Touhou NOCfia - Game Over

[Strege]

I'm on my phone and therefore useless. Ninja could be for concealing the swap -- role spec and null though. I don't really accept PBlade's argument for Bluedoom being town because if he mass jans then he loses the swap ability (go check the claim) and he might've wanted to keep the it. He says he swapped or meant to swap two confirmed town (BT and Objection) but if I'm not mistaken BT was already dead at that time so we don't know that. I'd like Bluedoom to explain why he swapped two randoms instead of himself and someone, and who he swapped with last night (plus my other questions).

I'm not strongly opposed to mass claiming, but I'm trying to be optimistic.

[BBM]

To be fair to Marth, they're only confirmed town now. I think he was also trying to swap someone he thought was scum with someone whom thought was town, to take away the scummier person's cards and ideally replace them with worse ones. Objection confirmed that his cards were swapped.

As for why Marth didn't swap with himself, well, he'd then lose the ability to swap and also give up the mass-jan. Giving that to somebody whom he thinks might be scum is pretty dumb.

[Strege]

I'm dumb wrt swapping his own card. What I meant wrt swapping two confirmed town that we don't know if he did. We don't know that he swapped BT. He could have swapped town with scum for info and possibly a better card.

Null, but I want to hear his thoughts.

[BBM]

Well, no, we don't know for sure that he swapped Objection with BT, but presumably if he were scum he wouldn't just give Objection, a member of the town, a card that can silence someone for the day.

[CT075]

Can anyone who feels uncomfortable with the Marth wagon (Paperblade, Cam) give reasons for that?

It's mostly that I'm not seeing it. I'm on my second pass through the thread (all 60 pages of it)

[Kriemhild]

I've checked out Blues' ISO and I'm really not seeing anything scummy in it. Sure, he sometimes writes a lot just to elaborate on a few points, but that seems more like he's concerned about making his point very clear with sufficient explanations, rather than "scum trying to look like they're contributing a lot".

Also, since I will be really busy today in changing rooms, I may not be here once you guys actually start massclaiming, so I'll claim right now myself. My character is Ibuki Suika, and my role is Neighborizer, which allows me to invite players to a neighbor group, where we can enjoy OC to ourselves as long as I'm alive to govern the party. So far, I've already invited Fera and Paper and two others whose identities I probably shouldn't reveal.

[BBM]

I find Marth scummy because after attacking Blitz for a while, he started a chainsaw defence of him by calling all the later votes on it weak and lazy. Despite feeling that way though, he never made an attempt to actually look at a single one of the votes against Blitz. The only specific vote he spoke out against was Xinny's, and that wasn't because of the content of her vote, but its timing. Then on D3, he made no attempt to tie his Objection vote back to Blitz interactions. Overall, his Blitz interactions feel like defending for towncred.

Then yesterday, he tried to get Objection and SB into a 1v1 because he didn't think multiple redirecting roles could exist, which is a really weak reason for a 1v1. There's more stuff but effort.

Strege, what happened to your Xinny read from yesterday? You seemed pretty adamant about it. IIRC, I responded to a part of it and Xinny also defended herself. What are your opinions about her now?

Also looking forward to opinions from Elie, Cam, and Shadoweh once they're done with their reads (primarily the first two though).

[Bluedoom]

Well fuck apparently my scumreads are wrong. >_> ##Vote: kirsche I don't have much time to post but uh, he part of my list of scumreads in my last post so I'm voting him for now.

Also paper's right in that I use my spellcard via role PM and I'm a traditional ninja.

[Paperblade]

He tried to get them into

Then yesterday, he tried to get Objection and SB into a 1v1 because he didn't think multiple redirecting roles could exist, which is a really weak reason for a 1v1. There's more stuff but effort.

This is a bit unfair, he thought SB was claiming Objection specifically redirected him and backed off as soon as I pointed out he didn't. It's possible he was scum trying to go for a "I'll try to get a freebie and if someone points out I'm wrong back off" but eh

[Paperblade]

idk where that first line came from

[BBM]

No, he thought SB and Objection were in a 1v1 because Objection said that he didn't redirect SB. He thought that only one redirecting role could be there, because more would screw up setup balance, and therefore thought that either SB must have been lying about getting redirected, or that Objection must have been lying about not targeting SB. Read 802. He backed off after you said that you redirected SB because it was proof that multiple redirectors did actually exist.

[Paperblade]

That still doesn't explain how he's scum, just how he's dumb/wrong.

[Sunwoo]

I think it's the culmination of a lot of little things Marth has done that, when taken together as a whole, looks scummy. You said that you figured he was town but playing badly, right? I myself am not convinced that he's town playing badly. As for his claim itself, the way he claimed it, I can see both scum and town motives in doing so. It's not changing my opinion any.

Clearly you don't think Marth is scum, but who do you think IS scum?

[Sunwoo]

This just in. I'm in a very foul mood right now and I think I'm going to snap. Don't expect me around anytime soon.

[Strege]

@BBM: Was Objection's card a good one? It seems like you could save a scumbuddy but it'd be really conspicuous. Also I'm finally back at my computer -- I had been in the middle or replying to you and Xinnidy when the thread blew up, and haven't been near my computer a whole lot since.

Bluedoom and Objection are literally the two people I've talked the most and held the most suspicion about overall. I refuse to provide something I've been providing consistently enough.

*Quantified reads" is what I was looking for. It's unclear to me how much of your discussion with Bluedoom is defending yourself and how much is saying his logic is bad (because of course they can be different things). It's also wasn't clear with Objection how much you thought he was scummy and how much you just thought he was weird (everyone had acknowledged his play is weird).

I suggest you read my ISO again (or this post, even!).

By in my recent posts, you mean all of one (this) post.

Post 687 also does it.

I do that because he's essentially been kept himself on this point alone against me for the longest time, and has never bothered elaborating.

In my opinion, the quantity of my other content is fine and much larger than that defense in general, just not in that post. If you think I spent more content defending myself than I do reading people, you're wrong. If you're speaking solely for D3, you're right, however, and I see no problem with it, I take my time, I have no life, and it's just instinctively easier to generate content when I'm being addressed.

I didn't say it was more, I said it was a lot. And defending yourself is fine; I just find your efforts suspiciously ardent.

There was an SB wagon? When?

D2, I'm pretty sure, but I'm bad with time. You call it a wagon in post 474. Semantics aside, you had commented on SB when he was a topic of discussion, but were unclear about your position on him.

I confirm that I haven't read post 276 ever before.

I didn't find SB's proto vote conclusive as a misrep, true, and I found him suspect aside from his role, I opted to wait for content while pushing scummier people.

I don't understand the first part of this sentence.

If you're talking about my criticism on Baldrick there, you're also misrepping me awfully.

I meant to write Proto, not Baldrick -- not sure how a messed that one up. I was paraphrasing SB about Proto. I'm dropping this argument since you missed the post.

Correction: The last time I mention SB is here, though I don't outright mention his name, I do mention I find his crumb to be very pro-town.

I missed that, my bad.

Sure, you can use the role =/= allignment against that stance, sure. But I would consider it a dumb way to keep uncertainty in the air.

It is never explicit that all players have a spellcard, I wouldn't call it crazy to assume that, if he said with such certainty, he's got the info from somewhere akin to BBM's early D1 info. I wanted to confirm that.

...That took forever more than it needed to.

STREGE, I THINK YOUR CRITICISM OF XINNY'S 474 IS GOOD, BUT I DON'T REALLY GET THE POINT ABOUT 687. IT MAKES SENSE TO ME THAT IF SHE WAS BACKING OFF SB DUE TO HIS CLAIM, SHE WOULD TALK ABOUT HIM LESS THAN SHE WOULD IF SHE WAS STILL SCUMREADING HIM.

After reading the post no less than 4 times I finally get it. I was reading into it the implication that she was ever really pushing SB, when she wasn't.

So, I see Xinnidy as somewhat scummy, but not where I was at before. Bluedoom is kinda /eh/ as well. Honestly, I think the scummiest person right now is Paperblade. Today, he's calling for a massclaim and feels like he's defending Bluedoom with kinda weak logic and no specific problems with the criticisms that I can see. He suggested reaction testing BBM, who was maybe the towniest target for it and hasn't really scumhunted lately (he said he was going to reread the thread, but I can't really base a read off of that). Bleh, I'm just doing it. ##Vote: Paperblade

My activity is going to be pretty patchy over the next week, particularly tomorrow, but give me a shout if you're wondering anything.

[Paperblade]

only 700 posts to go

[Shadoweh]

No, he thought SB and Objection were in a 1v1 because Objection said that he didn't redirect SB. He thought that only one redirecting role could be there, because more would screw up setup balance, and therefore thought that either SB must have been lying about getting redirected, or that Objection must have been lying about not targeting SB. Read 802. He backed off after you said that you redirected SB because it was proof that multiple redirectors did actually exist.

If I understand this right, you're saying this about Bluedoom? (You all keep talking about Marth, WHO THE HELL IS MARTH) and this sounds pretty reasonable for a townie to think. Guy claims something happened, someone else claims it didn't, lynch the liar. I don't get how this makes him scummy.

[charlie_]

He was writing it off as only having 1 redirecting role in a 24p game and not even stopping to consider the possibilities.

Also Marth = Bluedoom

[Paperblade]

Okay, but explain how him being dumb/wrong makes him mafia.

[BBM]

Yeah, sorry, Bluedoom is Marth.

It's scummy because it's pushing two lynches based on rolespec (and really bad rolespec at that). He backed off when he was corrected, yeah, but he pretty much had to at that point, so I don't see it as much in his favour.

Admittedly Paper has a point about the manner in which Marth claimed and all that, but I'm not sure if it outweighs the rest of his stuff, and nobody's really offered a convincing response to the attacks about his play, just something alternate.

[Sunwoo]

Paper, I know you're still rereading the thread, but at the moment is there anyone who's still living that you do want to lynch? We get that you don't think he's scummy. But at this point, who do you suspect the most?

[charlie_]

If we're not lynching marth we should definitely lynch SSG.

[Sunwoo]

Paper, I know you're still rereading the thread, but at the moment is there anyone who's still living that you do want to lynch? We get that you don't think he's scummy. But at this point, who do you suspect the most?

And by "he" I mean Marth, of course.

[Grace]

hi i'm here for a little

in this time i'm brainstorming a possible source for the nnr daykill because i don't think we ever got to the bottom of that (the necktie/stahlypin kill seems to be more a town-aligned daykill as per ~*~the shitlist~*~)

i'll see what i can pull but it's probably not going to be conclusive

also yes i'm lame and haven't reread the main wagon of the day thus far, but that's because i'm lazy (I might read it before i need to go, but won't be able to make a cohesive content post about it)

[Grace]

It only blocks role abilities. Any factional or strong will abilities still go off. Or alternatively if someone had a way around a roleblock.

shinori can i get some clarification; could people still declare cards?

i'm trying to piece together a theory