RTU discussion thread

[PKL]

Edited OP with links up to Kellam. Thanks for the help, JSND.

[eclipse]

Here's a little gift from the mafia forum:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&cType=topic&cId=40201&search_author=Randa

As long as Randa doesn't change his screen name, it'll work. By using this link, you'll see every post Randa has made. Individual post links are on the upper right corner (mouse over the number). If you want to make a compilation of where everyone's rating started, this should help!

Edited June 9, 2013 by eclipse

[The Fush]

Regarding Cordelia vs Sumia: I actually hate Cordelia as a character. I just find her to be better than Sumia as a unit.

Sumia has more availibility, slightly better magic as a dark flier, and good early game mobility with all the trees in the first paralogues. That's all she has over Cordelia.

Cordelia, on the other hand, has more supports, better class lines, better overall growths (though slightly low starting stats), deals more damage when paired up, and is just all-roundedly better than Sumia just because of the very nice array of skills she has access to. Sumia at best can scrape Galeforce, Pavise, Luna and Renewal, while Cordelia gets Galeforce, Armsthrift, Sol, Vengeance, Breaker Skills that cover her weaknesses (do NOT give me the Hawkeye argument), and Lifetaker. She can also works just as well being Hero as a Dark Flier, while the pegaline is Sumia's best hope for a class that suits her, and even then her stats can end up subpar. For those arguing that pair-ups fix her problems, Cordelia can do the same thing, and Cordelia can also do it with more people.

Overall, I've just found Cordelia to be far more useful than Sumia in all of my playthroughs.

Edited June 9, 2013 by The Fush

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

It depends on how you judge them

For example, Sumia is undeniably better in Apotheosis:

1. Luna is the best proc in Apotheosis, while Sol is.... pretty useless there

2. Cordy's defensive stats(+1 IIRC) does not make any difference unless she goes Hero or something

3. Dual Guard+ is REALLY amazing

Overall, when you ask me, which of the two is better for Apotheosis(and DLC's in general), Sumia win, by far.

Thats for the irrelevant post game, now onto main game

Stats wise, this one is subjective, since Sumia has stats leads over Cordy. As I said in my own review, in Awakening, alvailability lead can pretty much be re-worded into "+2 STR, +2 DEF, 60% chance to ORKO stuff, + 15% EVA". Of course, Cordy can catch up albeit it is over the span of 4 - 6 chapters

As for Pair Up, Cordy's broader pair up really is not as much of an advantage once you look at the pools.

Sumia has Chrom, Frederick, Gaius, Henry, Sully

Right off the bat, Sumia has acces towards the Lord who has insta S Rank with her, and can reclass Cavs, Frederick which is basically a jackpot, Gaius which gives solid bonus, and Henry who joins so late that it does not worth a mention.

Sully is an outlander, but she is rather fine if you want to use her as an temporary pair up bot.

Using the exact same criteria I used to judge Sumia, Cordy's best options are like.... Stahl, Vaike, Kellam, Gregor.

Amongst these, Stahl can build up with Kellam, and is definitely the one who.... leads the competition becase he has discipline.

Vaike is comparable to Stahl, except replace Kellam with Lon'qu and take off Stahl's mounts and Discipline

Kellam is Vaike, but worse because of having both lack of discipline and 4 mov

Gregor..... well even outside of his mediocre pair up bonus, he is a mediocre character in general. Also no discipline and E Rank.

All four of them either lacks Hammer, stuck with E Axe, or need to build up their rank first. Im not entirely sure about this, becase I have never used Vaike seriously though.

Basically, in the way I see it, I CAN see Cordy having statistical advantages after she catches up over the course of 6 chapters, however, the "oh she can support with anyone".... im not seeing how its an advantage

Edited June 9, 2013 by JSND

[The Fush]

Stats wise, this one is subjective, since Sumia has stats leads over Cordy. As I said in my own review, in Awakening, alvailability lead can pretty much be re-worded into "+2 STR, +2 DEF, 60% chance to ORKO stuff, + 15% EVA". Of course, Cordy can catch up albeit it is over the span of 4 - 6 chapters

As for Pair Up, Cordy's broader pair up really is not as much of an advantage once you look at the pools.

Sumia has Chrom, Frederick, Gaius, Henry, Sully

Right off the bat, Sumia has acces towards the Lord who has insta S Rank with her, and can reclass Cavs, Frederick which is basically a jackpot, Gaius which gives solid bonus, and Henry who joins so late that it does not worth a mention.

Sully is an outlander, but she is rather fine if you want to use her as an temporary pair up bot.

Using the exact same criteria I used to judge Sumia, Cordy's best options are like.... Stahl, Vaike, Kellam, Gregor.

Amongst these, Stahl can build up with Kellam, and is definitely the one who.... leads the competition becase he has discipline.

Vaike is comparable to Stahl, except replace Kellam with Lon'qu and take off Stahl's mounts and Discipline

Kellam is Vaike, but worse because of having both lack of discipline and 4 mov

Gregor..... well even outside of his mediocre pair up bonus, he is a mediocre character in general. Also no discipline and E Rank.

All four of them either lacks Hammer, stuck with E Axe, or need to build up their rank first. Im not entirely sure about this, becase I have never used Vaike seriously though.

Basically, in the way I see it, I CAN see Cordy having statistical advantages after she catches up over the course of 6 chapters, however, the "oh she can support with anyone".... im not seeing how its an advantage

The problem with Sumia having less support options is that she's not the only unit who uses them. There are plenty others who have supports with those characters and will desire them.

Also, I seem to notice you're rating all of Cordelia's partners based off Axe ratings and Discipline. Why is that so important? It's not as if there's so many axe users when Cordelia joins that she NEEDS someone who has a weapon to help her out in that regard. Cordelia can also support with Panne and Donnel, which is very nice if you have her as a wyvern rider, or don't care about passing pegaknight to another child, and as for Discipline, I understand it's usefulness, but it's not the most desired skill in the game.

Also, regarding flaws with the ones you've listed, Vaike and Kellam give good bonuses that makes up for what Cordelia lacks in, like Sumia's Frederick/Chrom, and it also helps Kellam move to places faster. Keep in mind that with these options, it should also be kept in mind how Cordelia is helping her pairmate. Also, if you're so worried aobut axes, Gregor and Stahl can use swords to stop axe enemies from mauling Cordy anyway (although Gregor isn't really her best option).

Also, do you have any other arguments to make about why Sumia is better other than Pair Ups and Availibility?

Edited June 9, 2013 by The Fush

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Axes are from my exp their lifeline during Valm Arc, mainly because of Hammer. Before you et the misconception, Axe + Discipline become the.... uhhh main arguments for my rating because of fast hammer access and thats it.

I admit I forgot about Panne. Thats one thing that I need to test, although normally I would put Panne elsewhere because Cordy are not getting her help most of the time(notable during the time where I want Panne to Deliverer Bot the way out of the game)

Vaike and Stahl is, again the one that I find closest to Freddy(either have Hammer, or close to it) so lets skip this for now

Gregor sucked as a Pair Upper because +1 STR without reclassing(and Second Seals during the time period is extremely limited) not to mention joining right during the flier bias, which make training him..... harder. If you insta promote him, he has mediocre stats, and his pair up bonus and attack is rather weak. OTOH he still have Armorslayer, so.... thats a plus

Kellam is stuck with relatively terrible base and 4 mov. Past the promotion time, Kellam is stuck with E Axes, so he can't use Hammer quickly

Also, Alvailability is pretty much the only common arguments for Sumia and IMHO a massive one thanks to it mssively affecting her battle performance, esp with Galeforce taken into account. if I can add in my own personal experience, I will add the fact that Sumia has a better child(albeit, to maximize her children, you still need to use Cordy), and she can reasonably wield Magic, but I guess I shouldn't

Edited June 9, 2013 by JSND

[Folt]

Looking over A Support Sumia vs. A Support Cordelia in case of pairing up with Henry (if you train him), and both Henry and his pair-up partner being Lv. 20 promoted (Henry to Dark Flier, Sumia or Cordelia to Dark Flier), on average: Henry is guaranteed +2 Strength, +6 Magic, +3 Skill, +8 Speed, and +6 Res at the end. Sumia will give him +3 Luck and +1 Defense, and Cordelia gives him one less Luck and one more Defense. Sumia will reach the important stats (Magic, Speed, and Resistance) faster than Cordelia though.

Regarding Libra, looking up his average stats in comparison to Anna made me realize why most people prefer Anna over him, even with his better staff rank. He has no real notable advantages except Res, and Anna has 9-point Speed advantage over him and is initially his better regarding Magic (important for staffbots): if both get to Lv. 20 in their respective classes, Libra's Magic is one point less than Anna's on average, in spite of being a magic unit (Anna will have a 10-point lead in Skill and a 16 point lead in luck too).

The biggest advantage Libra has over his competitor is the fact that he can support with more units than her.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

The problem with pairing Sumia and Henry in general is the fact that its kinda inefficient outside of if you really want to use Henry

IMO if you want a magic spamming Sumia, Chrom/Fred's pair up does fine, and maybe better because they can help Sumia against Troll Valks >_>

Edited June 9, 2013 by JSND

[Folt]

Not as inefficient as you think, but I'll get to that later when it's Henry's turn.

[The Fush]

Axes are from my exp their lifeline during Valm Arc, mainly because of Hammer. Before you et the misconception, Axe + Discipline become the.... uhhh main arguments for my rating because of fast hammer access and thats it.

I admit I forgot about Panne. Thats one thing that I need to test, although normally I would put Panne elsewhere because Cordy are not getting her help most of the time(notable during the time where I want Panne to Deliverer Bot the way out of the game)

Vaike and Stahl is, again the one that I find closest to Freddy(either have Hammer, or close to it) so lets skip this for now

Gregor sucked as a Pair Upper because +1 STR without reclassing(and Second Seals during the time period is extremely limited) not to mention joining right during the flier bias, which make training him..... harder. If you insta promote him, he has mediocre stats, and his pair up bonus and attack is rather weak. OTOH he still have Armorslayer, so.... thats a plus

Kellam is stuck with relatively terrible base and 4 mov. Past the promotion time, Kellam is stuck with E Axes, so he can't use Hammer quickly

Also, Alvailability is pretty much the only common arguments for Sumia and IMHO a massive one thanks to it mssively affecting her battle performance, esp with Galeforce taken into account. if I can add in my own personal experience, I will add the fact that Sumia has a better child(albeit, to maximize her children, you still need to use Cordy), and she can reasonably wield Magic, but I guess I shouldn't

First of all, Hammers aren't required for the Valm arc. You can already double and magic generals as it is, and more of their army is based on cavalry anyway (beast killer huehuehue), so your whole argument about that means squat, because you can't find many hammers that early anyway and the Valm arc is where your main units will start turning into killing machines after 5 chapters or so. This, in turn, also makes discipline redundant (although it is a good skill anyway). Not to mention, the Armourslayer exists aswell, as you mentioned with Gregor. Hell, enemy generals as a whole aren't that scary because their hit rate is pretty low considering their bulk, and you'll never face one with high res or speed.

Also, you completely ignored what I just said about Kellam. Hammers don't matter jack squat, and pairing him with Cordelia is helping him move to areas faster because Cordelia's bringing him there, making your argument about 4 movement completely unnessecary unless you care about saving individual turns by not moving as Kellam after killing an enemy unit.

Availibility, by the way, has absolutely nothing to do with Galeforce, because when Cordelia joins Sumia will only be a few levels ahead, unless you promote her early (a silly idea considering her subpar strength growth).

Also yeah Gregor sucks in coupling

By the way, Severa is as good a child as Cynthia is, because she still has guarenteed access to Galeforce, owns the mercenary class while Cynthia never can, and has more class options due to her range of fathers. Granted, Cynthia starts in pegaknight class, and she can still acquire a good array of skills, so I'm just making a small point here.

Edited June 9, 2013 by The Fush

[eclipse]

What about other options on Cordelia? If Sumia gets Gaius, for example, that frees up Frederick for Cordelia.

[Da Bear]

What about other options on Cordelia? If Sumia gets Gaius, for example, that frees up Frederick for Cordelia.

This is actually really good for Gaius (Sumia is pretty meh). Gaius could go Myrmidon and become the dodgiest man alive (exaggeration but I don't care) or Fighter and have great attack + always double. Fighter!Gaius x Sumia is actually pretty effective throughout the game, at least it was when I tried it.

[PKL]

Cordelia can have Stahl basically forever and no one willl care anyways. It's his best support option and they blend really well. By the time Cordelia arrives, Stahl is usually sufficienty leveled to give her better bonuses and once their support rank starts building up, its gg.

[Randa]

I don't know I usually have stahl with sully. Personally I feel that vaike is Cordelia's best option. It fixes any strength issues, adds a minor defensive boost, and eventually makes her even faster.

[PKL]

Except that whenever you switch to Vaike to avoid bows, you lose movement. So I prefer Stahl, Stahl also gives her just enough spd to double whatever she doesn't already double. Sully Stahl is a weird support anyway imo.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Peekayell

[Tamanoir]

Some average stats that may improves the debate.

First, Nowi's Average at level 20 (Tiki's starting level. Difficulty is hard, it's slightly more for Lunatic) :

Level HP STR MAG SKL SPD LCK DEF RES

20 38,4 15,05 6,8 10,5 11,5 19,05 13,05 10,5

25 44,4 18,3 8,8 13 14 22,3 16,3 13

30 50,4 21,55 10,8 15,5 16,5 25,55 19,55 15,5

...So Tiki is better in average.

Now, some comparison betwen Cordelia and Sumia

Cordelia :

Level HP STR MAG SKL SPD LCK DEF RES

7 25 9 3 13 12 9 8 8

10 27,7 10,8 3,6 14,8 13,8 10,35 9,35 9,05

Sumia :

7 22,5 8,7 4,5 15,2 15,2 11,6 6,8 9,4

10 24,75 10,05 5,25 17,3 17,3 13,4 7,7 10,6

So at equal level, the strength differenece is pretty insignificant. Cordelia leads on HP and Def, but sumia leads in Skill, Speed and Luck.

And, last but not least, Libra's and Anna's absolute base stats (Hard Mode).

Libra :

HP STR MAG SKL SPD LCK DEF RES

15 9 11 9 8 10 5 10

Anna :

17 8 13 13 11 26 5 5

That may be usefull

Edited June 9, 2013 by TendaSlime

[Da Bear]

The whole thing about Nowi > Tiki is Nowi is around longer and will be a higher level than Tiki.

Also on pairing Cordelia. Vaike works extremely well. Losing move occasionally isn't that big.

Edited June 9, 2013 by bearclaw13

[PKL]

Except Nowai has to babied and takes a lot of exp to do what Tiki will eventually do herself. In fact, Nowi never pays off that well unless shes extremely overleveled. She will have issues doubling basically forever. Note that the routs that are tough are usualy 23 and 24, which Tiki is around for.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Peekayell

[The Fush]

I don't really like the stahlsully pairing when it comes down to the resulting child; Kjelle would only gain the archer set from Stahl, a class line that might aswell be ignored to begin with.

Regarding the averages between Cordelia and Sumia; Skill lead acknowledged, but the amount of strength you have in early game matters, and speed doesn't really matter because pegasus knights are almost un-outspeedable anyway.

The difference between them is actually decently comparable to Miriel vs. Ricken, now that I think of it, though with less... extreme differences. I just like Cordelia because while Sumia's stats seem best for killing mages, Cordelia is like a jack that can do good at fighting more than just mages.

Also, are you sure those are Libra's Hard Mode starting stats? I recall him having most of his stats in the double digits...

[General Horace]

They're his personal bases. So if he and Anna were in the same class, Anna would actually win durability and pretty much everything else. I think the point of it was because people complain about Anna's durability, but its really not much worse than Libra's who many people consider durable for some reason.

Edited June 9, 2013 by General Horace

[Da Bear]

They're his personal bases. So if he and Anna were in the same class, Anna would actually win durability and pretty much everything else. I think the point of it was because people complain about Anna's durability, but its really not much worse than Libra's who many people consider durable for some reason.

To be fair though. Libra has tankier classes and supports to make him better at taking hits.

Also I plan on giving Anna a 4/10... 8 defense and 10 resistance on someone who can't actually dodge that reliably (supports are crucial to dodging) is just... no.

[charlie_]

lucky seven is a thing

[PKL]

Lol...so Anna can't dodge now apparenty.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Peekayell

[Da Bear]

lucky seven is a thing

It's not enough in my experience. She starts facing >50% hit rates after liek chapter 11.

[charlie_]

This is why you don't throw her up against lance enemies?