Making archers better

[Espinosa]

With some map variety and tougher enemies, bow users become good enough. By 'bow users' I mean Dagda and Innes rather than Tania and Neimi, though. An early bow-wielding prepromote can fill all sorts of niche roles.

[Sasori]

I really liked the way fe12 handled archers. Enemies where actually threatening enough to make chipping usefull, there where a lot of fliers, particularly those annoying 12 move wyverns and they faced less competition from mages since those weren't that great either. The 5 move was very annoying though.

That and they had extremely sexy promotion gains. Who can say no to 8 hp, 2 strength, 5 skill and speed, 3 resistence and 2 move.

Awakening was a huge step back for archers and the garbage skills they got really did't help their case. Who in their right mind decided that giving the most accurate class in the game even more accuracy was a good idea?

[Constable Reggie]

With some map variety and tougher enemies, bow users become good enough. By 'bow users' I mean Dagda and Innes rather than Tania and Neimi, though. An early bow-wielding prepromote can fill all sorts of niche roles.

I remember Raquel from Tearring Saga being quite useful for being practically invincible while weakening enemies earlygame for my other units (having a master bow so early in the game was also pretty bro). A bow user like her would be pretty good in a FE game, but not to broken levels of good like Dagda was, I dunno.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Jotari]

The last one would help, but the other two... iono, crossbows were generally ineffective in Dawn except in certain situations and for disarming shenanigans, and crit may or may not be that big of a difference maker (it certainly wasn't in RD, that's for sure).

Crossbows failed greatly in Radiant Dawn that is true but it still doesn't mean it was a bad idea. It could be improved very easily. The main problem with crossbows is that they didn't take into account strength so the damage never scaled and quickly became useless. If the weapons took into account weapon rank and transferred it to strength then crossbows could be very effective weapons that don't quickly get outclassed. Just because crossbows were bad doesn't mean they weren't on the right track.

( did I just make a triple negative? Eh screw grammar that was the easiest way to get my point across.)

Edited June 23, 2013 by Jotari

[CT075]

BwdYeti's FE7x has the effect of bows having WTA over everything at 2 range but face WTD at 1 range (so they get full WTA bonuses while attacking but if they get attacked on enemy phase then the enemy gets a free +15 or whatever hit) and iirc it worked pretty well. I'm working on porting this to the GBA games to see if it would work there too

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

What make Dagda good as an Archer >_>

Because honestly, I rather slap a Brave Axe on him and call it a day

IMO the best Archer I ever used was FE12 Minerva

[Espinosa]

I remember Raquel from Tearring Saga being quite useful for being practically invincible while weakening enemies earlygame for my other units (having a master bow so early in the game was also pretty bro). A bow user like her would be pretty good in a FE game, but not to broken levels of good like Dagda was, I dunno.

tbqh 24HP/7 def isn't too hot in TRS, but yeah, having a character who can easily reduce an enemy to 1 HP with the Brave Bow is highly useful before that character turns into a ORKO-machine himself.

[Shadow Mir]

Crossbows failed greatly in Radiant Dawn that is true but it still doesn't mean it was a bad idea. It could be improved very easily. The main problem with crossbows is that they didn't take into account strength so the damage never scaled and quickly became useless. If the weapons took into account weapon rank and transferred it to strength then crossbows could be very effective weapons that don't quickly get outclassed. Just because crossbows were bad doesn't mean they weren't on the right track.

( did I just make a triple negative? Eh screw grammar that was the easiest way to get my point across.)

Well, either way, crossbows sucking in RD doesn't exactly leave me with high expectations for them in future FE games.

[The Void]

1. Give Virion higher bases.

2. Make bows do more damage.

4. Nerf or get rid of wind magic.

There you go.

Edited June 23, 2013 by The Void

[IceBrand]

They could have Crossbows like in RD but stronger.

[Djing]

Give crossbows regular might and attributes, but make them unable to double attack (to simulate the long reload time).

[Melonhead]

Maybe a movement-like range:

Range would be increased to 2-4, but range would be impacted by movement penalties and units, such as a range penalty in forests or not being able to shoot past enemy lines.

I think the only reason Archers are so bad is because they don't have any damage output in the enemy phase. If counter or some sort of Melee weapon access was implemented, they would be better.

[Zerker]

1-2 Range bows.

Shortbows.

God damnit Virion stop being such a pain in the arse to grind

[shadykid]

lvl 1 Archer skill: Galeforce

success, pack it up guys

just kidding, archers tend to suck when 1) enemies can be cleaned up easily with powerhouse units (see: FE13, FE8, FE9, most of the others) and 2) combat is reliant on enemy phase (FE13 again, FE10, blah blah)

about crossbows: the fixed might thing might have worked in a game like FE12 where the highest possible non-HP cap is 30, but obviously in FE10 (and especially FE13 if it existed) it fails horribly

Edited June 24, 2013 by shadykid

[PuffPuff]

Give Archers/Snipers counter, good game.

^This.

Galeforce Chrom. That is all.

Nah, too uberish.

The last one would help, but the other two... iono, crossbows were generally ineffective in Dawn except in certain situations and for disarming shenanigans, and crit may or may not be that big of a difference maker (it certainly wasn't in RD, that's for sure).

Wishing that this game had them.

Crossbows failed greatly in Radiant Dawn that is true but it still doesn't mean it was a bad idea. It could be improved very easily. The main problem with crossbows is that they didn't take into account strength so the damage never scaled and quickly became useless. If the weapons took into account weapon rank and transferred it to strength then crossbows could be very effective weapons that don't quickly get outclassed. Just because crossbows were bad doesn't mean they weren't on the right track.

( did I just make a triple negative? Eh screw grammar that was the easiest way to get my point across.)

FE1(NES) was the only other game to have them.

Well, either way, crossbows sucking in RD doesn't exactly leave me with high expectations for them in future FE games.

Not without forging them. =]

Give them better base SPD. Seriously.

Virion's 5 base SPD doesn't help him out much. Sure, he's off to a better start than archers like Wil, Tomas, and Rolf, but he's still pretty bad.

His awful defenses make it even worse. Without a good support for him, he's toast on Hard and Lunatic.

Well, FE9!Rolf has BEXP access, and of course FE10!Rolf is better. I can see where you're coming from about Wil, since FE7 enemies are weaksauce, and I suppose you're right about FE11(I assume we're talking about this version)!Tomas.

Which Nintendo had to do to get us newcomers adjusted to the series.

Edited June 24, 2013 by 綾波

[The Void]

Archers/Snipers shouldn't get 1-2 range.

They aren't magic users or folks using something like a Javelin.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Every Archer should have 43 HP, 10 Defense, 9 Speed, and 22 STR at base

Edited June 24, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[SB.]

Especially the ones who join in the final chapter.

[Usana]

I had a thought. How about if ground locked melee units couldn't target flyers(after all they can't reach them), though they could still counter if engaged in melee. This would mean that only thrown weapons, magic, and bows would be able to intiate an attack against them. And of them Bows and Wind Magic are the only ones to do bonus damage(though we have the Volant I suppose, but it isn't exactly in shops). For balance reasons perhaps rather than bonus damage make it so that wind magic is the only magic that can target flying units by default, but does regular damage(obviously special variants could have bonus damage).

This would make wyverns terrifying I think. Their defense is high so they fear archers less(though they are hardly fearless), wind magic would no longer do bonus damage, and their attack is high so relying on physical counters isn't exactly a great deal for you. Yeah, that might tip wyverns into the OP zone. At least they are still vulnerable to anti-wrym right? Thinking. . . what happens if you stack anti-wrym and anti-flying into some kind of wrymslayer bow?

Anyways in theory this would make archers far more valuable, but at the same time it would be a huge buff to the flying classes and they already appear to be high ranked classes for the most part.

[Shadow Mir]

Thinking. . . what happens if you stack anti-wrym and anti-flying into some kind of wrymslayer bow?

Judging by how rapiers are treated against Great Knights and the Laguz Bow against transformed bird laguz in PoR, I'd say the effective bonus doesn't stack.

[Jotari]

Archers/Snipers shouldn't get 1-2 range.

They aren't magic users or folks using something like a Javelin.

I think many people support the idea of Archers getting some kind of Short Bow weapon for 1-2 range. Only one weapon. Similar to how other classes have the option of 1-2 range weapons with hand axes and the like but are still primarily 1 range fighters. Archers would still be 2 ranged fighters but would also have a weak weapon for the situations where they need 1 range.

[The Void]

Why bother giving 1-2 range? It's not like Rolf and Leonardo were good units with their access to 1-2 range.

Genealogy of the Holy War and New Mystery of the Emblem had Archers/Snipers who were at least decent. And they certainly didn't have 1-2 range.

[Jotari]

Hey any little addition helps. It certainly won't take away from any usefulness.

[Vashiane]

I had a thought. How about if ground locked melee units couldn't target flyers(after all they can't reach them), though they could still counter if engaged in melee. This would mean that only thrown weapons, magic, and bows would be able to intiate an attack against them. And of them Bows and Wind Magic are the only ones to do bonus damage(though we have the Volant I suppose, but it isn't exactly in shops). For balance reasons perhaps rather than bonus damage make it so that wind magic is the only magic that can target flying units by default, but does regular damage(obviously special variants could have bonus damage).

This would make wyverns terrifying I think. Their defense is high so they fear archers less(though they are hardly fearless), wind magic would no longer do bonus damage, and their attack is high so relying on physical counters isn't exactly a great deal for you. Yeah, that might tip wyverns into the OP zone. At least they are still vulnerable to anti-wrym right? Thinking. . . what happens if you stack anti-wrym and anti-flying into some kind of wrymslayer bow?

Anyways in theory this would make archers far more valuable, but at the same time it would be a huge buff to the flying classes and they already appear to be high ranked classes for the most part.

This... is actually an amazing idea.

Ooh, yes to the wyrmslayer bow. Lancers get Beast Killer, swordsmen have Armorslayer AND Wyrmslayer (and for Chrom and Lucina Rapiers for Beast/Armor damage and Falchion for Wyrm damage), and axes have Volant Axes (rare, but...) and Hammers. Bows have their universal flying unit damage and... that's it.

The only possible downside is that this would make magic flying units the most OP things in existance.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Vashiane

[Inference]

Enemies in Radiant Dawn were too defensive for the way Crossbows were designed in that game. I reckon they'd do well in other games if regular might attributes were applied.

Also, it's been proven that bowmen with good stats can perform well in Fire Emblem, but they're still at an inherent disadvantage from other units and have to work a bit harder to make up for it. FE10 Shinon, for example, had stats that rivaled even Ike's, but was considered 'good' at best, while Ike was 'very good' at the least. Innes joins with a similar situation in FE8, having awesome stats and every right to be a godly unit, but the wrong class in which to use those attributes. Also, in Awakening, Wind tomes were extremely cheap and always available. With a slight forge buff to even its most basic tome, you really don't ever need an archer in that game.

My overall point being, the overall archer class is due a buff as well. I shouldn't have to think twice about my bowman going in to snipe a mage who can retaliate harder and do everything better than the bowman planned to do in the first place. A few 1-range options here or there would even the playing field, and inherent 3-range to avoid counterattacks from mages and throwing weapons would provide a legitimate niche.