Super C9++ - Game over, Town Wins!

[Grace]

and that's the "helpful" in the scum driven manner of looking town by doing certain actions, in case it wasn't clear

[Grace]

now my brain is starting to die and i need food. will do the promised reread when my brain is functioning again

[Prims]

uhhhh i immediately drew the conclusion strege was scum selfhammering too and i'm not mafia. so.

also my thoughts on the rein claim were also literally the exact same as bbm's

i agree about the claim tho

[Sunwoo]

I think BBM mentioned somewhere that Strege tried to make a last minute push on him when it looked like he was going to be lynched. But Strege's last vote before he self-hammered was on Shin (unless I missed a post or something). The way he claimed was a bit odd, I'll agree. I mean, there was pressure on BBM near phase end, that much is true, but I don't think there was a CLEAR counterwagon aside from Strege. Looking at votals at the time, it looked like Prims, Shin, and BBM were all possible counterwagons to Strege. He seemed a bit hasty to claim vanilla.

[Shin]

The problem with Rapier and BBM is that it would make no sense at all if they were both scum. If one flips, the other is probably town, unless they're major chumps. I was really hoping Rapier would come in and try to explain himself, but no.

Also, BBM's shift on blame to anyone who accuses him is still blatantly apparent, Boron seems to be the flavour of the day. He then questions her on following people other than him. I'm also not liking the "I trusted you, Manix, why don't you trust me?", it seems like a plea of desperation.

I'd be pretty content with a BBM lynch, there's also the added benefit of it kinda shedding some light on Rapier. Unless Rapier comes and can't say anything good, I'll be all aboard the BBM express.

##Unvote

##Vote: BBM

SB, why you defend BBM? I admit he gets worked up, but he can do that as scum too :P. Also, so much vote hopping, make up your mind, man!

[BBM]

I claimed because I was one of the leading counterwagons, and also the one with the most suspicion against them from the people not already voting them. Basically everyone who really wanted to lynch Prims, Rapier, or Shin were already voting for them, while IIRC there were a bunch of people on the Strege wagon who thought I was scummy. Also, I didn't want to claim with only a little time left and then just get lynched because people didn't have time to switch to someone else and thought lynching a vanilla was better than lynching a PR.

I don't really see what's wrong with my Boron case. She calls me out for diverting suspicion away from me and then turns my attacks on her posts back towards me. I don't really like her explanation that she moved her vote from me just because she thought she was tunneling. If she'd posted suspicions about other people, that would have solved that problem. It's perfectly possible to vote one person for the entirety of the phase and post suspicions about multiple people. And none of this has to do with the content of her posts attacking me. I'm not just turning back her own stuff and this isn't an OMGUS. I expressed suspicions about Boron on D1 as well, and they were alleviated for a while but I don't really like her recent stuff. I don't see how posting lurker prods solves the problem of her tunneling. She also chose to go after SB for lurking even though Rein was also lurking and she actually had suspicions about him, whereas there was nothing else to the SB vote other than "Not feeling like mafia isn't good enough".

I'm fine with lynching Rapier, but I don't really have anything to add that hasn't been said, and he hasn't posted yet either so.

[BBM]

wrt the Rein fakeclaim- I didn't say that Rein couldn't reaction test as scum. I meant that Rein wouldn't make up a report and then actually let Kay get lynched if he was scum. So either it's a reaction test, meaning you might as well go along with it, or it's legit. And then it turned out to be a reaction test, which is fine, but he made no attempt to actually do anything with the reactions he got, which is bad because the test by itself isn't actual content.

Add that quote Manix had of Strege talking about Boron to my case against her btw. That looks like scum distancing to me. No actual push or commitment to a suspicion against Boron, but enough talking about her so that it doesn't look like they're buddying. And as someone (Prims?) pointed out earlier, Boron never really said much about Strege, a leading wagon, until after he'd been CCed.

[BBM]

I'll probably be around for some of tomorrow, but I highly doubt I'll get internet access on Saturday, and if I do, it'll be very little. So I won't be around to defend myself near phase end. I'll probably just switch my vote to Rapier before I leave if I can't get people to agree with me about Boron by then.

Shin, what happens if/when I flip town? While I think there's a pretty decent chance of Rapier being scum, there's also the possibility we're both town. What exactly are you going to do after that? It honestly looks like you're trying to line up lynches on me and Rapier right now. Additionally, even if I was just pushing blame back onto Boron, which I'm not, saying that I'm pushing it back onto anyone who's attacking me is wrong because I haven't attacked Manix or SSG.

Shinori really needs to actually post something today instead of just making one-line posts that don't say anything.

[Shinori]

I'll probably be around for some of tomorrow, but I highly doubt I'll get internet access on Saturday, and if I do, it'll be very little. So I won't be around to defend myself near phase end. I'll probably just switch my vote to Rapier before I leave if I can't get people to agree with me about Boron by then.

Shin, what happens if/when I flip town? While I think there's a pretty decent chance of Rapier being scum, there's also the possibility we're both town. What exactly are you going to do after that? It honestly looks like you're trying to line up lynches on me and Rapier right now. Additionally, even if I was just pushing blame back onto Boron, which I'm not, saying that I'm pushing it back onto anyone who's attacking me is wrong because I haven't attacked Manix or SSG.

Shinori really needs to actually post something today instead of just making one-line posts that don't say anything.

I did kind of make a post as to why I feel rapier should be lynched after going over his ISO. I admit I haven't commented on much of the other stuff so I'll try to say some of my other thoughts about people.

[Kay]

I don't like the Rapier wagon. Yes, he unvoted Strege. However, it seemed clear to me that it was a pressure vote all along, and taking it back wasn't that unreasonable. It looks bad in retrospect, but the rest of his content is pretty good for Rapier standards. Plus there's the fact that he subbed in and could have gotten away with coasting more on D1, but instead started posting content pretty quickly.

[BBM]

lol my dad got sick so we might cancel our trip

this and this entire post which give completely mixed signals to me as to whether it's scum pushing on scum or scum pushing on town

like looking at it in more detail confirms that looking into this is not going to help my read, so that's why i pushed a different avenue

not at all sure what to think of shin/strege interactions either, gut says shin is town over scum though

I'd like to respond to this post, which is apparently Manix's proof that he's looked at the interactions between me and Strege. And yeah, you did. But just because you looked at them doesn't mean you didn't handwave them. Why exactly are those posts giving you mixed signals? What reads scum/scum and what reads scum/town? You make no attempt to actually say what looks like scumbuddy interactions, so I can't defend myself against it at all. And then you say it's not going to help your read, so you're pushing a different avenue. As in, you can't get anything from it, so you're not looking at them anymore. That is in fact handwaving.

[BBM]

Also, I'm a bit suspicious of SSG, because of how quickly she jumped off the wagon on me at the first sign of questioning about it, and had half a mind to shoot BBM.

You know that stating an irrelevant townread is scummy because townreads don't usually do anything except tell the mafia who to shoot. RVS, well, it doesn't mean as much, but it's still useless and looks like an easy attempt to look active. You're not a noob, you don't need to be told this. I don't like how you kept harping on about it not being scummy.

And how long were you going to wait before you revealed that, eh?

Kay, the bolded is quite literally the only reasoning you've offered as to why your vote is on me. And I've responded to it. Yes, the townread didn't ahve much relevance. But I have a bunch of content, so saying "it's an easy attempt to look active" completely misrepresents my entire play this game. I've been active, and I've had content.

And as for the SSG bit, do you really think she's scum after CCing Strege?

[Sunwoo]

And as for the SSG bit, do you really think she's scum after CCing Strege?

See here, BBM. I find it interesting that you left out the post where Kay realizes that SSG counterclaimed Strege and pull up only the post where she's suspicious of SSG.

As for what's "wrong" with your case on me ... well, first of all you're calling me out on doing things that other people had called you out for doing. You're voting me because you don't like my unvote and you don't agree with the reasoning I gave for it, but just because you disagree with said reasoning does not automatically mean it's scummy or has scum intent. Just because it's "perfectly possible to vote one person for the entirety of the phase and post suspicions about other people," doesn't mean that I'm scummy for not doing so.

As for not posting suspicions about other people, this is the post where I unvoted you and voted SB. Are you seriously going to tell me that I gave no suspicions, no thoughts on other people there? I admit that they're not very strong reads, but you're making it sound as if I went "I'm tunneling BBM, gonna step back and move my vote to SB. What are your thoughts, SB?" when I tried to put in as much of my thoughts on players as was coherent at the time that I made that post.

I picked SB over Strider because Strider had done more than SB at that point in the game, and I was less null on him.

Also, you still have not answered me on this: WHERE AM I TURNING YOUR ATTACK ON MY POSTS BACK TOWARDS YOU? I would like quoted examples, if you please?

[BBM]

I missed that other post of Kay's. It wasn't supposed to be an attack anyways; I believe her claim, as I said before.

And are you implying that it's impossible to scum hunt while pressure voting someone else? It's not like I can't move my vote if I see something suspicious, or focus on other people while having a vote somewhere else. You really do seem to be trying to make other people look bad to deflect the suspicion off you.

It's stuff like that. I was attacking you and you turned it back on me even though my attack had nothing to do with myself.

SSG- I'm not trying to get anyone to do anything by saying I'm disappointed about Manix scumreading me. That's me being disappointed with my play. I don't think the case against me is good, but that doesn't mean I couldn't have played better this game. There's also a difference between analyzing and overanalyzing. Manix is making mountains out of molehills.

[Sunwoo]

Point out every instance where I've done something like that. If I've been doing that in a significant number of my posts, then you may have a point. If it's only in a small number of my posts and not consistently throughout my play, then you're exaggerating it.

Also, I believe other players have made accusations of you doing the same thing you're accusing me of, even back as early as D1. Do you have anything to say to that?

[BBM]

It doesn't have to be in a lot of your posts. The fact that it's there at all when it's probably the main part of your's and everyone's cases against me is what's scummy, because it's hypocritical. It's also only a minor point. As for what's scummy about you unvoting me to pursue lurker prods is that it's empty activity. Your points against Scorri and SB are mostly them being inactive. There's a bit more on Blitz, but him focusing mostly on Prims can't really be held against him considering that was more or less RVS, or just after it. The bit about Rein was decent, but you chose not to pursue that simply because Rein had done more than him. Not only is that lame, I'd argue it's also untrue, because the only thing I can remember Rein doing all game is the reaction test, except as you point out, he never actually went anywhere with it. I'll wait until one of you flip to make a final judgement about that, but my hunch is that they're scumbuddy interactions.

As for me doing the deflection thing, I still maintain, as I said on D1, that my intent with the comparisons was not to try to deflect suspicion onto the other person, but just to show logical fallacies in pursuing me over other people doing the same thing as me.

[Blitz]

I should really clear my points cause {me being the idiot I am finally realized} my points were hard to understand

firstly, before getting to the Rein case, I think BBM is not mafia Meta wise and the interaction with Strege, meta having the main impact btw. However, I really do not like his pleading this during this phase which has been mentioned by quite a few others, so it makes me think he could be an SK, but this sounds way too farfetched and would still like SG to out her target of the previous night.

at Manix, the BBM vs Strege thing was what I was talking about

Boron looks like she is actively scum hunting, so I will drop my case on her death tunneling BBM only

now the Rein case,

Prims asked what I thought about the Rein fake claiming thing, what I meant to say is that, by fake claiming he is giving the fake impression that he is actually doing something where as he is actually not. Most people do not like a Rein inactivity case over Domudomu case because they think Rein has contributed and my Rein case is exactly the fact that Rein is just getting away with not contributing by making that silly claim at the start of the day. You could say it is another form of active lurking.

At SB, I hope that answers the questions you asked and also, if you want to complain about me asking questions and not answering, it is because I was not askied questions, therefore ask whatever you want to know.

also, if I missed something, please address it cause I am very good at missing things.

[Sunwoo]

It doesn't have to be in a lot of your posts. The fact that it's there at all when it's probably the main part of your's and everyone's cases against me is what's scummy, because it's hypocritical. It's also only a minor point.

Actually, it is kind of relevant on whether the sentiment is in a lot of my posts or not. Using it once, maybe twice, isn't as hypocritical as doing it all the time and calling you scummy over the same thing. Which, apparently by your own admission, I haven't even done that much. If that is literally the only example you can find, then you're exaggerating and blowing up a minor point. I mean, is it hypocritical? Maybe, but when it is present in only ONE of my posts then it's less hypocritical than you are making it out to be.

As for what's scummy about you unvoting me to pursue lurker prods is that it's empty activity. Your points against Scorri and SB are mostly them being inactive. There's a bit more on Blitz, but him focusing mostly on Prims can't really be held against him considering that was more or less RVS, or just after it. The bit about Rein was decent, but you chose not to pursue that simply because Rein had done more than him. Not only is that lame, I'd argue it's also untrue, because the only thing I can remember Rein doing all game is the reaction test, except as you point out, he never actually went anywhere with it. I'll wait until one of you flip to make a final judgement about that, but my hunch is that they're scumbuddy interactions.

You are seriously making too big of a deal over this "unvoting me to prod lurkers" thing. I explained my reasons for unvoting, and you don't have to agree with them, but is this literally your only reason for suspecting me? Is it your BIGGEST reason for suspecting me, on top of anything else I may have done?

I'm soooo sorry that apparently I'm lame. Just because Strider wasn't memorable for you, doesn't mean that he wasn't memorable for me. And by that logic what has SB done that is memorable up to the point I had voted him? I don't remember him doing anything at all. I am still waiting for Strider to get back and give us his reads, and I think his "reaction test" was not useful. But it's still heck of a lot more than I remember SB doing. So I ask you: WHAT HAD SB DONE THAT WAS SO MEMORABLE BEFORE I VOTED HIM?

As for me doing the deflection thing, I still maintain, as I said on D1, that my intent with the comparisons was not to try to deflect suspicion onto the other person, but just to show logical fallacies in pursuing me over other people doing the same thing as me.

And I disagree with that because context is the key. For example, you compare your interactions with Strege and Shin's interactions with Strege. You say that your interactions with Strege look less like a bus than Shin's. But that's still a jab towards Shin, painting his interactions as scummier than yours. I don't see how this isn't trying to push suspicion onto him by comparing him to yourself.

Speaking of Shin, after rereading Strege's interactions on D1, I feel a lot better about him. If I'm not remembering wrong, Strege pursued him and his vote before he hammered himself was on Shin.

[Sunwoo]

Wow, I knew I forgot something.

##Unvote

##Vote: BBM

If you're not scum I'm going to flip tables because you are making it VERY hard for me to believe you are town right now.

[BBM]

Wow, I knew I forgot something.

##Unvote

##Vote: BBM

If you're not scum I'm going to flip tables because you are making it VERY hard for me to believe you are town right now.

i dont think the host would like getting flipped

[BBM]

Honestly though, posts like "If you're not scum I'm going to rage" are just dumb, because after I flip town, you're not actually going to berate yourself for completely ignoring all the Strege interactions in favour of something that I'm not even doing. I've responded to that particular example about comparing my interactions with Strege to Shin's interactions with Strege so many times it's not even funny. If you're town, you'll be a bit frustrated after my flip and blame me for playing badly.

I honestly don't even know what I'm supposed to defend against right now. I've responded to me "deflecting suspicion" several times. Does your case against me actually have anything else? Everything I do or say seems to end up going back to that.

[BBM]

##Unvote, ##Vote: Rapier

Looks like the trip is canceled, but I might as well vote here anyways. Absolutely nobody seems to agree with me about Boron and not me over me I guess.

[BBM]

Not sure if we're allowed to do these but I compiled them because I wanted to know how far from getting hammered I was. Rein and Rapier will probably both vote me so I guess the only way there's a chance of me not getting lynched is if they don't come back? lol

Votals

Rapier (3): Witch, Shinori, BBM
BBM (5): Kay, Manix, SSG, Shin, Boron (L - 2)
Cap'n Flint (1): SB

SB (1): Scorri

Liquid Snake (1): Cap'n Flint

Not voting (2): Rapier, Liquid Snake

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is June 1st, 10:28pm GMT

I at least want Kay to come back and give more reasoning for a vote on me. While she's probably town, her reasoning is among the worst and only really looks at one of my first posts on D1? SSG's vote against me is also even weaker than the rest, but again she's probably town.

[charlie_]

and that's the "helpful" in the scum driven manner of looking town by doing certain actions, in case it wasn't clear

Isn't claiming too early when you're not sure you'll be around for phase end better than not claiming at all? If you don't think you'll be around claiming a bit early isn't a bad idea.

At SB, I hope that answers the questions you asked and also, if you want to complain about me asking questions and not answering, it is because I was not askied questions, therefore ask whatever you want to know.

My issue wasn't you not answering questions. It was that most of your last content post provided very little content, and mostly a lot of noise in it. Also before that you were asking a lot of questions, while not really contributing anything yourself. Do you have any other scumreads, besides Rein?

Wow, I knew I forgot something.

##Unvote

##Vote: BBM

If you're not scum I'm going to flip tables because you are making it VERY hard for me to believe you are town right now.

Boron, take a step back and calm down.

##Unvote

##Vote: Rapier

Don't think BBM is scum, and I haven't been pleased with Rapier anyway.

[BBM]

(just going on what you're saying, will reread context later) well just exactly that, at that point there wasn't support for a wagon on him so he could get away with pushing on Strege. presumably it didn't go great because the wagon DID form but it still made him look better on the flip, so it wasn't a waste

also i need to look at the timestamps around claims when i get the chance

Didn't respond to this, but this is an attempt to fit the interactions between me and Strege into Manix's already set-in-stone notion that I'm scum. Like, if you looked at me attacking Strege completely in a vacuum, away from anything else I did, I think most people would say it looks good for me. Manix even admits it makes me look better upon Strege's flip if I were scum- presumably this would extend to making me look better when I'm town as well. And even if you could explain away my vote against Strege as me pushing him when it didn't seem like it would go anywhere, what about me being the first one to say it could be a Hooker fake, being the one to bring up the info about whether or not two Jailkeepers were possible, etc? Yes, I'm aware that anyone could have said that stuff/asked Tables about it, but I still didn't really have to bring it up if I were scum.