Touhou NOCfia - Game Over

[BBM]

Well I don't think you're mafia atm but I did kind of agree with parts of what Elie was saying. It felt like you were egging on paranoia, but not really doing anything about it. Okay, it's not your townreads that matter as much as the general consensus townreads. But then why aren't you looking at those, if you feel like one or more of them might be mafia?

[Shadoweh]

You guys are even more terrible at making wagons before deadline then everyone else I know >_> I haven't seen any super damning magic and I've been too sunstroked/insomnia'd to read so I'm just going to sheep onto the bigger wagon today.

##Vote: Sangyul

[Sunwoo]

First of all, it's MY paranoia. Wasn't trying to egg on anyone else's, just stating what I found it odd. I was also specifically asked to expand on said paranoia. Second of all, I'm not feeling confident in my reads and I honestly think it's stupid because for all I know there could be a lucky doctor making saves and Strider was not mafia kill. I'll most likely take another look at Paper and Shinori, but I've already stated what I think of Fera's slot and Proto in-thread and that's not changed much except for neighbor claim.

Also, I am not in an arguing mood right now. All I've been doing yesterday is arguing with people over stupid things and I'm just sick of it right now.

PEDIT: Shadoweh, what the fuck >_>

[BBM]

@Boron- Fair enough, you were asked to expand on it.

Shadoweh, we've still got like 30ish hours I think; we don't need a vote right now for the sole sake of a lynch. Me (and SB I think) also have ghostvote spellcards that'll help reach a hammer if we're falling short. We need reads from whatever you've gathered so far.

[charlie_]

Mine isn't a ghostvote, it's an outright -if you're failing to meet deadline, use this and you'll get the lynch off- card. Only drawback is I have to specify the person.

[Paperblade]

so basically an EM Governor

[charlie_]

no, I can't override lynches and they have to have the most votes on them

[Paperblade]

Oh

[BBM]

Okay, well, the point is, we've got tools to help us secure a lynch. But we're kind of flailing about right now as to who to lynch, which is probably why there aren't any real wagons atm. So we need reads, not votes.

[charlie_]

We also need activity (where the fuck are you half of the game?)

[BBM]

The fuck has happened.

This is Shinori's only post of the phase. >_>

I feel like he's coasting off the D3 reaction test and I hate it when my townreads start coasting.

IIRC SSG just graduated, Strege is busy, and Xinny is sick right now I think.

[Paperblade]

I could also go for a Strege lynch

[Grace]

@Manix- There was a reason I asked but whatever.

and you still don't need to know. there could be any multitude of reasons you're asking but I don't know why

when I reread Boron D2, I didn't have a problem with her at all

boron.iso: looks alright from what i can tell

so a reread is in order there when i have time

[Zkirsche]

Scorri's defence is reasonable and since my only query has been answered as well I'll just go ahead and ##Unvote

I'll reread D3 tomorrow and try to get a stronger read on Xin/Strege/Boron.

[Shinori]

I'm like at work and paying from my phone but I'm technically of work and i haven't fully read anything that has fully happened today. I've skimmed a bit and this game has me so lost and confused and like i feel that we need something to happen but like idk what. Ugh. I'll have an actual post when i get home. I've had a fairly busy and hectic past few days.

[Strege]

Yay I'm back. *fireworks* I'll going to address the stuff directed toward me, then go do a thing, then be back to actually scumhunt like an hour afterward. Apologies to people reading this through email.

Strege, why did you feel the need to vote me D1 for only having one scumread when people like BT and Baldrick were claiming they didn't have any (see 282 for BT's and earlier for Baldrick)?

I can dig through the thread for specifics on BT and Baldrick if you'd like, but, regarding my vote on you, it wasn't entirely because you only had one read. You had a lot of activity but weren't pushing many people (a lot of it was commenting on rules and junk) and your pushing Baldrick looked... "hesitant"? "Unspecified" maybe? You were asking him questions but weren't expressing how serious you were about the vote. Altogether it seemed non-committal to the point of contrivance.

Also, Strege says relatively early in D2 that he is waffling between which of me and SB is scum (couldn't we both be town?) but doesn't bring this back up again for a while.
Also also, why do the game numbers matter wrt 458?

Are you referring to me saying "On yet another reread I don't think Paperblade's post-by-post summary is totally fair actually, and so teeter-totter my reads between them just a bit if you will." in post 402? I meant that your misrepping (which for some reason I didn't point out at the time, but point out later) made me think that you were scummier, and double-checking your work made me think SB was townier than I did when I took your post at face value. It could have been any two people.

Also Strege has been avoiding these wagons like the plague, what's up dude?

My response to BBM below should cover this.

Out of Paperblade's reread post, the point that I agreed with the most was his Strege point about Strege never being on any of the wagons, so I followed it up.

Strege sort of semi-agreed with Baldrick on D1 when he was pushing me, in that he could also "see scum motive" in outing the info that I did, but ultimately took it back. However, he actually said very little about Baldrick himself on D1, despite him being the largest wagon. All he said was that his reads were lacking, which wasn't a great observation to make seeing as Baldrick announced himself that he had no scumreads. Anything else he said about Baldrick was in relation to other people (for example talking about Paperblade's Baldrick suspicion).

I don't understand how anything in the first sentence is scummy. As an aside, I didn't agree with Baldrick's push on you -- he was skeptical about how you acquired the information, and I was skeptical that town!BBM would out it. You missed me commenting on Baldrick a bit, actually. I believe I was the first person to point out Baldrick having a read but not having a vote down (my 203, his 199). Baldrick then voted BBM's contact and I decided instead of necessarily scummy, the action was part of a larger ball of weirdness, hence my comment on him in post 252. My read, which I'll say wasn't really strong in the first place, cooled off because I'm more suspicious of people who are rational and scummy than people who are weird and perhaps incidentally scummy (check my comment on Objection in post 783). I then say that I dislike the lynch and defend Baldrick with what I still feel is a strong piece of evidence in post 351.

In earlyish D2, he mentions Blitz in 402 and said that he was a null read due to just not really being there enough. Then the next time he mentions Blitz is all the way in 618, after the wagon is pretty much solidified, and only then does he actually point out anything scummy that Blitz has done. He actually says that Blitz is really really scummy in this post, so the complete avoidance of Blitz up to that point is really really weird.

I was commenting on Blitz's actions starting at his claim, which were ridiculously, over-the-top scummy. Until then I didn't really see the Blitz lynch -- a few of the things like him misrepping scorri in a stupidly obvious way were weird, but that doesn't imply scumminess. I also admit I wasn't up-to-date on his ISO, which is usually how I develop reads. I was kind of hoping he'd come back with a rational explanation...

On D3, in 783, he says that he's nullreading Objection and that he finds Marth worse, but he only finds Marth himself mildly scummy. His Objection thing is sort of weird because he had a point about Objection in D1 about how he was echoing people's opinions a lot, so this is the second thing that he's found scummy about Objection, and generally even if the suspicions are small, if they last over 3 day phases, they're not just a nullish read. In 809 he says that he finds Marth more townie because of the claim, and would therefore prefer Objection to him. However, he's made no attempt to push Objection since 783, so presumably he's still got only a very tiny scumread there, so why would he prefer Objection at all?

I said I preferred Objection over Bluedoom because they were the two obvious, neck-and-neck wagons. I wanted to have my opinion down on them because someone said (on D1 I think) that not doing so was scummy, and can see that point of view, so I might as well. (Ironically, I am now being suspected for commenting on Objection with a weak read, and *not* commenting on Baldrick when I actually did.) I was probably jumping the gun with lynch talk at that point in the phase. For the record my vote was on Proto, and he was my only strong read, but no one listens to me. :(

tl dr; it feels like Strege has been cheerleading wagons along while most of the time pushing someone completely separate.

Second part fairly accurate, first part massively less accurate.

I think that covers everything, more or less. tl;dr weird =/= scummy, i'll jump on your wagons when they stop being bad, and i'll be back soon

[Xinnidy]

Sickness had me basically focus-incapacitated for the whole past day and a half yay.

At least I'm relatively better now so I'll come up with something in a bit, I have nothing to say about being this tardy for a day phase otherwise.

[spoiler=no votes inside anymore whoops]

The Rein kill makes me want to rage but right now it's really useless for my reads' thought process.

I have pretty mixed feelings about massclaiming right now. Mostly unsure on how it'll help.

I've had reasons to find marth's way of outing his spellcard as scummy in contrast to the reasons people had to find it townie, it was not meant to be an exclusive opinion. Still, I feel my read on marth is very outdated, and part of why I didn't pursue him strongly in D3. Honestly, it continues to fade, but I have a reread incoming:

- I think I'm getting a much better idea of what the mass jan stands for, though the explanations/speculations come from people other than Marth himself... but I see he confirmed it recently anyways.

- What did you mean by kirsche being part of your list of scumreads in your last post here? From what I could get from your ISO, you haven't presented a list of scumreads in days. And I don't see anything in particular, since the last time you mentioned him was here, and even them, only in comparison to other more recent reads, so really, considering how long ago that was, I'd like to hear what are your points on kirsche again, because they're completely lost on me. (blame my short-term memory, if you will)

- To your bundle of defenses in the end of this post, you've sort of answered yourself. You've been rushed by baldrick and couldn't get your day ability done withon D1, but you did on D2 anyways. However, it is true that it's not likely in a sane realm that Objection could have had his card swapped with anyone from town other than BT, and from the shot he used from the newly-swapped card, I don't believe you'd have swapped him with an hypothetical scumbuddy. I concede that point.

-Elieson:

-- I want a better explanation of this post, Elieson. More specifically, what you want to be done with the town reads exactly. Since they're exclusive town reads, how exactly do you expect people to derive substantial suspicion from them, unless you have an idea yourself?

Sorry about your life stuff. But do show up and have content when you're free k? :c

- ZM/Cam honestly still need more content imo, however:

-- I have a bit of an issue with how this post is presented. You think Boron is missable, great. And then there's the fact she partakes in a lot of the main wagons, sure. Are her motives to push said lynches echoing a lot of points that other people have used? I didn't read her at all yet, but the way you put your scumread on her makes it sound like easy, non-joke echo.

- Strege:

*Quantified reads" is what I was looking for. It's unclear to me how much of your discussion with Bluedoom is defending yourself and how much is saying his logic is bad (because of course they can be different things). It's also wasn't clear with Objection how much you thought he was scummy and how much you just thought he was weird (everyone had acknowledged his play is weird).

-- I really don't know how to answer with 100% precision without going for one heck of a self-read that I don't feel like at all, but I generally vote people when I feel I am ok with lynching them at said moment. Of course, I keep asking questions and renewing opinions to convict my beliefs or not. And the only one who didn't really answer and rolled silent to his lynch was blitz. :/

I also stand by my opinion that it's just much easier to express through when I'm being addressed, be it a fault or not.

For explanation purposes:

I don't understand the first part of this sentence.

--The sentence meant I didn't find SB's proto vote to be solid because he didn't explain it enough. Admittedly, I had misrepped him for missing one of his posts.

And yes my wording can be pretty terrible/engrish at times, at least it only took you 4 reads. ^^;

--Onto an actually read, I see a bit of inconsistency from here to here, if you're inclined to believe that Marth is more townie due to his claim and way he did, then when Paperblade calls for it you suddenly start bringing reasons for how Marth could be anti-town and pull that stuff, completely shoving paperblade's logic out of the water, and then using it to vote paper while never really giving another opinion about Bluedoom about it except a nullread?

I can see your point about why Objection's card may not be conclusive, though I reckon you know it's kind of a stretch. And, considering there seems to be no knowledge of a new card swap today, and Objection claiming his new card was more useful than his old one, wouldn't it be more likely if Marth tried to swap again, for more info and a better card? And again, you're using it just as a way to read not Marth himself, but Paper's defence on him as 'weak', when I hope you're aware your logic takes some leaps to justify.

With this in mind, your current logic and reason for the change of stances on Marth looks the most suspect to me at face value.

I am especially frustrated with Objection flipping town especially after that stunt. That said, I am now kind of lacking in leads and reads terribly. And it's just morale crushing how little luck we've had on getting any anti-town flips. please don't tell me this is void 2.0 please please

Well, for the last thing I can mention before I drop dead:

- I don't get what's with the judging people for the wagons they've jumped at, it makes more of a sense if we had at least a flipped scum, because we'd know who would be avoiding who on top of who would be more readily to jump on a flipped townie's wagon, right now it doesn't feel conclusive to me unless it sticks out substantially, and I don't think it ever ringed to that point to me, of course I can just be a chump and missing it because I'm totally lost right now.

Check the spoilers:

##Vote: Strege

I hate my immune system.

...

Break for lovely paracetamol + cold med. There's a million things I've overlooked due to the joyful day I spent away from stuff like this game.

[Xinnidy]

Dammit I'm not reading this Strege ninja right now.

[BBM]

Okay, I actually missed you defending Baldrick, so I'll take that first paragraph back. But with Objection, yes, getting out an opinion about the major wagons is good. But if you only find them very slightly scummy, why say you'd prefer their lynch? I know you say that you might have jumped the gun there, but it feels like you were pushing his lynch forward even though you were saying he wasn't that scummy.

As for the second part of my last sentence, I don't see how it's inaccurate. You yourself say in your immediately preceding sentence that your top read at the time was Proto and you were pushing that. And then you were pushing Xinny later. Neither of those two were main wagons. How were you not pushing someone separate? You were pushing forward the Objection wagon while holding Proto and then Xinny as your "real" suspicions.

And Xinny's point about lowering your scumread on Marth because of the way he claimed and then going after Paper for doing the same is a good one as well. What makes his logic weak when you cited the same?

[Strege]

Okay, I actually missed you defending Baldrick, so I'll take that first paragraph back. But with Objection, yes, getting out an opinion about the major wagons is good. But if you only find them very slightly scummy, why say you'd prefer their lynch? I know you say that you might have jumped the gun there, but it feels like you were pushing his lynch forward even though you were saying he wasn't that scummy.

Prefer over Bluedoom, not over Proto, because people were just pushing Objection and Bluedoom and it didn't seem to be slowing down. I should have said "I am more suspicious of" rather than "I would prefer the lynch of", because of the very reason you're pushing me on, but from the townie speaker's perspective there isn't a difference in meaning. I think this is a weak semantic argument.

As for the second part of my last sentence, I don't see how it's inaccurate. You yourself say in your immediately preceding sentence that your top read at the time was Proto and you were pushing that. And then you were pushing Xinny later. Neither of those two were main wagons. How were you not pushing someone separate? You were pushing forward the Objection wagon while holding Proto and then Xinny as your "real" suspicions.

I said the second part was "fairly accurate" -- excuse the reversed placements for style that I think you've misread -- because to say I'm *pushing* completely separate people implies that I'm not pushing the main wagons, and I did push Objection and Bluedoom despite them not being my main scumreads. As I think you've misread my statement, let me know if I've failed to explain something here.

And Xinny's point about lowering your scumread on Marth because of the way he claimed and then going after Paper for doing the same is a good one as well. What makes his logic weak when you cited the same?

My logic was bad, someone (I think you?) pointed out that the claim doesn't tell us anything, and when Paperblade brought it up again I offered my opinion. My issue with Paperblade seemingly defending Bluedoom was based on tone with regard to saying (paraphrased) "that doesn't mean he's scum, he could just be dumb" (true, null, etc.) and saying (paraphrased, sorry I'm lazy and am not linking to the post) "I don't really see the Bluedoom lynch" without being specific or looking back at people's actual criticisms.

Also, because I forgot it in my last post, @Proto I was asking about town/mafia numbers because I was curious and I figured it could factor into discussion down the road, and because it is somewhat relevant to my role.

[Strege]

Also meant to say I'm about to read Xinnidy's post on me, and then get to scumhunting cause yeah.

[Xinnidy]

Forgive me if you mentioned it before and I totally missed it, but with your recent answer to why you find paper scummy in mind, what do you think of the Cam/ZM slot?

[Paperblade]

I still don't really see the Marth case. Pretty much every criticism against him could just be him being stupid, but then he's done things that I think are much more likely town than scum.

[BBM]

man I hate stupid people

Okay, yeah, I misread that sentence. But it still felt like you were pushing forward at least the Objection wagon despite not finding him scummy, which might be a semantic difference from what you say you meant, but an important one.

Going through more of your posts, if you didn't really think that what I'd done was scummy, or that I should have hidden it, why did you spend so long on D1 questioning me about my motives?

[Strege]

Up there I meant to address the following comment to Paperblade, not Proto: "I was asking about town/mafia numbers because I was curious and I figured it could factor into discussion down the road, and because it is somewhat relevant to my role."

- Strege:



-- I really don't know how to answer with 100% precision without going for one heck of a self-read that I don't feel like at all, but I generally vote people when I feel I am ok with lynching them at said moment. Of course, I keep asking questions and renewing opinions to convict my beliefs or not. And the only one who didn't really answer and rolled silent to his lynch was blitz. :/
I also stand by my opinion that it's just much easier to express through when I'm being addressed, be it a fault or not.

I can understand that, especially the bit about it being easier to respond to someone, but from my perspective I still don't know where you were at exactly on Objection (and I can't hold you accountable to a read, now) and you saying "I am now kind of lacking in leads and reads terribly" at the end of this post could be on of many decent scum excuses for backing off on Bluedoom (i.e. never being a very confident in scumreading him to begin with).

For explanation purposes:

--The sentence meant I didn't find SB's proto vote to be solid because he didn't explain it enough. Admittedly, I had misrepped him for missing one of his posts.
And yes my wording can be pretty terrible/engrish at times, at least it only took you 4 reads. ^^;

My bad about the rereads. As evidenced by the top of this post I am slowly becoming less literate over the course of this game.

--Onto an actually read, I see a bit of inconsistency from here to here, if you're inclined to believe that Marth is more townie due to his claim and way he did, then when Paperblade calls for it you suddenly start bringing reasons for how Marth could be anti-town and pull that stuff, completely shoving paperblade's logic out of the water, and then using it to vote paper while never really giving another opinion about Bluedoom about it except a nullread?

I address this in my response to BBM (sorry, his post was shorter and in response to my most recent post).

I can see your point about why Objection's card may not be conclusive, though I reckon you know it's kind of a stretch. And, considering there seems to be no knowledge of a new card swap today, and Objection claiming his new card was more useful than his old one, wouldn't it be more likely if Marth tried to swap again, for more info and a better card? And again, you're using it just as a way to read not Marth himself, but Paper's defence on him as 'weak', when I hope you're aware your logic takes some leaps to justify.
With this in mind, your current logic and reason for the change of stances on Marth looks the most suspect to me at face value.

I still don't really appreciate the strength of that card. For scum, it's a get-out-of-jail-free card that works exactly once and then gets them vig'd. I don't really see it as a stretch either -- Bluedoom said he traded BT and Objection after BT died. What I'm wondering is why Bluedoom was just swapping random townies, if he was, since any good to come from that is random and it seems like he could benefit scum just as easily. I'm not reading Bluedoom 'cause I was on my phone and couldn't dig into the ISO.

Forgive me if you mentioned it before and I totally missed it, but with your recent answer to why you find paper scummy in mind, what do you think of the Cam/ZM slot?

I am super behind in the thread and really don't remember that slot. I'll make that ISO my next destination. (As soon as I respond to BBM, sigh...)