Drafters Mafia Game Thread - GAME OVER

[BBM]

Amnesiac isn't a scummy role so I don't see why Marth should have done that. There's a difference between roles that are common mafia fakes and common mafia roles.

Also, Elie asked people to vote one of JB/Marth/Breezy at a time when they were the leading wagons and we needed to consolidate for a lynch. Then when some people voted Darros, he became a viable lynch too, so he was happy to vote him instead, as he was Elie's "top scumread". At least for me, the issue here is that Darros was the top read in the first place, not that he asked people to vote for one of the first three.

This Marth wagon is Bad and everyone voting him is doing so for D1 reasons while more or less ignoring anything he's said on D2. Earlier on, Shin looked a bit at D2 and said it wasn't bad but that since it came only after being under pressure, it didn't really matter any. Since when have we decided that someone is so strongly scum after D1 that any further attempts they make at scumhunting are just compensation? All Terra said about his D2 is that he's moving votes a lot- the rest is still D1 and doesn't look at the actual content of D2. And Shinori hasn't given shit. Unless Shinori reveals his reason for wanting us to lynch Marth, and it's a good one, I won't vote here.

[Elieson]

Votals

(3) Marth: Shinori, Terrador, Shin

(3) kirsche: BBM, Elieson, scorri

(2) Elieson: kirsche, JB,

(2) Shinori: Bear, Strege

(1) Shin: Marth

Not Voting: Rapier, Breezy

You have 7 hours and 20 minutes left in the phase. With 13 alive, it takes 5 to lynch and 8 to hammer.

God damnit we're getting towards this again, where the wagons are so evenly split with less than a handful of hours pre-phase end.

I'm really not finding Marth (or myself) scummy, and while I have my vote on kirsche, I am interested to see what Shinori has to say still because he never really did much except say "I'm very sure Marth is scum so believe me guys."

Also, the more breezy adds in today, the less suspicious I become of him. Meanwhile, [once again] I feel like Scorri is flying under the radar at Mach speeds, and that she needs to be evaluated. I actually have a gut scumread on her, But since that's all I have, I of course can't push it or anything

[Elieson]

Sry I was wrong. 5.5 hours is slightly more than a handful >_>

[Elieson]

If anyone else comes back, do we want to use our extension today? I'd prefer not to but then again I'm here and ready to discuss stuff

[Terrador]

I'm in favor of extending today. I think we need a lot more discussion, and from what I heard (5 non-town, no?), we aren't quite at a mislynch-and-lose scenario, but two mislynches will probably spell the end of us. We've got to get today right, and we just don't have any one person pinned down ("we" here meaning "by any sort of consensus").

[BBM]

I wouldn't mind the extension. Personally I thought you guys should have used it on D1, because I find you need more time there than during LYLO, due to there being more people and not having had as much time to gather reads.

[Zkirsche]

It depends, if Shinori claims why he knows that Marth is defo scum then we might not need an extension.

Hint Hint.

[Shin]

I'd also be happy to extend!

[Terrador]

It depends, if Shinori claims why he knows that Marth is defo scum then we might not need an extension.

Hint Hint.

What are you hinting at...?

[charlie_]

Extension granted. You have 28 hours.

[Zkirsche]

Not that it matters now, but if Shinori's role really told him that Marth is defo scum then he should explain why.

[Elieson]

Then why didn't you criticise the reasoning instead of dismissing it. Scorri did a similar thing, where she didn't address other Marth votes because they weren't very good, but surely town have to ensure that mislynches don't happen based on such logic.

Didnt i I criticize it when I altered her Listpost under my own interpretation of it?

I also said that Scorri was flying under the radar, which I don't like.

Actually tbh I see laziness as more of a towntell than a scumtell as I see more lazy town than I do scum and scum generally have to try harder to seem town.

Uhh ok. In a game where it's 7:2:1 (my Battle city mafia for instance), if there were 3 lazy players, odds are they are town because of statistics. But when laziness can be forced (ala Prims in the previous Anon mafia) it means nothing, because laziness can be easily used as an excuse, and doesn't help town in anyway. In fact, it hurts town to be lazy. Scum are more likely to slip if they post more, right? So scum have a legit reason to look lazy. Town being lazy is just bad because it hurts a potential power role and town overall. If it's not helping town then it's hurting town.

Weak logic ill get to later.

How am I twisting your words?

You're saying that I viewed her with duh confidence of her being scum when I really wasn't.

I E having 6 leaning scum reads doesn't mean that you think they're all scum. It means that whoever is leaning the most is your primary scum read. But it's still in the "leaning scum" category.

No it's not, try to understand what I'm saying. What I said was "#2-3 scumdidate" does not read "leaning scum" it reads "Major scum read" as she's one of your biggest reads. Clearly I'm misinterpreting it though so if you would please be so kind as to explain the statement. You don't have to vote someone for them to be a major scumread (see: my thoughts on Marth and BBM) because there might be someone scummier.

Consider it like a bell curve. The closer to the end points, the more concise the information. SSG an Breezy were not #1, therefore my thoughts placed them on said curve farther back, which implies that I think they are less likely to be scum than the player in the number 1 slot. Even at consolidation time, I didn't vote SSG, which out to imply that I wasn't thinking she was that scummy, otherwise I'd have pushed my case on her being seriously scummy girl as hard as I could've, in order to work on it more today (not expecting her to have died of course). I see what you mean here though, wrt your opinions on Marth/bbm, so this argument I think is really just a misinterpretation of each other's thoughts processes rather than a misrep. I apologize.

You're missing the point.

Did she or did she not say that she read Breezy as suspicious?

Did you or did you not say that she had no thoughts on him?

The correct answers to these questions are yes and yes. I don't care if her logic is crap, I don't care that you think her logic is crap, I care that you said she didn't have a read and criticised her **for that** and not criticised her for crummy logic. Now you're saying she was scummy because her logic is bad. This is an inconsistency which is scummy.

I'll bite on this. She did say "suspicious" wrt breezy. Her thoughts were due to his "attitude". That's it. That's her fucking case.

Your interpretation of me saying she didnt have any reads (when her reads were shitty) is that I outright didnt think he had reads at all. I complimented her on her Darros vote, Because it was a logical and explained read, that actually mattered. Even if I disagreed with her vote, I'd have said to myself "oh ok she has a decent reason". But SSG never did on breezy et al, so as far as I could tell, she didnt have any real reads because she found people suspicious because she didnt like them, because of their attitude and maybe choice in Avatars or something. Her logic being crap is why her reads meant so little to me.

Also bad logic is also a null tell, townies can be illogical too.

Which is often how mislynches occur. How are we supposed to know until a flip/in thread confirmation occurs though?

You're not stating a possbility you're accusing someone of being scum because of a possibility. It's not scummy until that person says "I told you so" or whatever. If you give indirect cred then you're doing it wrong.

See my bolded question to BBM.

What was Darros' motivation for defending someone in thread, that early in the game, that he (now we are aware that he) had no information on?

What about your second shot? What about the Jb discussion just starting up? What about the terrador conversations that followed before your second shot? It's not about havign reads it's about forming them.

And yet you still did.

My second shot was me simply reminding/reposting my first shot, in a more convincing way. That's about when the Darros read came to be. Only, I still wanted reactions

I let up and said fine fuck it because I was being hit from various angles that I was stifling discussion and that I should stop/clear things up. I could ony wait for so long before breezy showed up, or else face getting lynched while breezy pulls a Rapier. Plus, Mod intervention caught me off guard, as I didn't expect a situation to come up where people would consider that breezy had a BPV. There was only so long I could wait for a response from Breezy, and I never got it.

That is not self-depreciation. Self-depreciation requires me to think I did something wrong and beating myself up over it but given the exact same circumstances I'd probably do the same thing again.

Well, you openly admitted to pretty much not reading and being lazy and that you'd probabt do it again. What do you expect us to say to that shit? Honestly. Should we be supporting you exclusively due to the fact that you admit to being lazy on purpose?

Out of interest do you believe me when I say that I didn't read most of D1 out of a lack of enthusiasm or do you think I am lying?

I believe you when you say you haven't read up your shit. Therefore, I think your cases are often terrible because they've got a poor foundation and/or lack the details that you're Having to explain yourself out of. Had you said "guys I'm tbh just lazy and don't give a fuck, but I think Marth is scum", two posts after a shitty vote on him, I'd call your bullshit Because it isn't indicative of town to not read and not care when scum automatically knows more than town anyway and can purposefully act lazy and still know more than town does. Had you said you were tied up with IRL issues, then your "cases" would have a more understandable reason behind them. It wouldn't make it "better" but it'd explain why you provide what you are providing.

Except bear claw and me and Scorri and terrador, which is like a quarter of the game. Strege even mentioned it, asking you to explain yourself.

Pre-post#45? really? I don't see any forms of scumHUNTING/serious discussion occurring then.

In your opinion it isn't useful. In my opinion meta is super important as people really do behave differently when they're scum and when they're not.

So when people change their play style or come back from a hiatus or simply have more time to play thus more opportunity to post more information, then they're scummy? Different behavior =/= scumminess.

Oh man you're so right I am totally flipping out against people voting Breezy, look at all my walls D1 dediated to try and prevent him from being lynched because I expect you to listen to me and me alone.

People are wondering why I trust Breezy so much. I have told you why I trust Breezy so much. It's up to you if you believe me or not.

Do you think I would lie? Do you think, as scum, I would go to these lengths to try and clear Breezy?

I don't know. It earns you 0 cred to clear breezy, because unless you flip town [something cop-ish], you have nothing concrete to go by. It's an easy way to earn town cred by defending the only claimed PR, especially if he flips town. If he flips town, your alignment is still questionable. I think you as scum clearing Breezy means nothing and I think you expecting us to believe you simply on your word is a stretch

[Elieson]

God that took me forever.

And ok, with phase extension, I'm gonna wait for Shinori's "confirmation" as well.

[Zkirsche]

Didnt i I criticize it when I altered her Listpost under my own interpretation of it?

I also said that Scorri was flying under the radar, which I don't like.

That's a stretch to say that you did that to show your distaste in her reads, but you didn't alter her point about Breezy anyway so it doesn't apply.

Also I brought up Scorri only because she was saying the same thing you did: that poor reads are ignorable. I find that a terrible excuse to ignore a read/vote. One must always question why when it comes to something like that.

**stuff on laziness**

What you put there indeed shows that scum like to purposefully fly under the radar and if they play their cards right they can make themselves seem lazy. However, much of the time oen can discern lazy players from active lurkers. I would not call prims's D1 in Masquerade as lazy as there was a lot of effort in his posts, he just didn't post much. Kuma, Darth and Orion really gave off the impression that they were just lazy.

Assuming perfect play, Laziness is really a nulltel as both town and scum can seem lazy. However, usually there's a different in scum acting lazy and townies being lazy.

You're saying that I viewed her with duh confidence of her being scum when I really wasn't.

That was simply the impression I got from "#2-3 scumreads". Can you not see where I was coming from?

I apologize.

Accepted and returned.

I'll bite on this.

It's a shame it took this long really. My response to teh paragraph following this is that my problem is not that you didn't think she necessarily had any reads, but that you disregarded most of them and then criticised her for having very few reads.

Which is often how mislynches occur. How are we supposed to know until a flip/in thread confirmation occurs though?

You don't, that's why it's a nulltell though.

See my bolded question to BBM.

This was regarding SSG, not Darros. FTR I disagree with your darros vote, but I didn't find it particularly scummy.

My second shot was me simply reminding/reposting my first shot, in a more convincing way. That's about when the Darros read came to be. Only, I still wanted reactions

I wouldn't have as much issue with this if you participated in the discussions more than you did. I don't particularly like letting them slide as "pointless discussions" but I don't think there's much to be done about that.

**regarding my laziness**

"Given my circumstances" implies that it was due to IRL stuff.

Also would scum not even read the thread when trying to coast?

So when people change their play style or come back from a hiatus or simply have more time to play thus more opportunity to post more information, then they're scummy? Different behavior =/= scumminess.

Not exactly. If player 1 plays town with "Plan A" and plays scum with "Plan B" and then goes and plays "Town C" in a game I wouldn't use Meta. If Player 1 plays in a game with me and plays with "Plan B" then I'd think they were likely scum.

I mean, people are reading Shinori as scum for doing the same thing he does every game and I don't think there's much sense to that.

I don't know. It earns you 0 cred to clear breezy, because unless you flip town [something cop-ish], you have nothing concrete to go by. It's an easy way to earn town cred by defending the only claimed PR, especially if he flips town. If he flips town, your alignment is still questionable. I think you as scum clearing Breezy means nothing and I think you expecting us to believe you simply on your word is a stretch

How about instead of clearing me I'm trying to help Breezy (which is pretty obviously the point of me defending him).

If I was town would I lie? Obviously not.

If I was scum would I vehemently defend my scum buddy being tracker? No because that'll just make it easy for us to get caught down the line.

So regardless of my alignment, I have nothing to gain by lying when I tell you with confidence that Breezy is tracker. Don't draw conclusions about my alignment, sure; but draw conclusions about his role.

[BBM]

You being scum doesn't have to make Breezy scum. There are reasons for defending town as scum.

I also don't really like the idea of saying "oh I have a gut read on this person but since it's gut I can't push it". Okay, maybe it's not enough for a vote, but if you feel Scorri needs to be evaluated, why aren't you doing it yourself? Just mentioning it and then disqualifying it in the next sentence seems pointless to me.

[Zkirsche]

You missed my point. If I was town I would not lie about Breezy being tracker. If I was scum I would not lie about Breezy being tracker. Thus, is it not safe to assume that I am telling the truth. Even if I am scum defending town, that makes Breezy town and not scum.

Also I don't understand your second paragraph. I don't have a gut read on Scorri, I just disliked her excuse for one of her actions.

[Bluedoom]

Sorry, that part was actually aimed at Marth if that wasn't clear.

Marth, it's interesting how you've suddenly found a plethora of points against me when you come under fire, defensive much? There's a difference between saying someone doesn't look great and voting for them. You also fail to mention that I said Rapier usually looks bad regardless, and that his inactivity wasn't a tell.

JB went on forever about his "joke" and claimed people were sheeping him. There wasn't that much in his D1 other than saying Breezy's new and making a vote on da bear. Whilst I could have expanded more on the slapfight, I had addressed the cause of it (Eli's weird test) and was using that to understand why kirsche was suspicious. Terr's been flying under my radar today, I just haven't been noticing his posts.

About double standards, remember, how you look is not based on how I look. Just because I don't go into detai on something means that you're excused for doing the same.

However, I am flattered that you dedicated an entire post to me, it's really sweet of you!

WRT Eli, I see him trying to justify his suspicions on Darros and SSG, both of whom flipped town after they died. Whilst they make sense, Darros was an easy mistake for quite a few people and him saying his read on SSG wasn't strong is consistent with what he said earlier. Most of his previous posts on SSG have been about her waffling and not really saying who she thinks is who.

a) You're ignoring the fact that I thought Bearclaw could be noobscum and SO I voted him. Of course I didn't think he looks great back then because I SCUMREAD HIM. I don't see what's the problem over here.

b) If Rapier looks bad regardless, what prompts you to talk about him anyway? I've only remembered you harping on Rapier and I, and until I prodded you you never elaborated on anyone else. This sounds like just posting reads for the heck of it to me.

c) You are basing the scumread on JB off of his 2-3 posts at the start. There isn't really any difference from your vote on him and my/Prims' vote on him. That's called being hypocritical and makes that particular point on me moot when you proceed to do the same anyway.

d) If you're admitting to the fact that you just aren't noticing Terrador, who's voting the same person you're voting, that shows willful ignorance. Not exactly pro-town on your part.

e) Except I elaborated on my bearclaw vote more than you ever saying anything about him. Makes me look better than you, doesn't it?

I'll get to the other stuff when i get back later. Still would like a Shin lynch

[Shinori]

Since we got the extension.

Alignment cop yo.

[scorri]

Welp. That'd do it.

##Unvote

##Vote:Marth

Uh... this screws up my reads some, but general thoughts right now. Still think kirsche is scummy, still not liking Breezy. He said he would give us reads but then disappeared but then reappeared to talk about the kidnapper instead of giving us something actually useful. I had been feeling a bit leery of Shinori but uh... well unless Marth doesn't flip scum, I'm going to just assume that it was me disliking his way of trying to get Marth lynched.

Don't agree with people finding Elie scummy, I think his reaction test was dumb but I don't think it was scummy. Have a neutral newbie vibe on both bear and Terra. Dunno on everyone else, I really need to read more.

[BBM]

@Kirsche- wrt the first paragraph, it's not about Breezy's alignment, it's about your's. Breezy is town, but confirming his role doesn't make you town. Also, the second paragraph was directed towards Elie, not you. Should have made that clearer.

@Shinori- you know if you'd explained this at ANY POINT during the last 72 hours, we could have saved our extension?

##Unvote, ##Vote: Marth I guess. And you should also have two nights of results- what's your second result?

Scorri, it's not the reaction test, it's that he concluded with no results from it, and then more or less parked Darros for the rest of D1 on a case he himself admitted was graspy when he made it. I'm also not really sure about why he's voting Kirsche (would be cool if he could clarify).

[BBM]

Elie, why do you think that Scorri is more under the radar than, say, JB? He's only got like two content posts in the whole phase.

[Shinori]

First result was on prims. Cause I always target him first. Cause he's a good player and a pain to read.

[Elieson]

Well I buy that. Marth? Any comments?

##unvote

##Vote Marth

BBM, when I said I found scorri suspicious for blending in too well, that was an "oh wait I remember now, I was gonna pursue her" but in case you haven't noticed, I've spent all the time I have clarifying and explaining and responding wrt my Test.

I'm home now though. Just got back from a date (first date since my divorce last year) so I'm gonna take a closer look and see what I can actually find, and try to determine if my gut read actually transpired from something.

[Elieson]

Elie, why do you think that Scorri is more under the radar than, say, JB? He's only got like two content posts in the whole phase.

Scorri is about on par with that, plus she hasn't been voted meaning that she's not suspected by really anyone. I'm not saying I find her scummy but I do want to make sure we aren't overlooking her

[BBM]

? IIRC she was voting Kirsche before the cop result on Marth.

Elie, your 402 says, in your words, "I actually have a gut scumread on her". I like your backtracking.