RTU discussion thread

[eclipse]

Such as?

Not to mention how those units missed out on their support rank development but thats for another time because freaking college >_>

Virion, for one. It's not like he's gonna go on a major murder spree with his stats.

[Tamanoir]

Oh, fun thing about Lissa. according to the main site, she's one of the only character with a negative absolute base stat (-2 Res)

The other being Virion and his -1Speed Base....

[PKL]

I've noticed a lot of people complaining about cherche's spd. Explain how 12 spd base, 50 growth, +4 promo gain, the promo turns her spd growth to 55, spd tonics and spd pairups make for meh speed. I'd like to hear it, especially for a mode where spd tresholds arent high until Chapter 21 swordmasters. She comes before the Naga Tear and when the children paralogues start popping up too.

[-Cynthia-]

I've noticed a lot of people complaining about cherche's spd. Explain how 12 spd base, 50 growth, +4 promo gain, the promo turns her spd growth to 55, spd tonics and spd pairups make for meh speed. I'd like to hear it, especially for a mode where spd tresholds arent high until Chapter 21 swordmasters. She comes before the Naga Tear and when the children paralogues start popping up too.

I agree that her speed seems quite fixable overall (on Hard Mode anyway). She'd be better with more base Spd, but it doesn't seem to be a huge drawback.

[The Fush]

I've noticed a lot of people complaining about cherche's spd. Explain how 12 spd base, 50 growth, +4 promo gain, the promo turns her spd growth to 55, spd tonics and spd pairups make for meh speed. I'd like to hear it, especially for a mode where spd tresholds arent high until Chapter 21 swordmasters. She comes before the Naga Tear and when the children paralogues start popping up too.

I think it's probably me being unlucky because in all of my playthroughs she grows speed like once every 5 levels

[Da Bear]

Because giving her the Naga's Tear is a great idea <_<

I don't like her speed but it's easily fixable.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

In my playlog she misses doubling on Assassin

And.... thats it

[General Horace]

naga's tear is great on a unit like cherche and henry because it helps them double reliabley faster and improves on their already good durability

its better used on someone like that then some kid that doesn't really need it in the first place anyway

[Da Bear]

naga's tear is great on a unit like cherche and henry because it helps them double reliabley faster and improves on their already good durability

its better used on someone like that then some kid that doesn't really need it in the first place anyway

I've always preferred giving it to a kid and giving Cherche a good support while Henry gets a speedwing. She doesn't need the Naga's Tear to double in my experience (and according to growths) if I give her a good pair up so I don't find giving it to her to be a good idea.

[Chiki]

Most children aren't worth training because they come late and underleveled. Cherche and Henry are the two semi-Ests of the game (they come relatively late and underleveled). Henry has crappy move; Cherche is the best candidate in the entire game for it apart from maybe Morgan or Lucina. Cherche might be better because she comes earlier, has lower bases, has more occasions to use it, and has higher move than both without needing a Second Seal.

[General Horace]

henry has 5 move for like 2 chapters then he's got 8 like the rest of the team

[Chiki]

Cherche has Deliverer.

[General Horace]

im not saying henry is better, i'm just saying he might as well have 8 move

he gives +1 move too, just like cherche pre deliverer

[Inference]

Pity Anna averaged so low. The woman is a monster.

Cherche, I will getting around to using, I promise. But late and underleveled without amazing base stats is definitely a disincentive.

[Folt]

Henry is also blessed with the use of tomes: a consistent 1-2 range weapon type + the majority of the enemies have lol Resistance. Along with the Dark Knight, ability to pair up with a supportable Dark Flier, and access to Nosferatu during his training phase, it helps him keep up with the rest of your army.

[eclipse]

I've noticed a lot of people complaining about cherche's spd. Explain how 12 spd base, 50 growth, +4 promo gain, the promo turns her spd growth to 55, spd tonics and spd pairups make for meh speed. I'd like to hear it, especially for a mode where spd tresholds arent high until Chapter 21 swordmasters. She comes before the Naga Tear and when the children paralogues start popping up too.

1. I complained about Gerome's base Speed all the way back in Chapter 8. Cherche has all of one more Speed on him, and it's not like the enemies got worse in the interim.

2. I always complain about 50% Speed growth, because it has the highest deviation of them all (and in a game where Speed is really helpful, that deviation isn't cool).

3. First, I have to be arsed to promote her, since I've usually got some semblance of an army by the time she joins. Second, 55% isn't what I call a huge gain.

4. Why should I have to use a tonic to fix her Speed? I don't think reliance on tonics makes a good unit. Pair-ups work, as it gives the guy she's paired with more move, among other things.

Yes, she can absorb physical damage (I think it's something like a 4HKO in her starting chapter, unless you put her in bow range/promoted unit range; someone correct me if I'm wrong). I consider Speed to be pretty important in this game, and Cherche's relative lack of it, along with her join time (most of my regulars will have supports under their belt) means that she's getting a less-than-stellar rating from me.

[Chiki]

Tonics are so cheap you can take them for granted for any unit.

[PKL]

1. I complained about Gerome's base Speed all the way back in Chapter 8. Cherche has all of one more Speed on him, and it's not like the enemies got worse in the interim.

2. I always complain about 50% Speed growth, because it has the highest deviation of them all (and in a game where Speed is really helpful, that deviation isn't cool).

3. First, I have to be arsed to promote her, since I've usually got some semblance of an army by the time she joins. Second, 55% isn't what I call a huge gain.

4. Why should I have to use a tonic to fix her Speed? I don't think reliance on tonics makes a good unit. Pair-ups work, as it gives the guy she's paired with more move, among other things.

Yes, she can absorb physical damage (I think it's something like a 4HKO in her starting chapter, unless you put her in bow range/promoted unit range; someone correct me if I'm wrong). I consider Speed to be pretty important in this game, and Cherche's relative lack of it, along with her join time (most of my regulars will have supports under their belt) means that she's getting a less-than-stellar rating from me.

1. You mean Gregor right? Well, Gregor is another case entirely. His only use is to be a support bot because hes mediocre and lacks 1-2 range (which makes his exp gain even worse).

2. You overvalue speed in this game's HM. Fastest enemies in Chapter 17 have 23 AS. Base Cherche + Griffon + pair up escapes getting doubled. Obviously, she will have leveled a lot by then, so her speed wont ever be an issue unless you get screwed, But any character underperforms when screwed. Is Avatar all of a sudden terrible objectively because mine dont proc magic ever? No right?

3. She comes ready to promote, the fact that she can get levels before it, easily makes it even better. You were complaining that 50 growth has too much deviation, but 55 is too little improvement? It gets rid of the deviation...

4. Because Tonics are super cheap and you get like 10000000000000000000000000000000G total in this game? Why limit a unit's potential because you don't want to use a simple powerup that significantly improves her performance? It's like saying why should I use a speedwing on Palla? I don't think reliance on Speedwings makes a good unit. The cost of a Wing is a lot higher than a Spd Tonic and yet Palla is the best character in Heroes of Light and Shadow.

5. Shes only 4HKO'd by the strongest enemies. The other enemies are 6HKO'ing at best iirc. That's far from bad durability.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Peekayell

[Redwall]

Getting Cherche levels in her join chapter is relatively painless (assuming the tier list playstyle) if Lon'qu has a Spd Tonic in his inventory. After using the Tonic during the player phase (not a big deal since it's an EP-heavy chapter), she ORKOs Cavaliers and Knights with the Hammer.

I don't see a need to penalize Cherche for needing a Spd Tonic if feeding her that Tonic has no opportunity cost, which it won't in a brisk playthrough since money will be abundant.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Redwall

[eclipse]

1. You mean Gregor right? Well, Gregor is another case entirely. His only use is to be a support bot because hes mediocre and lacks 1-2 range (which makes his exp gain even worse).

2. You overvalue speed in this game's HM. Fastest enemies in Chapter 17 have 23 AS. Base Cherche + Griffon + pair up escapes getting doubled. Obviously, she will have leveled a lot by then, so her speed wont ever be an issue unless you get screwed, But any character underperforms when screwed. Is Avatar all of a sudden terrible objectively because mine dont proc magic ever? No right?

3. She comes ready to promote, the fact that she can get levels before it, easily makes it even better. You were complaining that 50 growth has too much deviation, but 55 is too little improvement? It gets rid of the deviation...

4. Because Tonics are super cheap and you get like 10000000000000000000000000000000G total in this game? Why limit a unit's potential because you don't want to use a simple powerup that significantly improves her performance? It's like saying why should I use a speedwing on Palla? I don't think reliance on Speedwings makes a good unit. The cost of a Wing is a lot higher than a Spd Tonic and yet Palla is the best character in Heroes of Light and Shadow.

5. Shes only 4HKO'd by the strongest enemies. The other enemies are 6HKO'ing at best iirc. That's far from bad durability.

1. If I'm giving Gregor grief about his Speed when he joins, it would be extremely hypocritical for me to ignore the fact that Cherche has the exact same problem.

2. I'd need to play through the game again, but I remember some of the promoted enemies in Chapters 12-14 being a royal pain in the rear Speed-wise, and that's with a speedier team. The Chapter 16 Heroes are also a thing.

3. 55% makes it slightly better, but not by enough for me to stop complaining about it. I've ripped quite a few people with a similar growth pattern; why did you wait until Cherche to say something?

4. You answered why YOU think it's worth it, but that doesn't address why I don't think it's worth it. Just about everyone else got their rating without relying on Tonics. If she needs one to perform on par with everyone else I've rated so far, then she's getting a lower score in response.

5. I think some enemy stats should clear this up (anyone wanna volunteer them?). I recall her not dodging and dying quite a few times on her starting chapter, and it was less than six hits.

I don't assume tier list play style. That was NOT specified when the RTU came out, and I feel it would restrict the ratings unnecessarily.

I'm trying to be consistent with my ratings, sans bias point. If it's suddenly a problem NOW, then I suspect unit favoritism over a legitimate grievance on my logic behind rating units, because some of these issues should've been brought up earlier, if they're such a problem.

[General Horace]

The chapter 12 cavaliers have 23-24 attack with steel swords, 24-25 attack with lances, and the armours have 26-27 attack with steel lances, and 20-21 with javelins (including the weapon rank bonuses), and if I'm right here, don't gain any more due to wta since you need B rank for that.

Cherche has 31hp/16 def, so its 4-5HKO'd by cavs (depending on statrolls and weapon) and armours actually have a shot at 3hko'ing her, but it's likely a 4hko. Javelins don't really matter.

The paladins have like 31-32 attack, so its a boarderline 2hko or a very sad Cherche with 1HP. They have 16-17 speed, but it's safe to assume she's getting at least one speed from pairup to avoid getting doubled.

Thats all withough pairup mind you.

I should really finish getting the enemy stats...

Edited June 14, 2013 by General Horace

[Constable Reggie]

Without any extra def boosts, Cherche is 4hkoed by cavaliers and knights, and with no extra speed boosts, is orkoed by the bow knights and silver paladins. A speed pair up lets her double cavaliers, while a def one ups her survivability.

edit: ninjad

Edited June 14, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Sunwoo]

3. 55% makes it slightly better, but not by enough for me to stop complaining about it. I've ripped quite a few people with a similar growth pattern; why did you wait until Cherche to say something?

I'm trying to be consistent with my ratings, sans bias point. If it's suddenly a problem NOW, then I suspect unit favoritism over a legitimate grievance on my logic behind rating units, because some of these issues should've been brought up earlier, if they're such a problem.

It's because PKL is biased and only complains when people rate character he likes "low".

[ZemZem]

Yeah PKL, Nowi has a 50% SPD growth. Defend her!

[PKL]

It's not because of bias. Nowai has 5 spd base and 50 growth and no promo gain on it. Gregor also deserves it because he has no viable way of ORKO'ing enemies and thus get exp. Cherche is in another league, dont even compare.