Super C9++ - Game over, Town Wins!

[BBM]

Rapier's voting patterns make me go ;/ He starts with voting me when a few people already are, and as people start unvoting me and voting Strege, he unvotes me and votes him as well. What makes it worse is that just before he switches to Strege, he still devotes a little portion of the post to attacking me, so his opinions of me clearly haven't really improved. So why the switch? Why is Strege worse than me? And since he still has me as scummy, he keeps himself open to switching back later.

Strege- what exactly could I have said that would have made my vote switch look good, in your eyes? After unvoting, I could either still find Prims suspicious, or find him town. The former is what I did, while if I did the latter, you could call me out for a drastic change in opinion. I don't really like that point of your's because of it. I also haven't been mafia in a non-anonymous game for a pretty long time, and my play has probably evolved since then, so tbh I'm not even sure how my play differs from town to mafia at this point.

[Sunwoo]

Why?

Because I'm not confident at this time that he will flip scum? Because there are other people I'd rather lynch over Prims at this moment?

[Paperblade]

I read over Prims+Strege

##vote: Strege

When Shin votes him, I feel like Strege sort of brushed aside Shin's vote (although I don't think

I think his focus on Shinori being ambiguous is a little weird. I didn't like it but not really because it's scummy (in fact, I find that scum usually prefer to say nothing than rather than make weird ominous remarks, but making weird ominous remarks just makes you look dumb so I prefer people to not do it at all).

It's also strange that both of the people that Strege found scummy early (Shin+Shinori) were voting him.

Also it bothers me that Strege doesn't really make any effort to follow up on his reads until people harass him about it. For example, if SSG's post didn't satisfy you, why do Prims and BBM need to prod you for you to say so? It just feels lazy. You found Shinori scummy because he wasn't posting reads and then dropped it entirely because Shinori was being unresponsive, you found Shin scummy but when it threatened to turn into an actual lynch you were afraid to put your vote down.

Overall reading through his posts, it reads to me like he isn't actually scumhunting, he's just saying things that sound like scumhunting but isn't following through on anything.

[Paperblade]

woops forgot to finish that first paragraph

should be:

When Shin votes him, I feel like Strege sort of brushed aside Shin's vote (although I don't think Shin's vote had much merit anyway), but I don't really like the way he reacted to it

[Grace]

I'm really good at this, honest

Manix, when you're in the mindset for it, why exactly is my reaction more scummy than frustrated townie?

I did already say it was post tone and that is more the reason than anything I can accurately pinpoint at this time (best I can manage is like, you're trying to overjustify your actions or something like that)

but if I had to pick someone to lynch right now I'd probably lynch Shin because he seems more scummy and lynching someone based on a few posts is a bit of a crapshoot. I didn't vote for Shin before because he already had a bunch of pressure on him and it wouldn't accomplish much.

(bolded mine) So why exactly would it not have achieved much? Every vote is a new amount of pressure and votes are powerful tools.

Still not sold on scum!bbm though.

You'll have to excuse me if I missed stuff (hint: I probably did), but what's your reasoning for this, SB?

Shinori: When you are around; whois scum

this post by BBM irks me a lot but I can't pinpoint exactly what it is that's doing it. the first paragraph doesn't feel like it actually has a point though? like I don't know what rapier's mindset is but presumably he might have found strege more scummy than BBM and hence moved his vote and yet still had suspicion on BBM

I don't know I could be completely wrong here

I need to reread strege right now, I'll get back to you on it (also I would not lynch Prims right now, so that option is out)

[Grace]

this post by BBM irks me a lot but I can't pinpoint exactly what it is that's doing it. the first paragraph doesn't feel like it actually has a point though? like I don't know what rapier's mindset is but presumably he might have found strege more scummy than BBM and hence moved his vote and yet still had suspicion on BBM

I don't know I could be completely wrong here

Also a follow up question: since I'm not seeing the point of the paragraph; BBM what was the reasoning for even bringing it up in the first place? Is rapier scummy because of it or what?

[Grace]

ugh i went through strege.iso and I'm getting a whole bunch of nullreading on him :/ maybe it's because my brain still isn't quite with it but I just can't for the life of me determine whether he's mafia or not

the best I can manage is his voting patterns slightly belie his content but past that I got nothing :/

[Grace]

going through shinori.iso because i can (for reads) and I find this little gem (not related to shinori at all)

Not a fan of Shinori either, upon reread. First off, the "post dumb stuff and say later that it was a reaction test" thing is lame. Secondly, I don't really like his Strege vote. Shinori draws parallels between his own "Prims is doing that one thing" ambiguity and Prims's blank vote even though they aren't the same.

And then one could say you tried to do something similar in order to defend yourself, in trying to compare your early defense of me to Prims' "manix is not mafia", which wasn't a defense of me

then let's add on how you try to play that off, and combined with reactions while doing so and yeah I actually am feeling this a lot more now

##Unvote

##Vote: BBM

back to shinori.iso

[Rapier]

Rapier's voting patterns make me go ;/ He starts with voting me when a few people already are, and as people start unvoting me and voting Strege, he unvotes me and votes him as well. What makes it worse is that just before he switches to Strege, he still devotes a little portion of the post to attacking me, so his opinions of me clearly haven't really improved. So why the switch? Why is Strege worse than me? And since he still has me as scummy, he keeps himself open to switching back later.

Yes, my opinion about you hasn't changed, but I felt like prodding Strege because I don't really like his "I didn't vote my main scumread because he had too much pressure (3 votes) already" excuse. I did something similar when I was scum in an anonymous Mafia, so I could also say my view uses meta... But it doesn't change the fact that it's a scummy move nevertheless. His post #162 bugs me in particular for that reason.

The difference between me taking my vote off of Shinori then and not taking my vote off of SSG now is that with Shinori I saw a potentially more productive place for my vote. At the moment, I'm not sure if there's a better spot for it -- Shin and BBM have plenty of pressure on them, Boron is looking better than he was for me and I can't think of something to dig into for a reaction, and any discussion between Shinori and I is going to be very unproductive until we get this miscommunication settled.

His vote on SSG has also been quite unproductive because she already answered his points. If he's got anything else to say about her, he should just do so or search for another target. Or vote his most scummy reads for once, since we got only 24 hours.

[Shin]

Shin, is this seriously ALL YOU SAW ON MY POST?

Yes, unless there's some sort of deep philosophical meaning hidden in there somewhere, there wasn't much more to your initial post. Plus, you're getting incredibly defensive about that one post, despite the fact you've posted more since then. SB also holds a valid point about that double poke post. Did I strike a nerve? (Doctor's note: That's actually pretty painful and I'd recommend against it)

Manix, that BBM post is a massive overreaction on Rapier's vote. Whilst I can see where's it's coming from, Rapier only really voted BBM because he agreed with Paper and the fact that his defensiveness annoyed him. Still, rather than saying that, BBM tries to shift everything back onto Strege, via his old comparison tactic.

He also then goes on to ask what he could do to please Strege? This is sorta within BBM's playstyle but it's a little dramatic.

I'm not really getting the Prims train, although there's a lot of questioning about people's voting mentality.

[Violet_Rain3]

Sorry for the unexpected absence. I got a little busier than expected yesterday.

Prims- His reaction makes me feel like he currently isn't the right person to vote for at this time, mostly because he is my weakest scum read. It seems like his regular play style is odd so I'm not gonna keep going there.

BBM- I still find your reactions suspicious, but once again, you are not my biggest scum read.

So...

## Unvote

## Vote Strege

Strege- You are my biggest scum read so far. Not because you voted me, but because of the way you voted me.

Since Shinori's not being responsive anyway, I'll ##Unvote (Shinori), ##Vote Super Serious Gal. You mentioned in post 100 that you have a few potentially vote-worthy scumreads. Could you go into detail on who they are and why? I'm not even 100% if you think Prims is scummy based on your vote or if you're just trying to get your question answered (though that might be me overthinking what you said).

Like I stated in post 125, I had already explained my scum reads in a post that was 2 posts above that one, post 98. A few posts after my reply was post 137.

@Boron Try using the multiquote function. It's not terrible, but you have to plan your posts a bit since they appear in the order you queued them. Linking the post in a decent alternative, but worse for people like SSG and I who use email updates to keep up with the thread.

You ironically mentioned me, but there was no mention of my reply. Your next two posts say nothing about me. You only mention your reaction to my reply after Prims and BBM brought it up. Why did you not post your reaction to my reply for the 3 posts after? Why did you only state the reason why your vote is still on me in the 4th post? Why did people have to bring it up before you noticed? It makes you seem lazy and suspicious to me, especially since we have less than 24 hours left in Day 1.

[Tables]

Vote count 1.5 (Updated to post 186)

Strege (5): Witch, BBM, Rapier, Super Serious Gal, Paperblade

Witch (2): Shinori, Cap'n Flint

BBM (2): Manix, Sangyul

Shin (1): Scorri

Kay (1): Liquid Snake

Scorri (1): Kay

Liquid Snake (1): Serious Bananas

Rapier (1): Shin

Super Serious Gal (1): Strege

Not voting (0): None

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Deadline is May 27th, 2:14am GMT

[Grace]

okay there's like sub-12 hours left

strege considering you're the leading wagon, you should probably claim perhaps

also the lack of a possible counterwagon (next largest wagon is 2 votes? yeah no that ain't a counterwagon yet) is just plain weird.

also i'm sleeping now so don't have too much fun without me

[Strege]

Strege- what exactly could I have said that would have made my vote switch look good, in your eyes? After unvoting, I could either still find Prims suspicious, or find him town. The former is what I did, while if I did the latter, you could call me out for a drastic change in opinion. I don't really like that point of your's because of it. I also haven't been mafia in a non-anonymous game for a pretty long time, and my play has probably evolved since then, so tbh I'm not even sure how my play differs from town to mafia at this point.

The suspicious part of your vote switch is that you mention some things that are scummy about Shin but actually change your vote after two other people start pushing him, at which point you pretty casually dismiss you argument against Prims. Your opinion of Prims after unvoting him isn't the issue -- it's the way that opinion is presented and the time at which you change votes.

I read over Prims+Strege

##vote: Strege

When Shin votes him, I feel like Strege sort of brushed aside Shin's vote (although I don't think

I think his focus on Shinori being ambiguous is a little weird. I didn't like it but not really because it's scummy (in fact, I find that scum usually prefer to say nothing than rather than make weird ominous remarks, but making weird ominous remarks just makes you look dumb so I prefer people to not do it at all).

It's also strange that both of the people that Strege found scummy early (Shin+Shinori) were voting him.

Also it bothers me that Strege doesn't really make any effort to follow up on his reads until people harass him about it. For example, if SSG's post didn't satisfy you, why do Prims and BBM need to prod you for you to say so? It just feels lazy. You found Shinori scummy because he wasn't posting reads and then dropped it entirely because Shinori was being unresponsive, you found Shin scummy but when it threatened to turn into an actual lynch you were afraid to put your vote down.

Overall reading through his posts, it reads to me like he isn't actually scumhunting, he's just saying things that sound like scumhunting but isn't following through on anything.

woops forgot to finish that first paragraph

should be:

When Shin votes him, I feel like Strege sort of brushed aside Shin's vote (although I don't think Shin's vote had much merit anyway), but I don't really like the way he reacted to it

Shin had claimed that his vote was just a reaction test by the time I got back, so I didn't have anything to get worked up about it. It was also based on a huge oversimplification on the first place so it was essentially empty.

I don't know what you're referring to with my focus on Shinori. I mentioned him a few times because he disappeared and the only thing I can think you're interpreting as "ominous remarks" is me asking for more content. Could you clarify this at all?

I think you're misreading the thread a bit, since I voted Shinori before he voted me. I also didn't drop the Shinori thing. I thought it was probably some real life stuff getting in the way and said as much in my first post back.

I don't understand when you think the Shin thing "threatened to turn into an actual lynch" or what me voting him at that point would have accomplished. I think Shin was a clear lynch candidate from pretty early on, but I've never seen D1 end early for a lynch and I don't think your vote should always be on the person you find scummiest -- it can serve other purposes as well.

(bolded mine) So why exactly would it not have achieved much? Every vote is a new amount of pressure and votes are powerful tools.

More pressure isn't always useful though. Look at BBM in this thread, who spent so much time addressing the arguments against him that it dug into his other content (or gave him an excuse not to make it, whichever). If it's clear to the person that they're a likely lynch candidate, then I don't see the difference between 3 and 4 or 4 and 5 votes being particularly useful. As long as we're not at the end of the phase, I prefer to use that time making the difference between 0 and 1 or 1 and 2.

Yes, my opinion about you hasn't changed, but I felt like prodding Strege because I don't really like his "I didn't vote my main scumread because he had too much pressure (3 votes) already" excuse. I did something similar when I was scum in an anonymous Mafia, so I could also say my view uses meta... But it doesn't change the fact that it's a scummy move nevertheless. His post #162 bugs me in particular for that reason.

His vote on SSG has also been quite unproductive because she already answered his points. If he's got anything else to say about her, he should just do so or search for another target. Or vote his most scummy reads for once, since we got only 24 hours.

Answered the first bit above. For the second bit, she didn't answer my points; she answered my questions, which didn't add anything and left me with my original scumread. I couldn't add more because there wasn't any more content to go off of. Also, I was looking for other targets -- I just wanted to keep my vote on SSG.

BBM- I still find your reactions suspicious, but once again, you are not my biggest scum read.

So...

## Unvote

## Vote Strege

Strege- You are my biggest scum read so far. Not because you voted me, but because of the way you voted me.

Like I stated in post 125, I had already explained my scum reads in a post that was 2 posts above that one, post 98. A few posts after my reply was post 137.

You ironically mentioned me, but there was no mention of my reply. Your next two posts say nothing about me. You only mention your reaction to my reply after Prims and BBM brought it up. Why did you not post your reaction to my reply for the 3 posts after? Why did you only state the reason why your vote is still on me in the 4th post? Why did people have to bring it up before you noticed? It makes you seem lazy and suspicious to me, especially since we have less than 24 hours left in Day 1.

I noticed your response, and should have mentioned it at least to let you know that, but it didn't bring any new information to the table so I didn't feel like it was necessary at the time. Either way, it didn't change my feelings about the reasons why I voted you. Also, I don't think it's valid to call me "lazy" and also say I had a lot of easy opportunities to mention it.

So, yeah, not a fan of Paperblade's or SSG's votes against me at the moment. Whatever hasn't already been stated is pretty weak, and the "lazy" criticism is really weird. I'm going to ##Unvote, ##Vote: Shin though. Same old scummy stuff, plus ambivalence toward the Prims wagon and jabs against BBM that I think are kind of loosely applicable in post 185. He's said twice now that I've improved since his initial vote but his initial vote egregiously oversimplified my content around the end of RVS that he's never justified.

I know we're supposed to be consolidating but I'm obviously not going to vote myself and I don't like the Prims wagon either -- my read on him still isn't great, but hes been pretty clear about who he thinks is scummy and why and I think blandly asking for consolidation when he's tied for most lynches is really townie.

[Strege]

Seeing as I'll be kind of busy today I should probably claim now. I'm a town jailkeeper.

[Rapier]

Only 15 hours left? Oh well...

Unvote

##Vote: BBM

I feel safer with lynching him rather than Strege. All I really got on him is a scum meta related to my own play in another Mafia. He managed to answer the rest properly and for now I have no objections.

BBM's answers have been plenty and none of them were good to me, as he insisted that he didn't do anything scummy and tried to misdirect attention from him to other players at least thrice. Other reasons have been shown before in my posts and I don't feel like quoting them again.

[Rapier]

derp

Jailkeeper? Fine, I'll give you the chance to prove your role this night.

[Tables]

As a reminder, there needs to be a majority before deadline, or a lynch will not occur. With 15 players, a majority is 8 votes

[BBM]

Jailer could easily be a Hooker fake, so not really sure whether to believe it.

I'm not trying to redirect stuff by pointing out other people who're doing what I'm doing. I'm not saying that you should vote for X because they're doing what I'm doing- I'm saying why are you only calling me out and completely ignoring X doing the exact same thing? I'm being singled out over other people for shitty reasons and it pisses me off. For one last time (and I would rather get lynched than repeat myself here again) I wasn't trying to defend Manix in particular, just saying that I thought he was probably town. If anyone's going to bring up this post, I misworded myself there because I misunderstood what Paperblade was saying.

Strege, out of the things I've been accused of, I don't think that not producing content has been one of them. Elaborate on how I've gotten myself into such a hole that I'm not producing content.

Shin, if "that's all" Rapier's vote was, echoing Paperblade, then that's another problem with Rapier's vote.

Manix, there's a clear difference between a blank vote that is clearly supposed to be a reaction test of some sort and the type of ambiguous statement that Shinori made that didn't really mean anything. Compare that to Prims saying he didn't think you were scum and me saying I didn't think you were scum. How is the latter comparison not a more valid one to make?

[BBM]

Do people want me to claim? I guess I'm the counterwagon if people want to let the Jailer claim go.

[Sunwoo]

I tried to read through Strege's ISO, but I'm too distracted at the moment to focus on it. I'll try to formulate an opinion on him when I finish my workload.

BBM beat me to it, but the only thing that would differentiate between a hooker and a jailkeeper is that the jailkeeper protects against one kill attempt. And there's really no way to PLAN for that, nor should we try to in the first place.

Also, BBM, it's possible that you're being singled out for things that other players are also doing because it's being taken in lieu with other things you've done. I think you asked me earlier about "why single out Strege in calling out Shinori's vagueness when Paper did the same thing?" when the difference is during that point in the game Paper had produced some content while that was Strege's only post. The context of how things were done is also important too.

[Sunwoo]

As for whether you should claim or not, it's up to you.

[BBM]

I'm just going to claim because I'll be gone for a while (though I should be back well before phase end). I'm vanilla.

[Strege]

Strege, out of the things I've been accused of, I don't think that not producing content has been one of them. Elaborate on how I've gotten myself into such a hole that I'm not producing content.

I didn't say you haven't been producing content. You've had plenty of content, but a lot of it has been reactive because we've forced you to react. It's hard to get a sense if someone is being dismissive or oversensitive or whatever when they're being forced into extreme behaviour.

I'm waiting on a couple of answers, but I'd like to add that I'm curious what Prims thinks now that I've tried to address the concerns about me, since his vote came down a while ago.

In my post earlier I apparently missed Manix's post and thought that Prims still had 3 votes. I was following the thread through email notifications so I'm not really sure how that happened.

[BBM]

More pressure isn't always useful though. Look at BBM in this thread, who spent so much time addressing the arguments against him that it dug into his other content (or gave him an excuse not to make it, whichever). If it's clear to the person that they're a likely lynch candidate, then I don't see the difference between 3 and 4 or 4 and 5 votes being particularly useful. As long as we're not at the end of the phase, I prefer to use that time making the difference between 0 and 1 or 1 and 2.

The bolded rather heavily implies that I'm lacking in content, especially the part in parentheses.