Making archers better

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

fe5 did not have archer

only mage

and glade and othin's +10 eva +10 crt +10hit skill

[Anouleth]

Archers were always going to be weak in this game because the focus on enemy phase is so strong. For what it's worth, Archers are actually very strong in Lunatic+ where enemy phase is less important. Shifting that focus is the only good way to "fix" Archers.

[Shadow Mir]

Archers were always going to be weak in this game because the focus on enemy phase is so strong.

Isn't that the case with most FEs though...?

[Shin]

Generally, if they had Myrm or Merc like bases, they'd probably be OK. Wolt's growths are on par with Alan and Lance, but his bases are just so bad he can never work himself out of that rut. Some bro promotion gains might be worth it too, considering that other classes start getting decent 1-2 range.

[riariadne]

Isn't that the case with most FEs though...?

Which is precisely why archers are awful in most FEs. Awakening is no exception.

[Shadow Mir]

Which is precisely why archers are awful in most FEs. Awakening is no exception.

Indeed - 6 and 12 (and 11 to some extent) are the only ones where this doesn't apply.

[General Horace]

ironically bowusers are always better in harder difficulty modes

however bowusers aren't archers, who are always terrible because of horrid bases (especially speed) and sometimes even movement.

I think they'd have a niche if they had +1 movement over other foot classes, and actually had some sembalance of offence. Snipers are usually not too bad.

[Jotari]

Yeah Galeforce really would have worked on them. I guess they just wanted it to be a female only class though to make females even more uber.

[Generic General]

Attack range +1 skill after promotion.

[Djing]

Switch Bow Knight skills with Dark Flier skills.

Archer is now a worthwhile class to have.

Have Virion start with a steel or silver bow.

Add a C- rank brave bow like weapon akin to Erika's Blade and Celica's Gale. (Shinon's Bow?)

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Well, I guess I can say that anybody who wants to see how I'd balance archers can just look at my balance patch for FE8 (since I am its creator and I am aiming for what I believe is balance, this makes sense, I guess), and I think it works out quite well. But to point it out in a few bullet points:

A) Archers should exist as the counterpoint to keep flying units in check, and have enemies have enough (and strong enough) fliers to make this important. Archers are a great tool to keep flying units (on both sides) in check without forcing fliers to have shitty combat to counter their inherent utility (or risk going Jill/Haar mode if no such limitation exists). Ideally, you would want 1-2 archers in a team, much like you'd want 1-2 healers, 1-2 mages, a few melee units, cavs, etc.

B) In general, bows should have better stats than lances/swords/axes to counter their inherent 2 range only restriction. I have bows with the MT of axes and and Hit of swords, defining them as a dominant weapon in PP and near useless in EP. This allows ALL classes that have bows as a primary secondary weapon to have a legitimate reason to use them.

C) Archers and snipers should have the worst or near worst defensive stats in the game, but have the best overall offensive stats, to solidify their PP. People accuse my balancing of homogenizing, but with archers, you need to MAKE THEM AS DISTINCT AS POSSIBLE. Bows, by their nature, are PP weapons; the unit that specializes in them should be the same. Archers are all about chip/finishing off, so make archers have high STR/SPD and massive SKL (have one archer focus most on SPD and the other most on STR, for example, with both having massive SKL). Snipers having bonus crit is also a no-brainer here. Archers/snipers should be feared when they attack, but easy as hell to shut down if exposed.

D) Nomads should have a similar design as C, but not as extreme -- i.e., they focus on offense over defense, but still have decent to mediocre defense, since they DO have to utilize swords and deal with counters to make full use of their kit.

E) Longbows should be for everybody, imo. They should be 2-3 range and considered the javelins of bows, with a MT/Hit penalty applied accordingly.

EDIT: Also, Wil craps all over Virion in usefulness. Wil doesn't get doubled (his only problem is doubling later in the game than Beccy does if used, but with the benefit of hitting harder than her and using the Brave Bow to good effect) like Virion can, he has all of Lyn (training dummy) mode to raise past his low bases (I'd hardly call the beginning of FE13 the same thing), and both can be just as useful if trained.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Djing]

Having high defense actually works to the Archer/Sniper's favor since enemies always go for the most damage in this game.

The high defense bonus and caps function as a makeshift Shade skill.

[Vorena]

Here is my random idea for a balance of archers themselves in FE as a whole and not just FE13.

Archers by military regulation in history I believe have been supplied with a small knife or sword for close-quarters combat. Allow the archer class access to both bow and sword in the unpromoted class. At promotion, the Sniper class is so proficient with their talents that they have a Skill that will allow them to auto-equip to a sword or bow during the enemy phase in order to counter attack.

The balance of this is that other classes like the Nomad/Bow Knight in other FE games have access to Movement, Con., and Rescue which give them a unique niche as does this unique Sniper niche. Other classes that have access to bow will not get this affect because they have other unique skills as well. Additionally, they typically have access to weapons which are better than bows anyway like 1-2 range javelin, hand axes, etc.

In Short.

Archer: Sword & Bow ability.

Sniper: Skill Auto-Equip sword or bow when targeted by an enemy during enemy phase.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Vorena

[BlueFire]

I don't think they should have all of the aforementioned suggestions, but having a top-notch skill and RD Marksman 3-range greatly help put them on par.

[Shadow Mir]

E) Longbows should be for everybody, imo. They should be 2-3 range and considered the javelins of bows, with a MT/Hit penalty applied accordingly.

That was done in Radiant Dawn, but it failed miserably at making them worth using because the accuracy penalty at 3 range was too great.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Vorena]

The biggest flaw is still the enemy/player phase problem. Bow will always be a less superior weapon in a game that is filled with 1-2 range or 1 range enemies. You get so much more mileage out of a Warrior using an iron axe than you do a bow in most situations. Any class that can dual with at least something else I think are fine. Horsed units with sword/bow are still decent because they have 2 weapon access and movement.

Any unit with bow lock won't really be "fixed" and on par with the others unless its gets a unique niche to overcome the 2 range lock problem. Increasing from 2-3 I do not think is unique enough to overcome the problem of being able to only contribute one battle at a time typically.

[Byte2222]

From what others have discussed, think that the changes needed are skills and stats. I think an excellent skill for archers would be a skill which doubles exp gain if the enemy is not defeated, hence allowing them to subsist on chips and keep pace with the rest of the team. It also produces a counterpart skill which gives an exp boost if the enemy is defeated, which might replace patience or something. The chips themselves need to be more useful and I think archers need a power boost, either from a higher strength base or by buffing bows' might. IRL, arrows could penetrate plate armour, why can enemy units shrug off 2 of them? The point of an archer in a small team is that they're cumbersome but powerful, needing only one shot; FE archers have the cumbersome part but lack power. Snipers are generally a lot better but I agree that they'd probably get the most out of galeforce (if it stays in after FE13, it's so broken and being in the sniper class would only make it more so). IS just needs to remember that archers do everything on PP and that they need power, not more accuracy.

Changing archers' range doesn't really fix the problem and just makes things harder for the player. If they get 1-2 range it kinda defeats the point of an archer and extended range very quickly makes things really hard for the player without really making it any easier for player archers. Having played FE2 I can confirm that very long range helps the enemy at least as much as the player.

In FE13, I used Virion for a few maps, dropped him, then un-benched him for chapter 5 when I had trouble with wyvern riders and he could easily deal with them using a steel bow. The presence of fliers among the enemy is a great boon for archers but archers are necessary because fliers are so annoying, so they can't be around all game. Maybe if the obligatory earlygame archer came with a steel bow (and the appropriate level and bases for it to fit in-world) and there were fliers around for as long as it takes for the class to learn its second skill (which might be the 'bonus exp for chipping' skill). That might actually make for a pretty kickass archer.

[C.C.]

I'm a newb to Fire Emblem with 13 being my first one, but I think Archers would be better if they could carry daggers as well. Yes, this would introduce daggers, but only for them (at least for now). They'd also get a skill that when they're attacked at close range, they will respond with their dagger instead of just standing there holding their bow.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

That was done in Radiant Dawn, but it failed miserably at making them worth using because the accuracy penalty at 3 range was too great.

That's because they went overboard on the accuracy ding. I mean, I'm imaging javelins being around 70 hit and longbows being around 70-75 hit here, not like 55-65 hit. Enough to make them situational, but not useless.

[Usana]

My idea is likely way over powered. But I would give the archer class an abilty to replace Skill+2 or Prescience.

First I would give them the ability to give support fire to any ally in range(skl chance or some such). So say an enemy attacks Chrom who is in Virion's Range. If Virion's skill proc'ed he would shot an arrow at the enemy(most likely at reduced accuracy for balance purposes, like say -20) before the enemy gets to land a blow on Chrom. This shores up their enemy phase strength by making them very valuable for your front line units. They are still horrifically vulnerable if the enemy can reach them, however. It would also be a drawback in the fact that they could very quickly become xp hogs if they did too much damage. However, balancing of bow/unit strength could help there. Basically I see them as 'super chipers'. So letting them fire in support of allied attack and defense lets them chip far more often which would make them much more useful.

For Bow Knight I would replace Rally Skill with an ability to defend with their sword in melee range or with their bow if the enemy targest them at range while they have a sword equiped(at reduced hit to convery the fact that they had to quick draw). Once again it would likely have skill% or such of activating. Or maybe if not unbalanced it could always activate like counter does.

Sniper gets all that extra hit which would mostly or completely negate the reduced accuracy to support fire. Plus extra strength when using a bow. Possibly they wouldn't need much change.

[Vapo]

I'd swap Bow Knight and Dark Flier skills, and give the counter at 1 range thing by also giving them another weapon, personally. 2-4 range doesn't mean anything when it's only for the player phase and for one attack.

[singularity]

Give them better skills, like replace Hit +20 with Sure Strike(adds 25% of Hit to your Attack, Skl%).

Bow Knight and Dark Flier swapping skills would be interesting...

Galeforce Chrom. That is all.

[Inference]

Radiant Dawn was onto something. Crossbows, crit, and 2-3 innate range after promotion need to come back.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Inference

[Thor Odinson]

Balance the gameplay so player phase matters more, and add more flying enemies that only archers can reliably kill. I'd even take out wind magic against fliers, as far as FE13 goes magic is OP enough as is and could do with a nerf. Give archers stats (mainly bases) that don't suck. Make their player phase really count for something.

FE12, especially Lunatic, did it really well with Snipers. If I wanted to give favourtism to a less-optimal character (in my case, Navarre), reclass to Sniper and slap a Steel Forge pretending to be a Silver bow and they're working wonders.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Thor Odinson

[Shadow Mir]

Radiant Dawn was onto something. Crossbows, crit, and 2-3 innate range after promotion need to come back.

The last one would help, but the other two... iono, crossbows were generally ineffective in Dawn except in certain situations and for disarming shenanigans, and crit may or may not be that big of a difference maker (it certainly wasn't in RD, that's for sure).