5

Endgame: 1/5

This tier list is intended for efficiency playthroughs.

Rules

1. No Spotpass, Spotpass gifts or buying items from Spotpass.

2. No Renown items allowed.

3. No DLC chapters played.

4. Galeforce and Rescue are allowed an unlimited number of times.

5. Paralogues are optional; if you think you cut more turns from your overall turncount, then feel free to go to one. Otherwise it costs turns.

This tier list uses the least number of subjective criteria possible in an attempt to be logically rigorous. If you want to complain about the tier list being ultimately arbitrary, look at this post:

As has been mentioned ad nauseam, tier list necessarily has subjective criteria, since a tier list ranks characters based on criteria we subjectively prefer; that doesn't mean we should add more criteria than we need. Although this set of criteria remains subjective, it at least makes some attempt to avoid such ill-defined guidelines as "you must play quickly, but not too quickly lest, gawds forbid, an actually-good unit eats Nowi's lunch."

This tier list considers complexity-weighted turns and reliability. If a character costs turns and/or hurts reliability, and we tier rationally based on these criteria, he or she is a bad character under these criteria. Without adding more criteria, ignoring recruitment costs is inconsistent with the current set of criteria.

Deity Tier

Female Avatar

Turnshaver Tier

Sumia

Male Avatar

Cordelia

Frederick

Olivia

Libra

Top Tier

Miriel

Ricken

Sully

Stahl

Chrom

Lissa

Maribelle

High Tier

Gaius

Cherche

Lon'qu

Henry

Nowi

Mid Tier

Anna

Panne

Tharja

Say'ri

Vaike

Kellam

Low Tier

Basilio

Flavia

Gregor

Tiki

Bottom Tier

Virion

Donnel

Edited May 28, 2013 by Chiki

[Da Bear]

Avatar below Sumia because he/she has no flight pre-second seal and doesn't save as many turns in pre-Sumia time as Sumia saves.

[Elieson]

Soooooo, you're making a max LTC TIER LIST?

Where the fck are renown rulings?

[Da Bear]

Soooooo, you're making a max LTC TIER LIST?

Where the fck are renown rulings?

No renown obviously.

It hasn't been stated yet at least...

[Elieson]

Avatar below Sumia because he/she has no flight pre-second seal and doesn't save as many turns in pre-Sumia time as Sumia saves.

How quickly can Avatar gain 10 levels and reclass to a flying unit? (4 absolute earliest because renown second seal does exist, if we are considering it). Which is following a single chapter of Sumia exclusivity, where she isn't hogging any amount of kills.

If we could an Anna shop SS or the renown SS, then Avatar over Sumia. If not, Sumia over Avatar because turns

[Da Bear]

How quickly can Avatar gain 10 levels and reclass to a flying unit? (4 absolute earliest because renown second seal does exist, if we are considering it). Which is following a single chapter of Sumia exclusivity, where she isn't hogging any amount of kills.

If we could an Anna shop SS or the renown SS, then Avatar over Sumia. If not, Sumia over Avatar because turns

Renown, Idk about that... if we go with you grab renown as fast as possible I guess that could make sense... but if renown is done according to a first playthrough then that will take a while.

[Redwall]

Some broad-ish questions:

-Are complexity ratings determined assuming the optimal team, or are they weighed according to the ensemble of all possible low-turn clears (which may in general involve suboptimal characters)? -Cynthia- brought this up in the tiering philosophy thread, and brought up the example of Shadow Dragon: not complex with Warp, but noticeably more complex without it.

-Are Paralogues assumed, and if so, are they done ASAP or can they be postponed?

Tiering everyone precisely in LTC according to your criteria might be kind of tricky; aside from the obvious top tier (some permutation of Avatar, Frederick, Sumia, Cordelia, and staffbots), there aren't too many characters who are unique contributors. Sully and Stahl are both required for a reliable three-turn clear of Ch 3, but beyond that, they can probably be benched with no harm to turn counts or reliability.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Loony Lovegood

[Narga_Rocks]

So, are you going to tier every child with every potential father? If so, how about do it like the RD tier list does transfers. Make a list without the children, or at least the best version of each child, and then for the list which includes all the children from every father just put it in spoilers. Having a list with all the characters and all the possible children will just look too huge.

[Melonhead]

I really don't know if a tier list would work too much for a game like Awakening, which promotes the risen grinding and spotpass sections of the game-so one could easily use a "bad" unit to their full extent, unlike in past Fire Emblem games.

With children characters being so different depending on the situation, I'd use a control for each 2nd gen character: Lv. 1 promoted parent, and a Lv. 1 Grandmaster Avatar, without best stats added into the mix.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Melonhead

[Florete]

I really don't know if a tier list would work too much for a game like Awakening, which promotes the risen grinding and spotpass sections of the game-so one could easily use a "bad" unit to their full extent, unlike in past Fire Emblem games.

Sacred Stones has been tiered for years.

[cyron]

I think it would be wise to start by teiring all non-children characters(the not including dlc/spotpass), we could have a discussion on sf drafts to create the preliminary teir list just so we have everyone down and then we would have some frame work beyond your guidelines to work off expediting the creation of the tier list. it could be held sometime tomorrow.

[Randa]

So is this a tier list for drafts or something?

[Constable Reggie]

It's a tier list for contrarians.

[Chiki]

No Renown, SpotPass, DLCs, grinding, etc.

Yeah, this tier list is for drafts and efficiency playthroughs.

Also, Loony, you'd be surprised how useful other characters can be in LTCs. Look at my FE9 and 10 tier list. They're just like other tier lists.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Olwen

[eclipse]

As this is a FE13 tier list, can you put your definitions in terms of FE13?

[Anouleth]

This tier list would actually be pretty poor for drafts since this list assumes optimal play... which is rarely possible in a draft because you have a limited set of characters.

[Chiki]

Actually, the criteria set out in this tier list are extremely useful for drafts.

The turns saved criteria considers the next lowest possible clear of a chapter without the tiered character. The difference is how many turns the character saves.

It goes without saying that the characters which save most turns are the best for drafts, and so on.

[Anouleth]

Actually, the criteria set out in this tier list are extremely useful for drafts.

The turns saved criteria considers the next lowest possible clear of a chapter without the tiered character. The difference is how many turns the character saves.

It goes without saying that the characters which save most turns are the best for drafts, and so on.

No, it doesn't. The marginal value of adding Jill when you're free to use every character in the game is very different from the marginal value of adding Jill when you can only use a small handful of units. A good example is Nolan. While Nolan does not save many turns normally because of the existence of characters who can do his job better, in drafts, he is very good because those characters are often unavailable, and is often a first pick. Aran doesn't save any turns at all normally; in drafts, he is a 1st or 2nd pick.

[Chiki]

While Nolan does not save many turns normally because of the existence of characters who can do his job better,

This is considered in my tier lists. So for example, while Boyd > Mia in FE9, that doesn't mean her ability to shave a turn in Chapter 9 doesn't exist. The potential of her being used is still there. She still gets points for having the potential to do something.

Same goes for Nolan, Aran, etc.

[Da Bear]

No Renown, SpotPass, DLCs, grinding, etc.

Yeah, this tier list is for drafts and efficiency playthroughs.

Also, Loony, you'd be surprised how useful other characters can be in LTCs. Look at my FE9 and 10 tier list. They're just like other tier lists.

In this case Sumia > Avatar seems like a great idea to me. Let's see what the Avatar is saving real quick.

Prologue: 1-2 turns

With rigging you could get the exact same count but this is about reliability as well so I'll consider it being 5 turns w/o the Avatar

Chapter 1: 1 turn

Sully with Chrom can do everything but the boss who dies on turn 4 to anyone.

Chapter 2: 0-1 turn.

Sully can again do a lot of stuff with Chrom support. You might lose a turn w/o the Avatar.

Chapter 3: 1 turn.

Nothing big.

Sumia proceeds to save a massive amount of turns.

Edited May 11, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Chiki]

Avatar has Veteran and gets Galeforce more quickly.

[Da Bear]

Avatar has Veteran and gets Galeforce more quickly.

No renown = Avatar not going pegasus until Chapter 8~...

How does she get it faster?

[Anouleth]

This is considered in my tier lists. So for example, while Boyd > Mia in FE9, that doesn't mean her ability to shave a turn in Chapter 9 doesn't exist. The potential of her being used is still there. She still gets points for having the potential to do something.

Your FE9 tier list is different from this one because the concept of "turns saved" isn't as rigidly defined. If that list used the same criteria as this one, Mia would have to go down because she doesn't actually save turns, any more than Soren or Ilyana do (because you don't need them to get the lowest possible turncount).

Same goes for Nolan, Aran, etc.

But Aran doesn't save any turns (or if he does, it's a very low number). Can you name a single chapter where you can't get the lowest possible turncount without Aran? If you can't, then Aran doesn't save any turns, by either the definition on this list, or the definition on the FE10 list.

[charlie_]

um

Prologue is 3, Avatar saves a turn there.

Chapter 1 is 2 min (highly unlikely) or 3 reliably. No Avatar = 4 turns

Chapter 2 is 2 min (even less likely) or 3 reliably. Don't need Avatar for either of them.

Chapter 3 - any speed pair can replicate Avatar's contributions to the 4 turn, I don't think he's needed for the 3.

So Avatar saves 2-3 turns exclusively, possibly more in chapter 3.

Aran shaves turns in drafts. Hell, Nolan and Ilyana can 4 turn 1-4 with enough abuse. Edward does it somewhat reliably iirc at his averages with a Draco.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Serious Bananas

[Chiki]

Your FE9 tier list is different from this one because the concept of "turns saved" isn't as rigidly defined. If that list used the same criteria as this one, Mia would have to go down because she doesn't actually save turns, any more than Soren or Ilyana do (because you don't need them to get the lowest possible turncount).

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. Mia does shave a turn in Chapter 9 via a shove.

Boyd is the only other one who can do it, and he is more likely to be in play. But just because he is more likely to shave that turn doesn't mean Mia should get no credit. Mia gets credit for having the potential to shave a turn.

This is why this tier list will be useful for drafters and efficiency players alike.