Javelins and Hand Axes

[dondon151]

yeah, but that would simply be annoying

as would reducing their hit. play FE6 and tell me that you enjoyed all of the misses.

[Rehab]

Actual javelin throwers simply carried more than one, or at least the ones on horse did, and they were a lot smaller than the average spear. Ingame, the whole "I can theoretically have more than 50 javelins on me at once, and still have room to carry a sword and an axe" thing pushes our suspension of disbelief, sure, but so does being able to hold 5 axes, or 5 of any kind of weapon at once without being held down by it. For the sake of the gameplay, I think there are probably better ways to balance them than to give them zero durability.

Though subjectively, I'd just prefer to not see them very much. Let the ranged classes have their thing, find some other way to give the melee classes relevance. Maybe only give them two range and/or doubling ability for one actual battle round per turn, so some badass couldn't just wander into a crowd of archers and/or mages and beat them at their own game.

For my part, I can't stop focusing on how ludicrous it is to imagine that anybody could throw a spear/axe even as far as a shorter bow is capable of shooting, never mind as accurately, but then that's a pet peeve unrelated to balance. Still drives me nuts, though

Edited June 23, 2013 by Rehab

[Vashiane]

Actual javelin throwers simply carried more than one, or at least the ones on horse did, and they were a lot smaller than the average spear. Ingame, the whole "I can theoretically have more than 50 javelins on me at once, and still have room to carry a sword and an axe" thing pushes our suspension of disbelief, sure, but so does being able to hold 5 axes, or 5 of any kind of weapon at once without being held down by it. For the sake of the gameplay, I think there are probably better ways to balance them to give them zero durability.

Though subjectively, I'd just prefer to not see them very much. Let the ranged classes have their thing, find some other way to give the melee classes relevance. Maybe only give them two range and/or doubling ability for one actual battle round per turn, so some badass couldn't just wander into a crowd of archers and/or mages and beat them at their own game.

For my part, I can't stop focusing on how ludicrous it is to imagine that anybody could throw a spear/axe even as far as a shorter bow is capable of shooting, never mind as accurately, but then that's a pet peeve unrelated to balance. Still drives me nuts, though

Suspension of disbelief, at your service.

I wouldn't recommend making them expensive, as some characters like Cordelia can just make them. Although they should be fragile and weaker. Like 5 uses, 3 MT?

[Chiki]

How come Nephenee goes and picks up her Wishblade from Deghinsea after throwing it at him?

[dondon151]

For my part, I can't stop focusing on how ludicrous it is to imagine that anybody could throw a spear/axe even as far as a shorter bow is capable of shooting, never mind as accurately, but then that's a pet peeve unrelated to balance. Still drives me nuts, though

you could implement this by making javelins unable to counter bows

[Rehab]

you could implement this by making javelins unable to counter bows

..I might like this idea better, actually, thank you

[RNG Princess]

I think they should be less common and maybe a tad more expensive.

[arvilino]

all making handaxes and javelins unable to double would do is make magic an even more superior 1-2 range option, especially in a game like fe13 with mounted magic users

If handaxes and javelins are unable to double and all magic users keep their really low defense(like single digit even for promoted units) it'd probably work out. Durability has one of the biggest roles in the effectiveness of 1-2 weapons.

So you'd have a case where physical units with Hand axes and Javelins are able to do a little damage to a lot of enemies in a turn whereas magic users will do a lot of damage to a few enemies in a turn.

Edited May 14, 2013 by arvilino

[sunshineYON]

Make then have 1/1 use. Makes sense, right, guys? Guys?

[edza90]

Javelin and Hand Axes does this damage.
Total atk - 1/2 def + 1/2 res
They can double with a + 8 speed advantages, they are guite heavy

[BlueFire]

I'd like them to nerf them like they did to artillery in FE13 and I wish they weren't able to be forged.

[CT075]

i would just keep them as is but drastically lower their availability (don't offer them in shops, only drop the occasional one)

would probably also be best not to spam them on enemy units just to make it not stupid

[shadykid]

Magic users tend to have poor durability, so they can't take on a whole squad of units on the EP (which is the main reason hand axe/javelins are considered unbalanced)

I dunno, FE13 magic users (except Miriel) are pretty tanky/can use Nosferatu

[The Fush]

Javelins and Hand Axes seem legit enough as it is. The best way to nerf them is with even further reduced power and accuracy, which might make bows more appealing (or just make everyone want to use Sorcerors)

[Topaz Light]

I think it could work to make it so that Javelin/Hand Axe-line weapons consume uses at long range even if they miss. It doesn't solve the whole problem but it's sort of a start.

Although the logic behind this would have to be applied to Bows too for the sake of consistancy...

[SB.]

I like Cam's idea, or having them be super expensive.

[FrostyFireMage]

If they were far less durable and accurate i.e. 10 uses each they would be inferior to magic and bows.

[shadykid]

I think it could work to make it so that Javelin/Hand Axe-line weapons consume uses at long range even if they miss. It doesn't solve the whole problem but it's sort of a start.

Although the logic behind this would have to be applied to Bows too for the sake of consistancy...

this doesn't do much though because after a certain point you won't miss anymore....

[Snowy_One]

IMO.

1) Introduce ranged swords/throwing knives.

2) Make hand-axes and javelins unable to double.

3) Reduce avalibility but make them still buyable.

4) Call it a day.

Look. Making the throwing weapons rarer won't change a thing unless they become so rare as to make them pointless. About the only fair 'balance' I can see is to have them be actually quite common (even though that hurts bows and magic), just enemy-only and needing a thief to steal in order to get them. Even then all that does is make it so tier-players and casuals obsessively steal as they'll still be better than their counterparts. So reducing availability won't work. It should still happen if only to make them actually worth something (similar to how an early-game steel weapon is useful despite not being anything special), but it's not huge.

Also, let swords into the freaking loop! They get low MT, high hit (which is usually useless), and don't get ranged weapons? If you're gonna have them, play fair!

[-Cynthia-]

I think they're balanced in some games. FE6 gives them such questionable accuracy so they're situationally useful, the DS games reduce their MT significantly etc.

[dondon151]

FE6 gives like, everything questionable accuracy, except for killer weapons. otherwise i would still use a javelin or a handaxe all the time.

[Snowy_One]

Besides, reducing accuracy puts things in the hands of the RNG which is NOT where you want to be. I don't hate the RNG or anything, but I also don't want to plan a turn around 'well IF he manages to hit and kill'.

[Dragrath]

-low avalibility

-low might

-sub par acuracy

-would not be able to be forged

-make them expensive and the basic ones(Javelin/Hand axe) would only show up in stores late game

-make only the basic ones be comonly buyable (only 1-2 Spears/Tomahawks either from chests, boses,)

-Short spears/short axe would be uncomon finds (enemies, chests, secret shops)

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Basically, I've tried to balance these before, and I thought what I ended up doing (similar to FE13's approach) worked well enough.

> Make them about 50-75% more expensive per use compared to weapon of equal wep rank req. (E/D/C/B/A/S).

> Lower their MT considerably (I found having 6-8 less MT to comparable weapons was the sweet spot for the GBA games, at least).

> Increase their WT -- bonus points if you delete Body Rings from the game so that they always bring an AS penalty (enough to prevent doubling in most cases, not enough to be doubled in most cases).

> Make their accuracy about 5-15% less than comparable weapons.

They end up being very useful, but only situationally, like when you need a little extra chip. Archers/mages will always be better at chip, but the option is there and, at times, vital to certain strats. Oh, and I forgot the most important thing:

> Enemies need to be strong enough compared to your guys to make these changes relevent. Doesn't matter if you nerf them if you can stick a 1-2 range wep on your Jaigan and solo the entire map with sufficient offense. GBA FEs are especially guilty of this.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[MacLovin]

I kinda like Cams idea of making them uncommon enemy drops.

My spin on that would be to make them buyable at a high price when Killers/Reavers become availible.