SSB4: SSB for Wii U and 3DS, maybe the NX and also your toaster!

[HK Motendra]

That's weird. I mean, I do kind of prefer Roy myself because flaming sword, but so many people voiced disappointment that Lucina was a clone. Roy was one too. Why are people so hypocritical? They love Roy despite that he's a clone, but whine about Lucina because she's a clone?

Difference: Roy actually had some differentiation from Marth, unlike Lucy, whose even more of a clone than he was; both playstyle and character-wise. That, along with Roy's potential to be decloned, like the rest of the melee clones that made it into Brawl had.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Bacon

[Jave]

I meant from myself. I'm surprised to hear that there isn't more disappointment than excitement overall though. I thought Roy was generally hated. Smash fans always complained about clones, and FE fans always complain about his bad stats and stuff. Only Japan likes him for some reason.

When you're is Smash, there's always going to be people who want you back, and Roy's fanbase is pretty big.

It also needs to be noted that the people who are actively AGAINST the inclusion of a character aren't that many. Some of them are pretty loud, but the majority of people who don't support a character usually adopt a "Sure, why not" stance on it. Others who are disappointed by an inclusion at first eventually grow to accept the character. Heck, personal experience here, but I was quite disappointed that the last character in Brawl was Wolf, but he ended up becoming one of my mains.

That's weird. I mean, I do kind of prefer Roy myself because flaming sword, but so many people voiced disappointment that Lucina was a clone. Roy was one too. Why are people so hypocritical? They love Roy despite that he's a clone, but whine about Lucina because she's a clone?

Bear in mind, the people who love Roy aren't necessarily the same people hating on Lucy.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Jave

[Anacybele]

Well yeah, I know that every character will have fans, I just thought Roy's fanbase was very small. I never really did see his appeal at all though, other than a cool flaming sword. He doesn't even look that cool, imo.

And personally, I'm against his inclusion. I feel we have enough FE sword wielders now and that the next new FE rep should be someone more unique. So people will just have to deal with that.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Anacybele

[Jotari]

People were introduced to Roy and Marth at basically the same time so he seemed like less a clone. Sure the two characters were similar but the point of who cloned who was kind of moot since we got them both at about the same time in game. Marth stole Roy's forward smash from his own game and Roy took his up smash from Marth's game. Their movesets were pretty much co-developed.

[Raven]

Roy's fanbase is by no means small. So many people were happy as fuck to see Roy being included into Project M. It will be much the same if/when it happens in SSB4.

[HK Motendra]

To be honest with you, I don't really see FE getting another fighter for some time, if at all. You can only do so much with a medeival era, after all, and what we've got pretty much wraps it up well, unless FE brought a whole new mechanic in a future game. Putting Roy back, is literally the same reasoning for having the 3 extra clone characters: "why not?". Add that with veteran status, and there really aint much to say no to. Tho if he was never put in with Marth in Melee, then by all means keep him out.

Him aside, I do hope they plan to just bring everyone back. Ice Climbers in particular, for having should have been in to begin with. Me no like exclusions ]:

[Jotari]

To be honest with you, I don't really see FE getting another fighter for some time, if at all. You can only do so much with a medeival era, after all, and what we've got pretty much wraps it up well, unless FE brought a whole new mechanic in a future game. Putting Roy back, is literally the same reasoning for having the 3 extra clone characters: "why not?". Add that with veteran status, and there really aint much to say no to. Tho if he was never put in with Marth in Melee, then by all means keep him out.

Him aside, I do hope they plan to just bring everyone back. Ice Climbers in particular, for having should have been in to begin with. Me no like exclusions ]:

True there's so much you can do with the medevial era. And Fire Emblem in smash does approximately two things. Swords and magic. Fire Emblem already has axes, lances, mounted units, transforming units, flying units, heavy armors, healers etc. Also a lot more you could do with magic. I don't see Fire Emblem getting many more characters in the future because of roster balance, it's potential is far from lacking.

[Jedi]

Well yeah, I know that every character will have fans, I just thought Roy's fanbase was very small. I never really did see his appeal at all though, other than a cool flaming sword. He doesn't even look that cool, imo.

Not even the slightest bit small.

You have most of Japan, who finds him to be one of their personal favorite lords (he even won their FE6 character poll, which lords tend to do well in but not win very often)

Then you have his western fans who got introduced with Melee, not to mention the surge of more fans since Project M added him back as a favor (decloing him in the process) along with the other fan favorite Melee character Mewtwo.

[Florete]

Difference: Roy actually had some differentiation from Marth, unlike Lucy, whose even more of a clone than he was; both playstyle and character-wise. That, along with Roy's potential to be decloned, like the rest of the melee clones that made it into Brawl had.

It's in different ways, but when it comes down to it, Roy and Lucina are actually about the same level of clone in Smash. How can you say Roy "actually had some differentiation from Marth" when Lucina's difference (even damage across the blade) is arguably much more easily noticeable?

[Jotari]

It's in different ways, but when it comes down to it, Roy and Lucina are actually about the same level of clone in Smash. How can you say Roy "actually had some differentiation from Marth" when Lucina's difference (even damage across the blade) is arguably much more easily noticeable?

It's not as easy to notice because Roy has red hair and fire. I'm not joking, even if he's more similar in terms of gameplay, the visual difference is something people pick up on. It's the same phenomenon that makes people say Wolf is a Fox clone because his specials look visually similar.

[Florete]

It's not as easy to notice because Roy has red hair and fire. I'm not joking, even if he's more similar in terms of gameplay, the visual difference is something people pick up on. It's the same phenomenon that makes people say Wolf is a Fox clone because his specials look visually similar.

You make a good point. Both cases where the characters may seem similar at first glance and you have to actually play them for more than a minute to notice the difference.

[Comet]

It's in different ways, but when it comes down to it, Roy and Lucina are actually about the same level of clone in Smash. How can you say Roy "actually had some differentiation from Marth" when Lucina's difference (even damage across the blade) is arguably much more easily noticeable?

well, if you only look at what makes marth and lucy different in smash 4, you could argue that. ...the only problem is that there's more to roy than the blade differences.

casual roy main: F SMASH IS GODLIKE

casual lucina main: i guess i'll use f smash at around 120%

there's also the fact that his attacks have different knockback angles, knockback growth, and base knockback (lucina has this too, but it's much more aligned with marth). casuals may not notice this as much with most moves, but some are obvious like the mentioned f smash and down tilt as well. amd roy falls like a brick. the whole idea of "you have to be close to do real damage" is also different from lucina's ideology of "spacing is less important."

Edited May 11, 2015 by Comet

[HK Motendra]

It's in different ways, but when it comes down to it, Roy and Lucina are actually about the same level of clone in Smash. How can you say Roy "actually had some differentiation from Marth" when Lucina's difference (even damage across the blade) is arguably much more easily noticeable?

Roy was a Marth with a modified sweetspot, different stats all around (in both offense and mobility), and fire element to some of his attacks. Aside from taunts, counter and victory dance, the only thing the two of them shared were animations.

Lucina is literally everything Marth has (save for taunts, victory dance and a slight[/] few tweaked animations [sheild Breaker & Counter]), if he never had a sweet spot, and being a woman.

Am I missing something here? Do correct me if I'm wrong

Edit: wow, late

Edited May 11, 2015 by Bacon

[Comet]

Roy was a Marth with a modified sweetspot, different stats all around (in both offense and mobility), and fire element to some of his attacks. Aside from taunts, counter and victory dance, the only thing the two of them shared were animations.

Lucina is literally everything Marth has (save for taunts, victory dance and a slight[/] few tweaked animations [sheild Breaker & Counter]), if he never had a sweet spot, and being a woman.

Am I missing something here? Do correct me if I'm wrong

Edit: wow, late

roy's counter is actually much than marth's. from memory, it has less frames that it's able to counter, and i think it has a bit more cooldown but that might not be true. however roy's counter benefits from having 1.5x knockback. it also has the fire element, but i'm pretty sure the element as a whole doesn't matter at all (aside from brawl where fire damages ivysaur more and squirtle less). the electric affinity at least gives the cool effect of having 1.5x shieldstun and normal stun. roy's dancing blade is also way better than marth's in terms of frame data and combo ability into the other hits and combo ability in general. these (likely) aren't things that you'd notice on a casual level, but they're there.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Comet

[Florete]

casual roy main: F SMASH IS GODLIKE

casual lucina main: i guess i'll use f smash at around 120%

For one, this can at least partially be attributed to mechanical differences in the games. For two, I've killed with Lucina's f smash at 80%. But I guess you can wait until 120% if you're trying to kill across the stage.

Roy was a Marth with a modified sweetspot, different stats all around (in both offense and mobility), and fire element to some of his attacks. Aside from taunts, counter and victory dance, the only thing the two of them shared were animations.

Lucina is literally everything Marth has (save for taunts, victory dance and a slight[/] few tweaked animations [sheild Breaker & Counter]), if he never had a sweet spot, and being a woman.

Am I missing something here? Do correct me if I'm wrong

Edit: wow, late

Yes. Every single one of Lucina's attacks acts differently from Marth's. Roy's weight and falling speed may be different from Marth's, but it's only to a very slight degree.

The only things Lucina shares with Marth are attack animations, height, weight, and falling speed. Personally, I find Lucina's differences from Marth more notable than just having a few altered stats and a fire effect that doesn't actually do anything except look cool. Visuals aside, it's harder to tell the difference between Marth and Roy than Marth and Lucina.

[Jotari]

roy's counter is actually much than marth's. from memory, it has less frames that it's able to counter, and i think it has a bit more cooldown but that might not be true. however roy's counter benefits from having 1.5x knockback. it also has the fire element, but i'm pretty sure the element as a whole doesn't matter at all (aside from brawl where fire damages ivysaur more and squirtle less). the electric affinity at least gives the cool effect of having 1.5x shieldstun and normal stun. roy's dancing blade is also way better than marth's in terms of frame data and combo ability into the other hits and combo ability in general. these (likely) aren't things that you'd notice on a casual level, but they're there.

I think Roy's enhanced risk reward counter is noticable in casual play, compared to at Melee at least. Now it'd probably be a lot similar since Marth's counter has been made a killing move and still comes out faster making it just overall better than Roy's unless they do something different with it.

[HK Motendra]

For one, this can at least partially be attributed to mechanical differences in the games. For two, I've killed with Lucina's f smash at 80%. But I guess you can wait until 120% if you're trying to kill across the stage. Yes. Every single one of Lucina's attacks acts differently from Marth's. Roy's weight and falling speed may be different from Marth's, but it's only to a very slight degree.The only things Lucina shares with Marth are attack animations, height, weight, and falling speed. Personally, I find Lucina's differences from Marth more notable than just having a few altered stats and a fire effect that doesn't actually do anything except look cool. Visuals aside, it's harder to tell the difference between Marth and Roy than Marth and Lucina.

You certain about that? From my own experience, its the other way around, tbh. EX:

-Roy's U Smash is a multi hit move

-Roy only has one jab.

-Roy's air game is relatively weak, in comparison to being on ground, and cannot Meteor with d air (if he can, I've never seen it ever executed)

-Flare Blade one hit KOs

-The 3rd swing of Side B is also multi hit, and cannot transition into a 4th swing.

-Up B is, as well, a multi hit move

Those are just ones off the top of my head, but I remember them as clear as day

[Florete]

And for the most part, I don't think those differences are as easily noticeable except the neutral B. Yes, he has differences, and I did say that Roy and Lucina are about the same level of clone. Lucina's difference can largely be summed up in one sentence (iirc there are actually some other small things, but they're more in-depth than I care to worry about right now), but it really makes a big difference. And that's all I'm saying.

[Comet]

For one, this can at least partially be attributed to mechanical differences in the games. For two, I've killed with Lucina's f smash at 80%. But I guess you can wait until 120% if you're trying to kill across the stage.

knockback and knockback growth aren't mechanical differences. the only significant difference that can be noted is the way sakurai balanced the games, but that isn't particularly relevant since we're just looking at gameplay differences. anyway, i decided to find the ratios of the knockback differences for the f smashes of marth/roy and marth/lucina (partly for my own enlightenment ).

[spoiler=knockback calculations]

m4rth NON TIPPER against 0% mii: 80.32

m4rth NON TIPPER against 100% mii: 164.32

m4rth TIPPER against 0% mii: 114.56

m4rth TIPPER against 100% mii: 226.56

lucina against 0% mii: 93.68

lucina against 100% mii: 188.88

melee marth against 0% mario: 114.16

melee marth against 100% mario: 221.96

roy against 0% mario: 111.72

roy against 100% mario: 211.82

i'm not going to bother with the non tipper since i'm pretty sure we can all agree that roy's is trash

also too lazy to do more lol

mario's weight in the NTSC version of melee is 100, and default mii's weight is 100, so the knockback comparisons aren't skewed. all of these also assume that the f smashes are completely fresh.

if this matters at all, roy's moves generally have more cooldown and startup than marth's.

w/e, if you think that roy/lucina are at the same level to each other clone-wise, you're entitled to your opinion. i just think that the present differences as well as changes to the movement of the character itself make roy less of a clone than lucina.

[Jedi]

^ You also forget that Roy's air moves have almost no knockback and that his dtilt actually lifts people into the air to juggle.

[Florete]

knockback and knockback growth aren't mechanical differences. the only significant difference that can be noted is the way sakurai balanced the games, but that isn't particularly relevant since we're just looking at gameplay differences.

You said "casual lucina main: i guess i'll use f smash at around 120%." It's a known fact that killing takes longer in Smash 4 than in Melee, so exact percentages are not a good way to compare. Maybe not "mechanical," but whatever term you want to use, it's about the difference between games. Rage is also a thing in Smash 4.

And, like, it doesn't even really have anything to do with Roy or Lucina being more or less a clone than the other in the first place. In both cases, the attack only has statistical changes.

[Jotari]

You said "casual lucina main: i guess i'll use f smash at around 120%." It's a known fact that killing takes longer in Smash 4 than in Melee, so exact percentages are not a good way to compare. Maybe not "mechanical," but whatever term you want to use, it's about the difference between games. Rage is also a thing in Smash 4.

And, like, it doesn't even really have anything to do with Roy or Lucina being more or less a clone than the other in the first place. In both cases, the attack only has statistical changes.

Statistical changes can go along way. Take Falcon and Ganondorf's down aerials for examles. Sure they're both stomping attacks but the way in which they're used is completely different.

[Sentacotus]

While we are on the subject of Lucina and Marth I found this pretty funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1stzC4Kh-CY&spfreload=10

[Florete]

While we are on the subject of Lucina and Marth I found this pretty funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1stzC4Kh-CY&spfreload=10

This is what happens when Sully is Lucina's mother.

Hopefully one day people will be able to hack the Wii U and replace Lucina's original lines in Smash with Laura Bailey's Saints Row 3/4 lines.

[Sentacotus]

This is what happens when Sully is Lucina's mother.

Hopefully one day people will be able to hack the Wii U and replace Lucina's original lines in Smash with Laura Bailey's Saints Row 3/4 lines.

Hahaha we can only wish someday. I'd kill to see that.