Jeigan Quest

[Elieson]

I didn't mean to condemn people that use phones.

I'm sorry I offended you, mister sensitive.

Let me go one step further. The snide remark that I bolded, if omitted, makes the post look like you're interested in earning my "business" (Critique, playtime, interpret "business" as you will.) The inclusion of it, however, makes you look like you don't care about the fact that you posted this for public enjoyment to begin with. Your defenses contradict your apparent "goal" and make you look less compassionate/intelligent, for lack of better terms. I'm not saying you are/aren't, but you aren't presenting yourself well by trying to one-up my "advice" with snippy snark remarks. I would suggest keeping those at a minimum while in any Romhack community, until at least you are well established enough so that the people you interact with don't think less of you when you use them.

Just another suggestion.

Image tags are exceptionally easy to use. Take "img" and "/img" and enclose them in brackets, and stick the URL.jpg inside of them (or alternatively if not using mobile view, click the image button and copy paste the link into the provided text block. It's rather easy to do here, and on most php based forums.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Elieson

[Klokinator]

This is one of the most passive aggressive threads I've ever had the privilege of reading.

[Book of Ereshkigal]

Seriously, lol. Some guy edits some classes and everyone gets all upset XD

[The Iron Rose]

On topic, I actually think this could be a neat concept, if you balanced chapters accordingly. Because you would know to a far greater level what resources the player has (thanks to slow levelling and poor growths), it'd make balancing fun, and give you a good reason to use later units.

Now, I don't think the execution of this hack succeeded in that goal. At all.

But in theory it's a neat idea.

[eCut]

Hopefully this is already settled but I will post anyway:

Guys, relax. You can discuss the hack and the concept without the snarky, passive-aggressive remarks. It's not necessary.

[dondon151]

what

of course i'm right. we've had this discussion before. the irony is that jagen is a better long-term unit than oifaye is, yet their archetypes represent the converse.

only FE12 arran and FE6 marcus really dropped off significantly in their respective games. frederick if you count lunatic mode. but jagen, dagdar, FE7 marcus, seth, and titania are all great throughout the entire game.

[Mysticblade]

The whole point about everyone on your side being pre-promoted and the enemies having to deal with the bases of unpromoted classes is a good point. The easiest way of 'fixing' things would probably be to change all the enemies into prepromo's as well. You'd probably have to change enemy bases and growths but it could make an interesting hack, one more aligned to the earlier, puzzle-like chapters of some FE games if you decided to change enemy formation as well.

On the image topic, clicking links requires extra effort on my part. If you want to sell the hack to us, then you should put in a little more effort into your OP. I hate having to put effort into things, but eh. I'm lazy.

[Refa]

of course i'm right. we've had this discussion before. the irony is that jagen is a better long-term unit than oifaye is, yet their archetypes represent the converse.

only FE12 arran and FE6 marcus really dropped off significantly in their respective games. frederick if you count lunatic mode. but jagen, dagdar, FE7 marcus, seth, and titania are all great throughout the entire game.

FE1 Jeigan drops off just like FE6 Marcus (well, on Normal Mode), and FE3 Jeigan drops off a heck of a lot sooner. I don't get why FE11 Jeigan is great throughout the entire game; sure, he can use effective weaponry, but later on other units can do it a lot better. And his durability isn't particularly great, especially with that 8 speed. People like to make the excuse that Evyal leaving means that she never drops off, but personally I'd rather have an incompetent unit than none at all (so yeah, worst of the lot). Oifaye is a far better long term unit than any of these guys (and FE6 Marcus and FE12 Arran).

And totally semantics, but I don't really think Dagda is a Jeigan, but whatever...he doesn't drop off, like you said. And I agree with you on the rest of those guys.

...But I think archetypes and sub-archetypes are stupid, so what do I know?

Edited June 27, 2013 by Refa

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Jeigan with effective weaponry in original is coming off 22 ATK, against 14 - ish defense and has like.... 6 - 7 AS at base

Also the stats booster in original and 3 is so ridiculous, that Jeigan can take those, and will be able to solo his portion of final level(at least in 1) if you count that for his value

As a comparison, In Shadow Dragon, a +2 Beastbane is 37 ATK(38 with Weapon Rank)

Im not sure about the enemy stats in H5 so, eh..... >_>

Edited June 27, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

fe1!jeigan doesn't even come close (although i'd forgotten fe11 jeigan)

arran is fair

evayle doesn't really count because a) 20 stat caps and scrolls and b) she doesn't exist for over half the game regardless

fe6!marcus isn't really bad and is more mediocre (settles in for being a substandard combat unit for sure but not really a liability)

fe7!marcus isn't even close

Jeigan Rates: 10% in HP, Str, Skl, Spd, 0 in rest, 3% in Res.

Arran Rates: 10% in everything. In FE12, he has 40 in HP, 15 in Str, 25 in skill, 10 in speed and luck, 15 def, and no res.

20 stat caps as a reason for excluding Evayle doesn't matter, since her rates are still abysmal.

Marcus in FE6 Rates: 60 in HP, 25 in Str and spd, 20 in skill, luck, and res, 15 in def.

Marcus in FE7 Rates: 65 hp, 30 in str and luck, 50 in skill, 25 in speed, 15 df and 35 res.

Coupled with their poor starting stats, these units are awful all around.

You think these stats are good? You think these people are good units??

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

They ARE good units

To use one of the weaker examples, FE6 Marcus(AKA Old Marcus) is a good example of a good and well designed units. The game is barely playable if he did not exist

Heck, if you disregard Eyvel, I bring up Dagda and his 15% HP growth, 10% STR, 10% SKL, 10% SPD, 30% LCK, 10% DEF, and 5% BLD

Yet the most common advice to make Thracia 776 easier is, by far "use Dagda"

Edited June 27, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

of course i'm right. we've had this discussion before. the irony is that jagen is a better long-term unit than oifaye is, yet their archetypes represent the converse.

only FE12 arran and FE6 marcus really dropped off significantly in their respective games. frederick if you count lunatic mode. but jagen, dagdar, FE7 marcus, seth, and titania are all great throughout the entire game.

Dagdar is an awful unit, and he should go back to the depths of failure he came from.

Hp - 15%, Str - 10%, Mag - 5%, Skl - 10%. Spd - 10%, Luk - 30%, Def - 10%

Frederick, Seth, and Titania aren't even Jagens

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

You miss the part where Dagda doubled 90% of the enemies in the game, has the second best durability out of any recruitable unit, has 15 Con, has 7 movement, the best archer in the game, a capturing god

If Dagda is terrible, then I don't even want to know the proper term for failure like Misha, Miranda, Kein, Alva, Ronan, Tania etc

[Redwall]

Growth rates aren't everything. FE7 enemies are weak enough to allow Marcus to remain dominant for more or less the whole game, and FE11 enemies tend to be vulnerable to effective weaponry. The labeling of the Jagen/Oifey archetypes as such is a vestige of the outdated school of thought that prizes growth rates above all else. FE12 Arran is indeed a bad unit, but it is not just because of his bad growths; the enemies in FE12 Lunatic are just too strong for him to keep up, while someone like FE7 Marcus can get by on boss kill EXP.

[Baldrick]

Growths aren't everything (this coming from a growths fetishist). Especially in FE5. Dagda's bases are enough that he's never terrible, and he has a genuine niche that can nab him a deployment slot (good at capturing). I'd put him in the same category as Oifaye (whose niche is being mounted in FE4), below Seth, Titania and Young Marcus but above Jeigan, Arran and Old Marcus.

PEDIT: Cut. There's a saying about great minds...

Edited June 27, 2013 by Baldrick

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

Okay, here's the deal. Jeigans are okay in the beginning, right? They turn shitty later on. Later on in the game where you start facing promoted enemies. Enemies that are quite better than the enemies in the beginning. Let's use FE6 Marcus as an example. He's crap. He has the rates of a slug. But his bases are also horrendous. So while he may be good in the beginning, you put him up against enemies LATER on in the game, he is completely worthless.

The chances of him getting perfect level ups all the time are not high at all, so by the time late game comes, he will still have the stats of a 6 cavalier or something. So that destroys Redwall's argument of boss kill EXP, because his level ups are guaranteed to be atrocious.

Good unpromoted Units vs Unpromoted Enemies = somewhat challenging
Jeigans (with the great weapons they usually come with) vs unpromoted enemies = no challenge

Good promoted units vs promoted enemies = little less challenging

Jeigans vs promoted enemies = not going to happen.

[Refa]

Jeigan with effective weaponry in original is coming off 22 ATK, against 14 - ish defense and has like.... 6 - 7 AS at base

Also the stats booster in original and 3 is so ridiculous, that Jeigan can take those, and will be able to solo his portion of final level(at least in 1) if you count that for his value

As a comparison, In Shadow Dragon, a +2 Beastbane is 37 ATK(38 with Weapon Rank)

Im not sure about the enemy stats in H5 so, eh..... >_>

Original Jeigan is the best of the Jeigans that aren't ridiculous (he has much less AS with Knight Killer at 3, but 6 with Armor Killer ain't bad), but even he slows down quite a bit. There just is a point around mid game where you can go without him and be perfectly fine. Probably because that's when he becomes a lot less useful. Also, you can give those ridiculous statboosters to anyone, so it's not really a point in Jeigan's favor. And you'd have to give a heckuva lot of them to Jeigan in FE3 to make up for his absolutely horrendous dismounted bases (they're WORSE than Machis'...he can't even double without Iron...so bad.), but I digress. It doesn't even help make the game any easier if you give the statboosters to Jeigan (even in 0% growths, there are better choices), so using that as an excuse for his continued relevance is as silly as me proclaiming Machis is a top tier unit who can wield Silver Lances at base and be used all game.

I'm sure Jeigan's offense is hella good with effective weaponry, there just comes a point where his awesome prepromo'dness isn't enough for him to be worth deploying.

Jeigan Rates: 10% in HP, Str, Skl, Spd, 0 in rest, 3% in Res.

Arran Rates: 10% in everything. In FE12, he has 40 in HP, 15 in Str, 25 in skill, 10 in speed and luck, 15 def, and no res.

20 stat caps as a reason for excluding Evayle doesn't matter, since her rates are still abysmal.

Marcus in FE6 Rates: 60 in HP, 25 in Str and spd, 20 in skill, luck, and res, 15 in def.

Marcus in FE7 Rates: 65 hp, 30 in str and luck, 50 in skill, 25 in speed, 15 df and 35 res.

Coupled with their poor starting stats, these units are awful all around.

You think these stats are good? You think these people are good units??

I think Jeigan, Marcus, and...uh, Marcus are good units. Arran less so because he gets 1-upped so early on it's not even funny.

To use one of the weaker examples, FE6 Marcus(AKA Old Marcus) is a good example of a good and well designed units. The game is barely playable if he did not exist

On HM...just clarifying.

The labeling of the Jagen/Oifey archetypes as such is a vestige of the outdated school of thought that prizes growth rates above all else.

Archetypes are lame, I agree.

[MacLovin]

I was under the image that fe3 Arran was good because orbs and statboosters.

Dagda makes fe5 too easy with his crazy bases. I'm pretty sure he counts as a Marcus.

[Refa]

I was under the image that fe3 Arran was good because orbs and statboosters.

Dagda makes fe5 too easy with his crazy bases. I'm pretty sure he counts as a Marcus.

He can be, but then so can the early game scrubs you start out with (Luke, Rody, and Cecil)...I've never given any sirius (...sorry) thought into using him long term, but it just seems really pointless.

Why bother with any of those chumps when you've got heroes for the outdoors and Palla/Catria/Sirius for the indoors?

Edited June 27, 2013 by Refa

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Favoritism!

Also there are case like FE1 Merric vs FE1 Wendell

Wendell wins because Thoron is buyable faster than Cleric Ring >_>

[Refa]

Favoritism!

Also there are case like FE1 Merric vs FE1 Wendell

Wendell wins because Thoron is buyable faster than Cleric Ring >_>

Favoritism is best reason! I'm just saying that FE3 Arran slows down faster than a Magikarp you chucked on Everstone on.

Isn't Excalibur Merric's PRF? Or was that only FE3? Especially since Merric can double with it, and Wendell's better MAG base has 0 uses whatsoever in FE1...So Merric would have better offense if that was the case.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Excalibur is indeed his prf, but Merric does not double anything at base with his 3 AS and Excalibur does not have effective bonus fliers in FE1. Its Much worse >_>

Using Averages, a level 20 Merric is 15.5 SPD. Used Up Excalibur provides 4 level on its own, not including Kills EXP

Base Wendell has 14 Spd - 18 SPD average at 20, and of course can use any kind of staff including Warp and Reserve at base

I bring up Thoron because Thoron is Excalibur without 20 Crit

Granted a trained Merric has higher HP and SKL, so Wendell is not better forever. However, with 6 MOV on both, training Merric is a bit hard

Edited June 27, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[Refa]

3AS actually doubles a lot thanks to all enemies having horrible AS (no swords so bad). Merric's one rounding for quite some team.

But according to SRC, who is FE1 expert, Wendell beats out Merric overall. So good! I mean, I knew that was the case in FE11, but wasn't sure about FE1.

STILL NOT JEIGAN DOES NOT HURT MY ARGUMENT TYPING IN ALL CAPS MAKES ME COMEDIC-ALLY OVEREXAGGERATED

Edited June 27, 2013 by Refa

[dondon151]

I don't get why FE11 Jeigan is great throughout the entire game; sure, he can use effective weaponry, but later on other units can do it a lot better. And his durability isn't particularly great, especially with that 8 speed.

other units being able to do it better doesn't make FE11 jagen not great throughout the entire game.

You think these stats are good? You think these people are good units??

uh yeah, it's not like i've finished playthroughs mostly reliant on these people.

[Parrhesia]

Okay, here's the deal. Jeigans are okay in the beginning, right? They turn shitty later on. Later on in the game where you start facing promoted enemies. Enemies that are quite better than the enemies in the beginning.

By the endgame, your units are on average more powerful relative to the enemies than earlygame. The Jagens are vastly more powerful than the earlygame enemies, and at a point at which nobody else can fight as well as them. You seem to assume that using Jagen/Arran/Marcus for the first ten chapters locks you into having to use him all the way until endgame.