Biggest Mary Sue/Gary Stu

[Anacybele]

Regal Sword=Ike's Rapier

Thani? oh what a Mary Sue /Analogic

Like I said, I didn't fucking know that Thani was basically a magic rapier.

BrightBow: Fiona's dad's name is Lanvega. lol

[Shotguner159]

Correction: Daein worships MIcaiah long before she actually liberates them. And why? All because of her uber special hair color and powers. Yes, she's a Branded, but no other Branded is given such a unique and powerful ability. Ike didn't gain respect from anyone until he DID do great stuff. The mercenaries never really thought highly of him until after awhile either. Reyson hated his guts until he rescued Leanne and crap. Same with Tibarn. He also had to earn respect from Sanaki and pretty much everyone else that respects him. Micaiah never earned her fame at all. It's just there all of a sudden.

Ike can't hold Lehran's Medallion without going insane. Only Mist can, and Elena before she died. Greil isn't the only well-known Daein Rider. Black Knight and Petrine are famous too.

All lords have their own special weapons that no one else can use. And in the case of Ettard, it's implied that it was once Greil's sword. Also, what reason is there for Thani to only be usable by MIcaiah?

They worship her while she liberates them because she is liberating them, and considering Begnion has been doing to Daein what Ashnard did to Crimea but for a longer period of time, it's not hard to see why. And unlike Ike, she did it by herself. Ike got troops and funds from Begnion to help in the war against Daein, and later on from the Laguz nations as well. Micaiah got nearly all of her troops from Daein, and only had six members who weren't: Nalaih, Volug, Rafiel. Tormod, Muarim and Vika. Plus, she was the one who led the assaults to free the Daein people from the work camps Begnion had them in.

Ike gets credit for things where he was not the only one involved. Why is he the one who is remembered as the person who mended bridges between Beorc and Laguz? Everyone you had at this point also helped out. Why is Ike remembered as a great general when Soren and Titania came up with the plans and he just parroted them at the troops?

Micaiah's fame DOESN'T come from out of nowhere, Izuka explicitly says that he's spreading rumours in order to make people more likely to buy into their cause, and while there are smidgens of it before, it doesn't start to get really bad until 1-8, which is after she's liberated almost the entirety of Daein offscreen, and she's just returned from saving people from getting executed. How is this not earning her fame?

Ike never touched the medallion, we don't know whether he could touch it or not. And I never said he could, just that he was the son of someone who could, though I admit that the wording was a bit vague. And Greil is the only one to be so badass as to having a title given to him, none of the other riders have that.

Yes, all the lords have special weapons. Typically an early game weapon strong against Armours and Cavaliers, and an awesome weapon. Micaiah just has a rapier, Ike has the Regal Sword, Ragnell and Ettard. Why is he the only one that can use all three? The Regal Sword I'll let slide, since it was a gift, but why the Ettard and Ragnell? There's no reason given for why he's the only one who can use them, unlike how the Falchion can only be used by those of a specific bloodline. And I am aggravated by Thani being Micaiah exclusive, Ike is just more egregious with three exclusive weapons to her one.

[Chiki]

Ike doesn't have any negative traits, at least in FE10.

[shadykid]

oh yeah what's up with Ettard, that thing isn't even a Rapier-like weapon

[Anacybele]

Ike doesn't have any negative traits, at least in FE10.

Yes he does. He's really blunt which can make him seem rude at times, he's reckless, doesn't think before he acts, and is inexperienced for half of PoR. He's also a big glutton, which can be called a weakness as well. In RD, he complains to Rafiel and Nailah gets on his case about it. Therefore, Ike still doesn't think sometimes even in RD.

They worship her while she liberates them because she is liberating them, and considering Begnion has been doing to Daein what Ashnard did to Crimea but for a longer period of time, it's not hard to see why. And unlike Ike, she did it by herself. Ike got troops and funds from Begnion to help in the war against Daein, and later on from the Laguz nations as well. Micaiah got nearly all of her troops from Daein, and only had six members who weren't: Nalaih, Volug, Rafiel. Tormod, Muarim and Vika. Plus, she was the one who led the assaults to free the Daein people from the work camps Begnion had them in.

Ike gets credit for things where he was not the only one involved. Why is he the one who is remembered as the person who mended bridges between Beorc and Laguz? Everyone you had at this point also helped out. Why is Ike remembered as a great general when Soren and Titania came up with the plans and he just parroted them at the troops?

Micaiah's fame DOESN'T come from out of nowhere, Izuka explicitly says that he's spreading rumours in order to make people more likely to buy into their cause, and while there are smidgens of it before, it doesn't start to get really bad until 1-8, which is after she's liberated almost the entirety of Daein offscreen, and she's just returned from saving people from getting executed. How is this not earning her fame?

Ike never touched the medallion, we don't know whether he could touch it or not. And I never said he could, just that he was the son of someone who could, though I admit that the wording was a bit vague. And Greil is the only one to be so badass as to having a title given to him, none of the other riders have that.

Yes, all the lords have special weapons. Typically an early game weapon strong against Armours and Cavaliers, and an awesome weapon. Micaiah just has a rapier, Ike has the Regal Sword, Ragnell and Ettard. Why is he the only one that can use all three? The Regal Sword I'll let slide, since it was a gift, but why the Ettard and Ragnell? There's no reason given for why he's the only one who can use them, unlike how the Falchion can only be used by those of a specific bloodline. And I am aggravated by Thani being Micaiah exclusive, Ike is just more egregious with three exclusive weapons to her one.

Ike gets the most credit because he was the LEADER, duh. He was the one that had to keep the spirits and motivation of the troops high, and that he did. Begnion didn't agree to give him ANYTHING until he proved himself by doing a few missions for Sanaki.

Ike made some of his own decisions too. He decided to rescue Geoffrey, despite others being against that plan. He decided or didn't decide to hire Volke. Titania and Soren just mostly advised him, not made his choices for him.

I explained Ettard already. It was implied that it was Greil's personal blade. Although, Urvan could be wielded by anyone with an SS rank in axes (probably because giving Ike four exclusive weapons would just be overkill). Ragnell is Ike's equivalent to every other game's late-game powerful weapon. Durandal, Armads, Sieglinde, Siegmund, etc.

[RJWalker]

The only character that truly be called a Mary Sue is Robin because the entire revolves around them after the halfway point and it actively harms the story. Micaiah and Ike and Seliph and all the other lords getting lot of praise does nothing to harm the story.

Ike has already gotten character development in FE9. If we ignore FE9, then yes, Ike is a Grade A God Mode Mary Sue. But we can't just ignore an entire game.

Micaiah is set up as a intentional Mary Sue before being brutally subverted. I'll stand by the claim that anyone who says that Micaiah is a Mary Sue hasn't played FE10 past Part 1.

You could call one of them a Mary Sue though it's really stretching it.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Ranger Jack Walker

[Loki Laufeyson]

That's most likely unrelated. There is no clear evidence of any causation.

"I once read a poll that showed that 10% of people are left handed. I also read a scientific study showing about 10% of the population is of a deviant sexuality. I think it's obvious what that means".

Also, this.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

It's not the oxford definition or anything, but it has more or less the average obvservations of how it is used on the internet. The very definition of Mary Sue is debated in and of itself, so this argument is kind of doomed to go nowhere. Hope this helps at all.

In reality, Micaiah is a Canon Sue, a Mary Sue within the canon of the game itself. I'm changing my vote to Avatar, not because of the writing but more for the fact that it fits the purpose of a Sue the most, being an escapist self-insert that gives the player a great deal of freedom. The way it is written into the story isn't as severe as part 1 Micaiah, but Avatar very concretely serves the purpose.

Still, in the end, I feel "biggest" isn't a good term for comparing Mary Sues, considering the flexible nature of their definition(s).

Huh, the Tv Tropes page is different from what i remember.

Im not sure its actually fair to call Micaiah a Canon Sue. She certainly toes the line, but im not certain she is one. I think shes simply the victim of bad writing and a rushed ending. The biggest Sue Moments regarding her are:

Everyone, including Skrimir, being all "Micaiah is awesome" after Part 3.

Being revealed as the Lost Apostle sorta out of left field in the Epilogue.

Sacrifice ability.

These are the things that just arent explained well enough and make her look Sueish. Im sure the writers didnt want all the characters gnashing their teeth at each other so they chose to make everyone just accept what happens, but its pretty sloppily done. Outside of Sothe speaking up about it, but everyone shoots him down anyway.

The Lost Apostle thing was just rushed and felt like an Ass Pull. I could buy her being a Heron Branded just fine. But like, there was just not enough exposition about that. Even Sephiran's "scenes" in the Tower didnt explain Micaiah's existence as Sanaki's older sister very well if at all. Lekain mentions it in part 4 but thats the only clue we get. Meh.

Sacrifice, while really cool in gameplay terms, just never made sense to me. Like at all. Did all the Apostles have this ability? Its never stated.

So due to that, yeah, i chalk it up as poor writing. Micaiah would have been a fantastic character if they simply just didnt fumble the Part 4 shit so bad.

Avatar is even a Mary Tzu according to Tv Tropes. lol! That part with Validar, Chrom, and Avatar when she/he supposedly "murders" Chrom and Basilio coming out of nowhere. Oh yeah that just reeks of Sue. Peeeeyeww!

[Caliban of Sycorax]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned FE12!MU. Yeah, self-insert, but MU's dialogue is "I like to serve Marth", "My grandfather was a dick", and "You don't like Marth, you die". FE12!MU is praised constantly, and you're only given criticism if you have bad stats or someone dies.

[CT075]

gheb is the greatest mary sue

[-Cynthia-]

I suppose FE12!MU escapes it because they really get outshined by Marth in terms of plot importance (and most people don't find Marth too Stuish apparently).

[shadykid]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned FE12!MU. Yeah, self-insert, but MU's dialogue is "I like to serve Marth", "My grandfather was a dick", and "You don't like Marth, you die". FE12!MU is praised constantly, and you're only given criticism if you have bad stats or someone dies.

I'm going for this now, because at least FE13 Avatar has a personality

and silly cam, clearly Glass is the true Mary Sue

[Caliban of Sycorax]

I suppose FE12!MU escapes it because they really get outshined by Marth in terms of plot importance (and most people don't find Marth too Stuish apparently).

While I do agree that FE12!MU is unimportant to the plot, he/she, like FE13!Avatar, is in every fucking scene, even when talking about useless things or being praised by Marth/Jagen/everyone else.

[Merun]

FE13 Avatar probably. Oh, good at tactics, fighting, intelligent, can be any class ever, fathers/mothers the best child in the game, can marry anyone, etc. etc.

Also Jasmine, no explanation needed

Edited May 28, 2013 by Rawr

[Sunwoo]

Not going to vote or even share my opinions. But on the subject of Micaiah and Ike, I have no idea why those two are the flamestarters that they are. Regardless, everyone has their opinion on why Ike/Micaiah is/is not a Gary Stu/Mary Sue. People who say that those who do not share their opinions on why this is so are "silly" or "did not understand the game", please don't. "Mary Sue" isn't a very well-defined term in the first place, and it may mean slightly different things to different people.

[Chiki]

Not going to vote or even share my opinions. But on the subject of Micaiah and Ike, I have no idea why those two are the flamestarters that they are. Regardless, everyone has their opinion on why Ike/Micaiah is/is not a Gary Stu/Mary Sue. People who say that those who do not share their opinions on why this is so are "silly" or "did not understand the game", please don't. "Mary Sue" isn't a very well-defined term in the first place, and it may mean slightly different things to different people.

"Dificult" can mean slightly different things to different people. So can "easy," "annoying," and so on. None of those are very well-defined, specific terms because they do not make clear what exactly is annoying. It leaves room open for subjectivity. But we can still have discussions on what is difficult and easy and annoying. We can do the same with the term "Mary Sue."

[Sunwoo]

I'm not saying that it's impossible to have discussions about what characters we think is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, I agree with that (as long as it stays civil). I'm saying that one shouldn't call someone who disagrees with them "silly" or "hasn't played through the game" or, well, make it about the "person".

[mai]

How is Micaiah a Mary Sue? One of the most important traits of Mary Sues is that everyone (except the villains, most of the time) loves them. My personal rule is that a character can't be a Mary Sue as long as there's at least a couple of characters who don't like them, and there's plenty of characters who hate Micaiah, and with a reason, because she sometimes makes terrible decisions. Sure, she has some Sueish traits (magical healing powers, the whole Yune thing) but she's in no way worse than Robin, Kris or even Ike.

But that's just my opinion; "Mary Sue" ha pretty much lost its meaning nowadays. It seems like everyone has their own definition of what a Mary Sue is, so I agree that this is kind of a difficult discussion.

[Chiki]

I'm not saying that it's impossible to have discussions about what characters we think is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, I agree with that (as long as it stays civil). I'm saying that one shouldn't call someone who disagrees with them "silly" or "hasn't played through the game" or, well, make it about the "person".

I do think it's silly to think Micaiah is a Mary Sue, though. It's one thing to be in the limits of the definition (one can be a minor Mary Sue, or a major one) but Micaiah isn't one at all. She's pretty much universally disliked and makes plenty of mistakes throughout the game, and is overshadowed completely by Yune and Ike when they show up. She just doesn't fit whatever definition "Mary Sue" is at all.

[Sunwoo]

It's fine if you think it's silly to believe Micaiah is a Mary Sue, but the person you are arguing against may have his or her own reasons on why they think Micaiah is a Mary Sue that aren't silly to that person, which is where the loose definition of a "Mary Sue" comes into play in the first place.

[-Cynthia-]

I do think it's silly to think Micaiah is a Mary Sue, though. It's one thing to be in the limits of the definition (one can be a minor Mary Sue, or a major one) but Micaiah isn't one at all. She's pretty much universally disliked and makes plenty of mistakes throughout the game, and is overshadowed completely by Yune and Ike when they show up. She just doesn't fit whatever definition "Mary Sue" is at all.

If you define "Mary Sue" by various 'Sue traits', Micaiah often scores quite high. The thing is, such traits are just commonly correlated with the plot centering around said character and focusing on how awesome they are, not the actual thing that causes them to be a "Mary Sue".

[Chiki]

It's fine if you think it's silly to believe Micaiah is a Mary Sue, but the person you are arguing against may have his or her own reasons on why they think Micaiah is a Mary Sue that aren't silly to that person, which is where the loose definition of a "Mary Sue" comes into play in the first place.

A bachelor is an unmarried male. I could try and convince someone that I'm a bachelor, and they might have reasons for thinking otherwise which they might think is not silly, but it is silly.

There are just some cases in which a person doesn't fit into a discussed definition. Micaiah is one of them.

If you define "Mary Sue" by various 'Sue traits', Micaiah often scores quite high. The thing is, such traits are just commonly correlated with the plot centering around said character and focusing on how awesome they are, not the actual thing that causes them to be a "Mary Sue".

If we look at the context of 2-1, Nephenee's pretty cool, too. It might be true for the context of Part 1 for Micaiah, as well. But not for the main game--she's treated like a demon in Part 3, and only has a couple of lines in Part 4.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Chiki

[Sunwoo]

A bachelor is an unmarried male. I could try and convince someone that I'm a bachelor, and they might have reasons for thinking otherwise which they might think is not silly, but it is silly.

Uh, the exact definition of a "bachelor" is pretty set. The exact definition of a "Mary Sue" is not. Being "unmarried" is pretty definite. Traits that people consider Sueish and not Sueish are not definite. It's not the same thing.

[Chiki]

Uh, the exact definition of a "bachelor" is pretty set. The exact definition of a "Mary Sue" is not. Being "unmarried" is pretty definite. Traits that people consider Sueish and not Sueish are not definite. It's not the same thing.

The universal definition of Mary Sue can vary. For example, one can think it is being liked, and so on. The subjectivity ends once we pick which definition it is, in my opinion, and turns into a case of the bachelor definition. I don't think Micaiah can fit in any universal definition of Mary Sue.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Chiki

[Tamanoir]

Emmeryn is also a pretty big Mary Sue, when you think of it. Her character definition is litterally that she is perfect. She decides to sacrifice herself (because she is Jesus), but it ended up winning the war because everyone see how awesome and pure she is. Gangrel's main proof of madness is that he can't see how great she is and is consumed by hatred. For the first part of the story, she's even sueish than the Avatar. Everyone loves and respect her, except the villains. Besides, if she was killed, the world would have gone to chaos. this may be fully deserved, for all we know (though suiciding itself and abandonning everyone behind is pretty foolish), but that's not the point here.

[Snowy_One]

Wait. Lyn gets on the list but not Eirika? If anyone is the main character of FE8 it's Eirika and not her brother seeing as his path is optional but the early-bits where you play without him are not.