RTU discussion thread

[shadykid]

Umm. Maybe include in your statement that they both die in 2 hits... which is pretty similar to Donnel.

no, not really unless Donnel is somehow 2HKOing things with absolutely no help

[Da Bear]

no, not really unless Donnel is somehow 2HKOing things with absolutely no help

Considering that Virion and Ricken are both dying just as fast their offense leads (Donnel countering 1-range makes him arguably better than Virion) are pretty negligible (I can 2HKO! Sadly it's nearly worthless because I'm 2HKOed!). Donnel grows into something pretty amazing.

[shadykid]

Considering that Virion and Ricken are both dying just as fast their offense leads (Donnel countering 1-range makes him arguably better than Virion) are pretty negligible (I can 2HKO! Sadly it's nearly worthless because I'm 2HKOed!). Donnel grows into something pretty amazing.

LOLOL

i'll agree with Virion sucking, but with that much effort you could actually turn Ricken into a competent fighter

[Constable Reggie]

Assuming he has a 2 str pair up partner, Level 2 Donnel does 2 damage to the ch5 wyverns, and takes 12-15 damage in return (17 hp total), depending on def pairup. You're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that he's better because he has 1-range.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Da Bear]

LOLOL

i'll agree with Virion sucking, but with that much effort you could actually turn Ricken into a competent fighter

You appear to have deluded yourself into thinking Aptitude isn't well worth the work... I've trained Donnel efficiently before he was great and made a great kid (Noire). He does have a good end you obviously haven't tried hard enough.

Ricken becomes competent, Donnel becomes great. The only real difference is Ricken can be trained better.

Assuming he has a 2 str pair up partner, Level 2 Donnel does 2 damage to the ch5 wyverns, and takes 12-15 damage in return (17 hp total), depending on def pairup. You're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that he's better because he has 1-range.

Not you again...

Also Virion is KOed just as fast. Virion can't really do much when you actually play the map. Donnel can at least grab kills/pair up with someone to make a great kid. Virion fails at everything he does. Donnel can at least grow. Donnel is better in the future. Not at the moment. You need to understand a person's thought process before coming to conclusions. I wasn't saying Donnel was better in that map I meant using him is better in the long run.

[Constable Reggie]

Virion only needs 2 levels and a 2def pair up (21 hp + 9 def against 19 atk) to survive 2 hits from the ch5 wyverns/barbarians. Totally feasible since he has 4 chapters until then.

Also, I'm not sure how you conclude that he can grab kills without serious babying. Assuming a pairup, he does like 2-6 damage, is always 2hkoed, and is stuck in one range. Virion can at least chip or pick off targets for exp, and can survive relatively well if for some reason you're letting him get attacked often.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[shadykid]

Not you again...

not YOU again

[Da Bear]

Virion only needs 2 levels and a 2def pair up (21 hp + 9 def against 19 atk) to survive 2 hits from the ch5 wyverns/barbarians. Totally feasible since he has 4 chapters until then.

4 Chapters in which he's literally the worst unit on your team. Those 2 levels are pretty annoying/hard to get when you consider that he's 3HKOing the weakest enemies in his join and he isn't exactly growing stronger. So in order for him to get those 2 kills a map he needs kill-feeding... and in return for however that happened he's 2HKOing some enemies in one Chapter. Which actually isn't that great when you consider Ricken is doing the same, MU and Chrom can easily 1-round and Miriel might 1-round.

So feeding Virion kills gives us above-average (but not by much) offense and below average-defense for one map... that's really not sounding like a good choice (almost as bad as choosing to use him).

[Constable Reggie]

We're not talking about Ricken/MU/Chrom/Miriel. We're talking about Virion compared to Donnel. And you can't seriously be trying to argue that it's difficult to get Virion 2 levels in four chapters.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Da Bear]

We're not talking about Ricken/MU/Chrom/Miriel. We're talking about Virion compared to Donnel.

So were in some kind of vacuum space where no one else exists? I was pointing out that Virion isn't really doing that well.

not YOU again

You just made a worthless post. Congats, instead of adding to discussion you made yourself look like an idiotic jerk. I really don't think you had any need to comment on the least important part of one of my posts while ignoring my argument. Laziness?

[Constable Reggie]

Fine, then let me point out that literally everyone who joins you is better than Donnel, so there's no point in using Donnel, especially compared to Virion.

By the way, I just checked out the ch1 enemy stats, and Virion 2hkos everyone except the single 3def merc and the boss without a pairup.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[shadykid]

Fine, then let me point out that literally everyone who joins you is better than Donnel, so there's no point in using Donnel, especially compared to Virion.

By the way, I just checked out the ch1 enemy stats, and Virion 2hkos everyone except the single 3def merc and the boss without a pairup.

actually, isn't the merc's defense slightly variable anyway

so it really could be 2HKO everything except the boss

ha, his signature is wrong too!

Edited May 28, 2013 by shadykid

[Da Bear]

Fine, then let me point out that literally everyone who joins you is better than Donnel, so there's no point in using Donnel, especially compared to Virion.

By the way, I just checked out the ch1 enemy stats, and Virion 2hkos everyone except the single 3def merc and the boss without a pairup.

When did I say Donnel was better than anyone else? Nowhere. He's better than Virion.

Nice how you ignore that most of that map is forest. And who is Virion pairing up with? Lissa is the only one not better off elsewhere.

[Constable Reggie]

So what? By your logic, everyone else is better than Donnel too, so there's no point in using Donnel either.

I didn't factor the forest because the majority of the map (at least where the combat is taking place) is still plains, especially where Virion is. Even factoring the forests in, he still 2hkos the mercenaries he barely misses these, my bad. He gets the archer, though

By the way, Sully's only 3hkoing everything on the chapter.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Da Bear]

So what? By your logic, everyone else is better than Donnel too, so there's no point in using Donnel either.

I didn't factor the forest because the majority of the map (at least where the combat is taking place) is still plains, especially where Virion is. Even factoring the forests in, he still 2hkos the mercenaries.

By the way, Sully's only 3hkoing everything on the chapter.

Just when I think you're about to grasp how I think things through it's back to square one.

No... the best way to do combat is for your units to hang out on forts. At least have your foot units hang there. Virion's hiding out behind there somewhere in the middle of the bushes. Also wasn't it the Mercenary that you said is 3HKOed in your last post?

Sully can double with Chrom or take MU/Frederick and use one of them well, Virion can't Sully >>>>> Virion in Chapter 1. Why you even brought that up is beyond me.

[Constable Reggie]

You're the one comparing Virion to everyone else except Donnel. Why are we not allowed to compare Donnel to everyone too? Why do you refuse to simply directly compare the two?

The 3def mercenary is hanging out at the top of the map according to my source, so Virion's not even going to be fighting him. It's easy enough to position your units where you're in the bush, and they're in the plains. Simple tactics, really.

This is hard mode, by the way. As in all your units are like, 3hkoed at worst. There's no reason at all to just camp at the forts. Sully/Virion are also not going to be reaching MU/Chrom at any time. I'm not saying that Sully's worse than Virion either, simply that Virion can 2hko (your argument was that he can't), which is something that not even Sully can do this early.

I'm merely pointing out the factual errors in your arguments.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Da Bear]

You're the one comparing Virion to everyone else except Donnel. Why are we not allowed to compare Donnel to everyone too? Why do you refuse to simply directly compare the two?

The 3def mercenary is hanging out at the top of the map according to my source, so Virion's not even going to be fighting him. It's easy enough to position your units where you're in the bush, and they're in the plains. Simple tactics, really.

This is hard mode, by the way. As in all your units are like, 3hkoed at worst. There's no reason at all to just camp at the forts. Sully/Virion are also not going to be reaching MU/Chrom at any time. I'm not saying that Sully's worse than Virion either, simply that Virion can 2hko (your argument was that he can't), which is something that not even Sully can do this early.

I'm merely pointing out the factual errors in your arguments.

When did I refuse to compare Donnel? It was never brought up and I don't currently have access to stats.

I know it's simple. What isn't simple is keeping Virion alive after 2-3 units have attacked him (if he wants to attack in PP he's taking that many enemies).

Why not? You get a 4 turn when camping on forts instead of like a 3-4 turn. The only difference is camping on forts actually helps Virion because he's not out in the open. Although it takes Sully away from him so that may be negated. Also Sully still KOes just as fast because of countering so you're point there doesn't make sense.

In doing so (I'll admit I messed up a few points) you seem to be ignoring his massive amount of flaws.

Also face to face comparison sounds great until you realize that they're entirely different characters. Virion is all about his... I'm not actually sure... maybe his always havong 2-range? While Donnel's all about how good he is if you work on him which is harder than working on most other units.

And once again we are arguing over like .5-1 points...

[Constable Reggie]

We're not talking about specific posts and their scores in this case, just the general worth of Virion and Donnel.

You were the one who brought up that Virion 2hkoing is not such a big deal because other characters can do the same, and when I said that what they do is irrelevant, you said it isn't. So when I bring up that Donnel is infinitely worse in the same situation, all you said was that "he's better than Virion". How? How can he be better than Virion when he 14rkos enemy wyverns and is 2hkoed in return, while Virion 2hkos and is 3hkoed? Bringing in the other characters, which you had no problem doing for your case against Virion, the situation is only worsened tenfold.

If you're really so hellbent on these forts, let me point out that the tiles next to them are plains, which only weakens your point.

How am I not making sense? Virion 2hkos, Sully 3hkos. Sully being able to counter does not negate this fact.

I'm not ignoring his flaws at all. I'm simply correcting your false exaggerations of Virion's combat.

You've yet to point out how Donnel can feasibly get exp without massive babying.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[shadykid]

We're not talking about specific posts and their scores in this case, just the general worth of Virion and Donnel.

You were the one who brought up that Virion 2hkoing is not such a big deal because other characters can do the same, and when I said that what they do is irrelevant, you said it isn't. So when I bring up that Donnel is infinitely worse in the same situation, all you said was that "he's better than Virion". How? How can he be better than Virion when he 14rkos enemy wyverns and is 2hkoed in return, while Virion 2hkos and is 3hkoed? Bringing in the other characters, which you had no problem doing for your case against Virion, the situation is only worsened tenfold.

If you're really so hellbent on these forts, let me point out that the tiles next to them are plains, which only weakens your point.

How am I not making sense? Virion 2hkos, Sully 3hkos. Sully being able to counter does not negate this fact.

I'm not ignoring his flaws at all. I'm simply correcting your false exaggerations of Virion's combat.

You've yet to point out how Donnel can feasibly get exp without massive babying.

well the discussion ends here, really

[Da Bear]

We're not talking about specific posts and their scores in this case, just the general worth of Virion and Donnel.

You were the one who brought up that Virion 2hkoing is not such a big deal because other characters can do the same, and when I said that what they do is irrelevant, you said it isn't. So when I bring up that Donnel is infinitely worse in the same situation, all you said was that "he's better than Virion". How? How can he be better than Virion when he 14rkos enemy wyverns and is 2hkoed in return, while Virion 2hkos and is 3hkoed? Bringing in the other characters, which you had no problem doing for your case against Virion, the situation is only worsened tenfold.

If you're really so hellbent on these forts, let me point out that the tiles next to them are plains, which only weakens your point.

How am I not making sense? Virion 2hkos, Sully 3hkos. Sully being able to counter does not negate this fact.

I'm not ignoring his flaws at all. I'm simply correcting your false exaggerations of Virion's combat.

You've yet to point out how Donnel can feasibly get exp without massive babying.

I sometimes have to wonder... haven't I said multiple times that Donnel is about how he is after training? I never said he joined and was better than Virion. I never said he didn't join terrible. I was pointing out that the map you were using as a point isn't that big of a plus for Virion.

No one is next to the forts when Virion is around, They're attacking him. If he was on the fort then he's almost surrounded and would have trouble moving. If you're out in the open then all the enemies that can attack Virion do so. Leaving him dead.

Here's how it works, Virion attacks enemy, Sully attacks enemy, on EP the enemy attacks them, Sully finishes off enemy, Virion finishes off enemy. They both killed the enemy just as fast.

I don't see where I'm exaggerating. Virion has very little going for him at first and has massive trouble growing because of bow-lock. You are yet to acknowledge Virion's lack of 1-range or mediocre growths in a game with great growths in your posts.

I'm really not up to going into extreme depths on training Donnel. I've done it efficiently several times in the past and it's not really that hard when you know what you're doing. Most people just see Donnel's bases and immediately decide he's terrible instead of working on ways to get him levels. I have no will to point out how to train him because you'll just dismiss it as "Favoritism" and "unnecessary" making it pointless for me to actually post the strats I have for training him and several other great units (which doesn't include him) at the same time. I'll probably post them at a relevant time (when we rank him) not because you haven't figured out how to do so yourself.

well the discussion ends here, really

There are other points I could make (like how great Aptitude is on kids) but I'm exhausted and not up for debating so sure let the discussion end.

[Constable Reggie]

Not sure why you're going off on a tangent about the ch1 thing. You initially said he can't 2hko when he joins. I proved otherwise. I've never denied that Virion is completely subpar, I'm simply refuting your exaggerations.

You keep saying you've done it efficiently several times, but you don't give any reasoning as to how. I've given statistics that show he's practically unusable in a reasonable manner when he joins, but you've given nothing. Until then, there's no credibility in your statement that Donnel can be reasonably trained. Anyone can simply claim that Nino/Sophia/Wendy/etc is totally trainable in an efficient manner and that they've done it several times in the past too, you know.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Raine]

I think what's being argued here is a simple case of seeing a units 'potential' verses seeing a unit's 'strength'. A unit's strength is relative depending on what point in a unit's training it is. Donnel is the most useless unit in the game when starting out. This, however, is offset by him being one of the strongest units in the game seeing as he quickly levels and his growths are second to none (except maybe a kid with aptitude as well). Virion, starting out, is a much stronger unit than Donnel. As they both are leveled, however, Donnel quickly overshadows Virion in usefulness. The only question is how much effort you're willing to put into the beginning of Donnel's steps as compared to the effort put into ensuring Virion doesn't get orko'ed.

[Da Bear]

Not sure why you're going off on a tangent about the ch1 thing. You initially said he can't 2hko when he joins. I proved otherwise. I've never denied that Virion is completely subpar, I'm simply refuting your exaggerations.

You keep saying you've done it efficiently several times, but you don't give any reasoning as to how. I've given statistics that show he's practically unusable in a reasonable manner when he joins, but you've given nothing. Until then, there's no credibility in your statement that Donnel can be reasonably trained. Anyone can simply claim that Nino/Sophia/Wendy/etc is totally trainable in an efficient manner and that they've done it several times in the past too, you know

Screw it. I just started up another file in which I'm training Donnel. He's level 6 going into Paralogue 2. My turn-counts have been;

[spoiler=P1; 12],I wanted both chests and accidentally killed off the thief that opens things up for me and no one on my team except Sully was anywhere close to averages (I'm sitting on a level 8 Stahl with 8 speed) Donnel got 2 level ups both of which were gotten by the 7th turn. 12 turns. Also pairs were Donnel + Fred, Sumia + Kellam, Sully + Vaike and Stahl +Lissa.

[spoiler=Chapter 4; 4,] I did this with my team as Sully + Frederick (1-shotting mages with bronze was nice) Chrom + Sumia (who has gained 2 points of strength in 8 level ups) and Donnel + Kellam. Sully did most of the work but Donnel MVPed because he would hang around and kill the stuff that Sully almost killed so Sully could go on. Sumia and Chrom basically took out the knights. Donnel gained 1 level and came really close to the next. 4 turns

[spoiler=Chapter 5; 7,]

I really wish my Stahl and Sumia aren't both so bad... made this chapter extremely annoying. I started out by having Stahl (Lon'qu) weaken the side enemies with Donnel (Kellam) following to kill on turn 2. Stahl then headed up the left side of the map. Sumia (Fred) and Sully (Chrom) destroyed everything up the middle thanks to pair up I was able to get everything to suicide into Sully which was nice. Donnel took out reinforcements on the bottom with Maribelle and Lissa keeping him alive. 7 turns

My entire team has been chowing down on tonics this entire PT. Donnel Is actually doing very well here and the only levels that really might not have happened are the Chapter 4 ones since fielding Donnel over Stahl wasn't the most efficient choice.

So yeah basically even Donnel can be raised pretty easily thanks to tonics and pair up. I can explain more on that later.

Edited May 28, 2013 by bearclaw13

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

GUYS

GUYS

GUYS

Give Virion Panne and with SPD Tonics he can ORKO some stuff with little amount of training comes chapter 8/9/10

This way you can 2 Turn Tiki's paralogue!

[Da Bear]

GUYS

GUYS

GUYS

Give Virion Panne and with SPD Tonics he can ORKO some stuff with little amount of training comes chapter 8/9/10

This way you can 2 Turn Tiki's paralogue!

That's a pretty easy map to begin with... I'm waiting for people to call bs on Donnel getting 2 levels in 7 turns in his join paralogue. He needed Frederick to do it but that hurt no one since Sumia had both of her strength procs already and benefited more from Kellam's defense.