Super C9++ - Game over, Town Wins!

[Grace]

Manix, if you're not going to read the thread, don't vote. I can't seriously defend myself against an ED1 gutread while you completely disregard interactions between me and Strege.

yes i read your iso, don't assume

i still think you're scum

and this reaction just helped it immensly

[Grace]

@me reacting badly to pressure- How do you expect me to react at everyone jumping on my wagon for dumb reasons? I can't even analyze the people doing it really, because they all did it for more or less the same reasons.

they weren't dumb reasons because i called you directly out on being a real hypocrite in that regard during d1 (main case)

bottom line is you keep overreacting past the point what any townie (and town!BBM) would

[Grace]

I can't seriously defend myself against an ED1 gutread while you completely disregard interactions between me and Strege.

and back to this because my posting is so sporadic

it's not just a ed1 gutread bbm i'm just taking that as part of the reasoning why i think you're scum (hint: look at my case that I made during d1)

and i acknowledged the possibility of interactions between you and strege here so don't assume i'm not reading or trying to think about it

you're discrediting me without actually defending yourself from what i'm arguing, so you have to go

[Sunwoo]

Since when has Strege not flipped? Did you even read my post? I explained why the interactions between Shin and Strege were likely to be bussing. Strege only voted Shin after he had already been called out for not pushing his main read. I'm not just saying "bussing exists". Admitting bussing exists doesn't mean anything. You have to look at each interaction and whether it's likely or not to be bussing. Strege pushed Shin but never voted him on the pretext that Shin already had votes on him. Shin voted Strege on an activity prod and unvoted as soon as Strege posted anything at all.

On the other hand, Strege pushed me as an alternative wagon to defend himself. I was one of the earliest people to vote Strege for a serious reason and made it into a wagon on him. Which interaction looks more like scumbuddy interactions?

##Unvote, ##Vote: Shin

I'll be 100% honest, my read on Shin is severely biased by meta and this point is entirely based on meta. But from what I've seen in previous games, Shin ALWAYS does things that are considered "scummy" and he ALWAYS gets lynched because of it. The only game he's ever been scum in is Trainwreck, his first game where I explicitly told him to act clueless, so it's not like there's any "scum meta" or "town meta" of Shin's to go off on anyway. He's like Rapier in which he's an easy mislynch target if he's town. Which is why I'm wary of you constantly going after him.

Also, I am looking at your interactions with Strege. The second half of the phase throws my read off severely, because there is at least one or two things you did in early game that could tie to Strege as a possible scum buddy interactions. And I WILL need to reread the thread later in the phase because today I'm just too tired to really focus on anything for a long period of time. The thing is, your interactions with Strege before phase end are telling, but I'm not going to throw out EVERY single one of my suspicions just because of that.

And did you seriously tell Manix not to vote ...?

[Grace]

anyway i need a break my brain is starting to frizzle out and i might end up saying something that i'll regret later

i'll be back later

[BBM]

Manix, you read my ISO, said "hey these don't really look like buddy interactions so I'm just going to dismiss them due to ed1 gutread". So yeah, stop saying you're reading my posts properly and not basing this on the gutread. Your play here is reminding me of Group where I was townreading you until you started tunneling me on a bad point and I started a slapfight with you. I don't want to do it again.

And yeah Boron, I did, because he's not reading the thread.

Boron, I made a case against him. It wasn't based simply on Shin's actions, but also Strege's. Don't dismiss it as "but Shin always looks scummy". And if that's a problem, it's his, not mine. Respond to my case if you're going to defend him.

[BBM]

And also, your meta on me not overreacting is faulty. Refer to Trainwreck if you want examples of me overreacting as town. It was far worse than here, actually. IIRC Boron had me yelling and swearing in caps as part of her sig at one point.

And if anyone brings up me using self-meta as an argument for why I am scum, that is the only way I can rebut a meta argument.

[Sunwoo]

Yeah, here's another thing I don't like that you keep doing, BBM -- even in that post where you voted Shin. You keep on comparing scenarios, one involving you and one not involving you, to keep saying that "see, this person did the same thing as me but worse" or something of that line. This reeks of trying to make other people look bad and yourself in a better light, and I don't like it at all and I'm finding it scummy.

Perhaps you have a point on Shin and his Strege interactions. I'll go read back on that in detail when I am able to focus. As of right now, though, you really are my strongest scum read even now and I think I'm going to leave this here.

##Vote: BBM

[Sunwoo]

And also, your meta on me not overreacting is faulty. Refer to Trainwreck if you want examples of me overreacting as town. It was far worse than here, actually. IIRC Boron had me yelling and swearing in caps as part of her sig at one point.

And if anyone brings up me using self-meta as an argument for why I am scum, that is the only way I can rebut a meta argument.

I WAS A ROLE SWAPPER. I WAS GIVEN PSYCH'S ROLE JUST BEFORE HE WAS KILLED. THIS INCLUDES ALL HIS ABILITIES AND ALL HIS RESTRICTIONS.

HOW FUCKING STUPID DO YOU THINK I AM.

Lol. Good times.

On a more serious note, Manix, saying that BBM is overreacting to the point that any townie would do is a bit faulty. Personally, my worst overreactions have been as town. I mean, I suppose he could be overreacting for being BBM, but it shouldn't be a major point against him.

[BBM]

goddamnit

Can I not even defend myself in a straight-forward manner without it being scummy? In that last post, I wasn't defending myself by saying Shin was scummier. I defended myself and attacked Shin. I cited how Strege used me as a counterwagon and how I was a early Strege vote for why I was more likely to be town due to Strege being scum. It had nothing to do with Shin. I just put us beside each other because you're not comparing different interactions as which are more likely to be bussing and which are less.

You've basically made up your mind that I'm scum and Shin is town, and are therefore using the Strege flip as it pleases you- saying that my interactions with him could be bussing and that Shin's interactions with him could be town-scum because Strege voted for him at some point without actually looking into them.

I want someone to respond seriously to my Shin case.

[Sunwoo]

BBM, I have NOT made up my mind about anything, even if it may be hard to believe. I did say I was going to read through the thread again for Strege interactions when I was in a proper mindset, did I not? I just don't feel that there is enough material for me to agree that Shin is the scummiest person alive in the game for me, and of all the material that exists in the game your content is pinging me the worst. I'm not trying to "make up my mind" and be stubborn about it, but you're not convincing me of your own townliness yet.

It's not just right now, with you and Shin though. If I remember correctly in D1, you were doing it with other people as well. I mean, yes, I get your point, but you are still providing an example of your interactions to Shin's interactions with Strege. You are saying that your interactions look less like a bus. Therefore, are you not comparing your interactions and Shin's interactions and saying that his is worse?

[BBM]

I'm saying that my interactions don't look like a bus and that Shin's do. My case for saying those things don't mix. At the end, yes, I conclude that my interactions look less like a bus, but that's not part of the defence. I'm not using that as a reason for why you shouldn't vote for me.

[Prims]

Im mafia

[BBM]

BTW, part of my Shin case is also that in this post, he defends me by pointing out how I was an early Strege vote. Then, only eight minutes later, he turns around and attacks me by saying my Strege case was only me trying to defend myself. This is pretty contrary.

Additionally, while I did compare myself to others at times last day, to the best of my recollection I never did so with Strege. I was only a small part at best of my case against Strege. And besides, if I were scum, why would I even want to divert attention onto a scumbuddy? And one that was at the time receiving far less attention than me.

[BBM]

Prims, you haven't "basked" in the MotK game postgame for 30 minutes. Kindly contribute please.

[Prims]

##Vote: BBM

[BBM]

you're still voting tables actually

[Prims]

Here's what I gleaned from the Strege flip:

- Not inclined to think BBM was bussing; wouldn't lynch until more options have been exhausted. Strege not trying to push him as a counterwagon is Weird though so I can't say I feel safe about him.

- SB sticking his vote on Rein over Strege at consolidation time when nobody else was voting Rein is bad bad bad. Also not sure where his point on Rapier from late D1 (which I agree with) went today.

- Rapier's last minute unvote from Strege to create a counterwagon is the most egregiously scummy thing in the thread and I'm surprised nobody has attempted to seriously press it. He claimed all he had on Strege was a personal meta-tell, but he also admitted that meta-tell was a scummy move regardless of meta in his #184, so why was it suddenly OK when weighing BBM/Strege? Also, why was Strege's unproductive SSG vote suddenly valid after his defense? Considering that Rapier's vote on Strege was initially presented as a prod rather than an actual scumread and Strege's only opinion on Rapier was very noncommittal, I think this is the best target for today.

- Both Shins can probably be written off as very unlikely buddies at this point.

Thoughts on other people:

- Rein doesn't look very good; scum can reaction test too and his D1 was mostly Kay-focused. General question for him, what kind of reactions were you looking for from the Kay flip, and what did you take from how people actually responded?

- Not fond of scorri having one D1 contentpost and opening up her D2 with a lurker prod. Reads really effortless. There are no real interactions to speak of here. Would be my second pick for a lynch right now.

- I thought Boron looked really townie but I realize she basically ignored Strege for the entirety of D1. Why was he not worth talking about, Boron?

##Unvote

##Vote: Rapier

Would vote scorri next and SB third.

[BBM]

His frustration felt genuine to me, and I didn't think his RVS stuff was really scummy.

Rapier's #191 unvote irks me, since Strege is probably scum at this point.

I really haven't been feeling mafia lately =/

I want SB to clarify something here. At the time of #191, Strege hadn't been CCed by SSG. So why does Rapier's unvote irk you? If he's town (and even if he's mafia, for that matter), he couldn't have known that SSG was about to CC Strege.

[Grace]

I have bad internet right now and can't make a content post but read the rules about voting (don't need to unvote before revoting)

[Grace]

I have one other thing to say: BBM; yes you've overreacted as town before, that's fine, but it is not the be all end all to prove that you're town overreacting

I (me, myself and I) think that your reactions to that point were scum driven over town driven and your meta point is not dissuading that

[Grace]

I'll look at the recent posts in more detail when I'm home

[BBM]

I wasn't using that as a defence against your entire case, just against the point that I as town wouldn't react to that extent.

Prims, what happened to what you were saying near the end of D1 about Shinori and Strege being buddies? Personally I don't think that's likely but I want him to explain his thoughts about Prims/Strege being buddies.

[Sunwoo]

- I thought Boron looked really townie but I realize she basically ignored Strege for the entirety of D1. Why was he not worth talking about, Boron?

If I recall correctly, I poked him earlygame about his post and vote on Shinori, then got distracted by stuff about BBM that I spent most of my energy on. By the time people started bringing up Strege, I was busy working on something related to my thesis and too tired/distracted to look through his stuff again. It wasn't so much that he was not worth talking about, but I had my focus elsewhere and by the time he did get up I was slightly IRL impaired.

[Prims]

BBM: Changed my mind at the start of the day. I already mentioned this.