What is the general concensus on same-turn reinforcements?

[1% critted]

Topic.

[Florete]

Typically no, because there's not much worse than having your flank suddenly attacked and your healer killed when they should have been safe.

Some parts of Awakening did it alright, though, since it usually warned you if they'd be coming and it was obvious where they'd come from. In those cases, it's probably fine. Even then, though, not so much if it trolls you with something like Mire sniping in Future Past 1.

One advantage, though, is that if you assume they'd appear in time be moving on the same turn regardless of how they appear, same-turn reinforcements give you an extra turn to block them from appearing at all.

Overall, I don't like them.

[Nobody]

They suck. The only reason they don't bother me anymore on awakening is because I've played it so much that I already know when and where they will appear every chapter, but seriously, they're really unfair, since it doesn't take strategy to avoid them, but rather lucky or replaying a chapter.

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[darkkfan]

Basically exactly what Red Fox said.

[Scarlet]

I have no issues with them as long as at least one of the following two conditions is fulfilled:

1) There's at least one difficulty setting (Normal mode) where reinforcements don't move instantly, so that you can play through the game once to get a rough feel for when and where reinforcements will appear.

2) Reinforcements only spawn from obvious spots like forts or stairs and/or the game warns you beforehand.

With a few exceptions (Chapter 16 and Paralogue 19, to name two of the worst offenders), Awakening did a pretty good job at this, for instance.

[Tables]

Generally, I don't mind them, so long as there's ample warning. Shadow Dragon's were annoying, for example, as are a lot of the ones in some DLC of Awakening (Hot Spring Scramble comes to mind... suddenly counter Myrmidons? Ugh.) In general I would like a little more warning (maybe you could have like an arrow saying "danger" appear the turn reinforcements would be appearing?), but overall, I think Awakening did it fairly well.

[Redwall]

^yeah, it would be nice if, after beating the game (say) once, there existed an option to show when and where reinforcements come out. Something like this would save a lot of time on challenge runs.

[Hawk King]

As long as there is warning for them its fine, but there is nothing worse than planning out a turn for 15 mins, checking enemy stats dozens of times, making sure a unit will survive the enemies who will attack on the EP, and then 2 more enemies pop out and ruin everything.

[Blademaster!]

I like them. It isn't unheard of for a video game to throw stuff at you when you don't exactly know that it's there, and trial and error is part of the fun.

[darkkfan]

I like them. It isn't unheard of for a video game to throw stuff at you when you don't exactly know that it's there, and trial and error is part of the fun.

True, the problem with games requiring trial and error is that it encourages use of forums/guides for help and makes blind runs extremely frustrating. Nowadays, you'll find that rather than replay a map multiple times, people would rather look online for help. There's nothing wrong with this, but why have unexpected reinforcements in the first place when people are just gonna look for info on reinforcements beforehand? Besides, as far as I know, many people that like to do blind runs also play with no resetting.

TL;DR: There's nothing wrong with enjoying trial and error, it is just limits it to a very specific playstyle.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Walhart

[Dark Sage]

Nothing wrong with the occasional trollinforcement as long as it's not shit like Counter Warriors spawning.

[Anouleth]

I like them. It isn't unheard of for a video game to throw stuff at you when you don't exactly know that it's there, and trial and error is part of the fun.

Not really. I don't think there's a lot of fun in surprise game overs. Especially when after the first time you see them, the "surprise" is gone. Then they're just annoying.

[Parrhesia]

So when a silver axe pirate appeared from nowhere and ate Gordin when I was about three turns from winning, no warning, no nothing, this is 'part of the fun'?

I think it could exist as a casual/classic-style choice, though.

[PKL]

They're awesome and keep you on your toes if done well. I wouldn't like them to be gone. Ideally, how FE12 does them, enemy spawns from the back or far from your objective that make you feel pressured to win the map faster. FE13 did them kinda poorly.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Peekayell

[CT075]

i liked the way awakening did it (FOR THE MOST PART) with the exception of future of despair 1 ambushsiege or like, surprise counter warriors

if you get warning at some point beforehand (read: fe13), or it's extremely extremely extremely obvious ("oh hey there are a ton of random forts on this map and the map is really really devoid of enemies") i don't mind at all, nor do i really mind if they appear at a time when i could reasonably expect them

[PKL]

FE13 put them on places where your units would be, usually though. Which is pretty dumb. Especially when youre expecting them in Lunatic+ and they spawn with lolcounter.

[charlie_]

Nothing wrong with the occasional trollinforcement as long as it's not shit like Counter Warriors spawning.

Pretty much this.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

FE13 put them on places where your units would be, usually though. Which is pretty dumb. Especially when youre expecting them in Lunatic+ and they spawn with lolcounter.

Clearly they should spawn with Vantage+

[Shadow Mir]

FE13 did them kinda poorly.

How so? You were generally warned in advance when they were coming (the only exceptions were in chapter 14 and paralogue 19, I think).

[PKLucas531]

How so? You were generally warned in advance when they were coming (the only exceptions were in chapter 14 and paralogue 19, I think).

Going off of what he said earlier, there's a warning, but the reinforcements are usually where you are and can cause more immediate damage. He also said his prefers how some earlier games did it, using an example from FE12: The reinforcements on Chapter 8 spawn from forts from the far south of the map as you're already crossing the bridge to the north, so you have a breadth of like, 2 turns(guesstimating the #, I haven't played in awhile) before they catch up instead of instantly spawning and being able to wreck someone.

In that game, the reinforcements just encourage you to get a move on with the chapter, but you still have time to "prepare" for them in the sense that they don't reach you for awhile.

Edited July 2, 2013 by PKLucas531

[PKL]

Exactly @ what the other PKL said.

FE13 warns you, which is cool and all, but even with the warning, they're kinda unpredictable as to where they will come. Then there's other places like Kjelly's paralogue where it gives no warning at all iirc. And Chapter 20 (though I only found out on Lunatic about them rage) where the game just casually throws like 15 units at the start of the map (seriously wtf?)

[Naglfar]

did any of you enjoy that part where a fucking falcoknight came out of literally nowhere and killed somebody? no, I didn't think so.

[LunaSaint]

I like the sudden "oh crap" factor, but agreed on the where and how mattering. I think it's good that the reinforcements charge towards the fight immediately, but they also shouldn't spawn on top of your army 2 turns from the end. An awakening example would be the Chapter 17 snipers that lead me to camp the stairs until I get boots.

[Rehab]

The abridged version of my opinion is that they should be there for a clear reason. If they just serve to remind the player that the game can decide to fuck with their plans any time it wants to, that just seems like the mechanics gloating, especially if death doesn't motivate the player to do anything but reload.

[spoiler=supplementary rant on unit-death's dearth (IMO) of weight in fe]

It plays into a challenge Fire Emblem faces, to make its narrative and gameplay come together, particularly with regards to death. For the better part of the cast across the series, the only immediate ingame reaction that happens when a character dies is that they tersely breath their last words, and literally disappear from the map. I may be sad to see them go, and try to treat their passing with weight, but for all the game cares, I might as well have just lost a mid tank in Advance Wars; that is, I lost a resource.

The party rarely ever talks about what they lost in that particular unit, and if they do, it's usually many chapters afterwards, like, "Hey, ___'s not around to see this part of they story, bummer dude," and thus well it's after I'd think the time I'd assume would have the most emotional impact, which'd be right when they actually died. The only thing that usually happens is that you lose out on some content (if that unit has conversations in later chapters, if they have a special ending, etc), and in return get to see their death quote and a "they died at ____" when the game ends.

This is, of course, thanks to limits (or rather, difficulties/extra work in communicating more) imposed by the nature of the framework of games, and not necessarily the designer's intentions, but it's still weird for a series that seems to pride itself on giving the player control of an army whose every member is supposed to be their own, mortal person, to have them go so listlessly.

A cynical reading could interpret this as the series saying "Yeah, when people die in war they get forgotten, and that might even be a good thing because killing all day err'day is a job that requires the killers doing it to cope like that, welcome to the jungle kids *drops mic*," but throughout the rest of the games the series doesn't seem nearly so jaded even at its most introspective, at least not openly enough that it seems intentional

So because the games don't attach any meaning to a unit dying beyond "they're gone bro," the player may be influenced to think similarly, if an ambush is so truly threatening it's a guaranteed death; "fuck this, I'm not losing my unit to some bullshit godmodding, *restarts from save*"

So that death then has no meaning to the player beyond spending their time, and possibly their goodwill.

I do think there are things that the game can do make same-turn reinforcements work, though. If the game is going to throw a lot of them at the player, especially if any number of them will come without warning, then even before the level of threat posed by each individual ambush is calibrated, the game could/should do something in the vein of introducing the player to the concept in a controlled, or low-risk environment early on. For example, it might have a unit get ambushed, maybe with no prior warning, possibly as an ingame cutscene, then clearly communicate to the player (possibly stopping just short of breaking the fourth wall), "This can and will happen to you." It could then (in a spelled-out manner) encourage the player to set up strong defensive lines/formations specifically for the purpose of preventing an ambush from killing anyone.

The game can also, of course, have ambushes not quite reach the player in a single turn, or not have them be strong enough to one-round-kill anything from full health to nothing, but one player's definition of having their units "way overextended" may be another's "just playing regularly," so it may be harder to calibrate than it first sounds. It'd be a nice first step to give the player a warning that having a frail and/or wounded unit out in the open without protection is taking a gamble on their safety.

And the least the game could do is to acknowledge an ambush when it happens. The player can be warned, of course, but then it's not really an ambush. What I mean is that if the game feels like it really does absolutely have to pull a truly sicknasty, glass-shattering, "pop goes the healer" ambush, for challenge or story or flavor's sake or whatever, it'd be basic courtesy to at least have somebody ingame yell "oh yOU mOTHerfNRRRRddsssspDAAAGH"

so that the player realizes the game is being "unfair" with regards to punishing an unforeseen error, but it at least knows it's being unfair, and it's hopefully all for a reason.

And some context-sensitive recognition for unit death would of course be nice, including whether they die in or as an obvious result of an ambush, if it's not intended to be a mechanic that simply lengthens playtime by forcing a redo. (this'd be more complicated than just adding a single feature (unless that single feature was tear-jerkingly beautiful or something), and might require some creative scenario if-this-then-that writing, which'd be admittedly time-consuming, but I think it'd do good for the series etc.)

Edited July 2, 2013 by Rehab

[Anouleth]

Exactly @ what the other PKL said.

FE13 warns you, which is cool and all, but even with the warning, they're kinda unpredictable as to where they will come. Then there's other places like Kjelly's paralogue where it gives no warning at all iirc. And Chapter 20 (though I only found out on Lunatic about them rage) where the game just casually throws like 15 units at the start of the map (seriously wtf?)

Kjelle's paralogue is especially obnoxious because they spawn all over the map and it's Rout, so it's just annoying trying to mop them all up only to find that some more have spawned on the other side of the map. And it hardly does you much good to warn you about it, when in most cases the only thing you can do to stop them is just to put units on every fort on the map. Take Chapter 11. Even knowing that the forts are dangerous, you can't do anything about them aside from put a unit on top, because the map forces you to go near them. Or, another good example is FE6 Chapter 18. Even knowing that the circle of tents is dangerous, what can you do about it?