Drafters Mafia Game Thread - GAME OVER

[Shin]

I never made an attempt to say I wasn't being waffly on Bearclaw. Townies can have waffly reads on someone as well.

Your defence of your Darros vote is just "buddying is scummy", which seems really weak and I don't understand how it can be as scummy as giving shitty reads.

That's a pretty bad defense, you don't even need to justify it, just accept it happened.

Weren't we alerted the last time someone was kidnapped? I'm agreeing that Rapier's probably just given up, and that's probably no indication of anything either. Shinori's statement interests me, and I'm still not liking Marth. His sudden bear vote wasn't really explained, admittedly the bear isn't great, but explanation would really help out. I'm afraid "he looks scummy" isn't that good.

[Shinori]

I didn't vote bear. Just said I didn't like him.

Still need this def scum lynched.

[Bluedoom]

alright

why am I definite scum?

@Strege: Rapier has a meta of being stupid as either alignment and also a meta of flaking after D1. So I can't really judge him now.

I don't like Shin's case on me because it harps on my D1 shenanigans when I was way busy and players in general were picking up on activity. Expecting someone to come up with scumreads out of thin air would be stupid, and when i go after the people I think might most likely be scum, its just handwaved as 'being defensive?' Accusing someone of coasting in D1 is dumb and I found that scummy, so i voted for the person I thought would be scum.

He also says my bear vote was not well explained, but that's a double standard, for right there in that same posts Shin himself says "Bear isn't looking great." without explaining further, while I explained far better than that.

In his initial few posts he says me agreeing with Prims is bad, but in that same post he votes JB for the same reason, although more 'explained.'(really its just a few more characters typed)

Shin's other content include:

a) Saying Rapier's scummy: But this is really easy to do seeing Rapier's inactive and you even know that his style is generally a scummy one.

b) Saying JB's content is poor: "His content is poor." is a POOR reason to lynch someone, let alone subjective and stupid.

c) Eli and kisrche slapfight: You're harping on Eli's fake dayvig thing without even considering analysis of his later posts. You don't really expand on what you think of the slapfight between Eli and kirsche, if it means anything or such. Hell, in fact you're just posting one-liners, which doesn't even help.

d) You bring up about Terrador being super analytical in your post all the way back in D1 but NEVER ever mention any read or point on him ever again.

##Unvote ##Vote: Shin

[Zkirsche]

Shinori you should probably claim because people aren't buying it. (I kinda do see that Marth could be scum but Elie is worse for me).

Wall incoming btw.

[Bluedoom]

Not a fan of lynching Eli because part of the reason is someone harping on his dayvig shot reaction test(a.k.a kirsche and JB) and Eli in my eyes is defending himself well (It makes sense with his train of thought on newbies especially)

Also I'd rather not be lynched without Shinori claiming because if you do lynch me and see my flip he can just hide behind the excuse of "well my role hinted at this what could I do?" without town knowing what it was.

[Zkirsche]

--Not really. She had a dumb reason to suspect someone of being scum. Why should I have to even defend this. She didn't like his attitude. That's not a case.

Then why didn't you criticise the reasoning instead of dismissing it. Scorri did a similar thing, where she didn't address other Marth votes because they weren't very good, but surely town have to ensure that mislynches don't happen based on such logic.

--It's not a towntell, and I don't read posting weak cases/logic as a nulltell, so what's left for me to assume?

Actually tbh I see laziness as more of a towntell than a scumtell as I see more lazy town than I do scum and scum generally have to try harder to seem town.

--Also, you're twisting my words just as much as you "say" I am hers. I had a leaning scumread on her because she so poorly logic'd her way to her reads (or lack of reads)

How am I twisting your words?

--If I were so sure of SSG being scum, I'd have voted her. But I didn't. I'm pretty sure I said that she was leaning scum. Which means out of my other reads, she was up there. But I never voted for her, nor did I push her hard to be scum, which outta imply that I didn't find her as scummy as you're saying I found her. This, is a misrep.

No it's not, try to understand what I'm saying. What I said was "#2-3 scumdidate" does not read "leaning scum" it reads "Major scum read" as she's one of your biggest reads. Clearly I'm misinterpreting it though so if you would please be so kind as to explain the statement. You don't have to vote someone for them to be a major scumread (see: my thoughts on Marth and BBM) because there might be someone scummier.

--She said, after not liking his attitude, that she found him suspicious. In her next post, she said she didn't like his Newb attitude. Again. Point me to where the fuck the sense is in her logic, and I'll be happy to withdraw my assertion that she didn't know what she was talking about.

You're missing the point.

Did she or did she not say that she read Breezy as suspicious?

Did you or did you not say that she had no thoughts on him?

The correct answers to these questions are yes and yes. I don't care if her logic is crap, I don't care that you think her logic is crap, I care that you said she didn't have a read and criticised her **for that** and not criticised her for crummy logic. Now you're saying she was scummy because her logic is bad. This is an inconsistency which is scummy.

Also bad logic is also a null tell, townies can be illogical too.

--The point of what I said here was that she opened herself up to being able to in the future. Are you finding me scummy for stating a possibility that I had no idea whether it'd occur or not?

You're not stating a possbility you're accusing someone of being scum because of a possibility. It's not scummy until that person says "I told you so" or whatever. If you give indirect cred then you're doing it wrong.

--I made my fake shot on early page3/clarified on early page5. Other than breezy taking prims seriously (which I viewed as a nulltell), what the fuck had happened? Seriously. How many reads did you have before I posted my "Dayvig Breezy"? There were barely over 40 posts prior to my call, pretty much all of which include RVS, stupidity, unrelated and offtopic discussion and Modposts.

Then shit started. I hadn't gotten my reaction from breezy yet, and damned be me if I was gonna do a reaction test like that and just say "OOOP NVM GUYS I WAS JOKING" before he logged back in to post. It looked like Nulls doing Nothing, so I did something.

What about your second shot? What about the Jb discussion just starting up? What about the terrador conversations that followed before your second shot? It's not about havign reads it's about forming them.

And yet you still did.

--This is yet another self-depreciation. "I didn't really pay attention so what I did in the past shouldn't be viewed as scummy or bad". You're writing your own shit off, using your self-depreciation as an excuse.

That is not self-depreciation. Self-depreciation requires me to think I did something wrong and beating myself up over it but given the exact same circumstances I'd probably do the same thing again.

Out of interest do you believe me when I say that I didn't read most of D1 out of a lack of enthusiasm or do you think I am lying?

Not a fuck was being given by anyone

Except bear claw and me and Scorri and terrador, which is like a quarter of the game. Strege even mentioned it, asking you to explain yourself.

--(This was WRT Meta.) It's not that you're not right or wrong, it's not really useful either way.

In your opinion it isn't useful. In my opinion meta is super important as people really do behave differently when they're scum and when they're not.

you are acting like it is.

Oh man you're so right I am totally flipping out against people voting Breezy, look at all my walls D1 dediated to try and prevent him from being lynched because I expect you to listen to me and me alone.

People are wondering why I trust Breezy so much. I have told you why I trust Breezy so much. It's up to you if you believe me or not.

Do you think I would lie? Do you think, as scum, I would go to these lengths to try and clear Breezy?

[Shin]

I didn't vote bear. Just said I didn't like him.

Still need this def scum lynched.

Sorry, that part was actually aimed at Marth if that wasn't clear.

Marth, it's interesting how you've suddenly found a plethora of points against me when you come under fire, defensive much? There's a difference between saying someone doesn't look great and voting for them. You also fail to mention that I said Rapier usually looks bad regardless, and that his inactivity wasn't a tell.

JB went on forever about his "joke" and claimed people were sheeping him. There wasn't that much in his D1 other than saying Breezy's new and making a vote on da bear. Whilst I could have expanded more on the slapfight, I had addressed the cause of it (Eli's weird test) and was using that to understand why kirsche was suspicious. Terr's been flying under my radar today, I just haven't been noticing his posts.

About double standards, remember, how you look is not based on how I look. Just because I don't go into detai on something means that you're excused for doing the same.

However, I am flattered that you dedicated an entire post to me, it's really sweet of you!

WRT Eli, I see him trying to justify his suspicions on Darros and SSG, both of whom flipped town after they died. Whilst they make sense, Darros was an easy mistake for quite a few people and him saying his read on SSG wasn't strong is consistent with what he said earlier. Most of his previous posts on SSG have been about her waffling and not really saying who she thinks is who.

[Zkirsche]

Shin if you think Elie is being consistent with what she said earlier can you respond to this in my wall against him:

You're missing the point.

Did she or did she not say that she read Breezy as suspicious?

Did you or did you not say that she had no thoughts on him?

The correct answers to these questions are yes and yes. I don't care if her logic is crap, I don't care that you think her logic is crap, I care that you said she didn't have a read and criticised her **for that** and not criticised her for crummy logic. Now you're saying she was scummy because her logic is bad. This is an inconsistency which is scummy.

This is WRT SSG's list post.

[Shin]

Woah, your mega-post ninja'd me. Could you link me to the post that it was a reply to? Imma have a look through Eli's ISO in the meantime.

[Shin]

OK, looking back on Eli, he first turned his attention to SSG for low activity (apparently 2 posts in 7 pages), a lack of reads and maintaining an RVS vote. Then he says that his main three are like Darros, SSG and Breezy. SSG's list post was pretty bad and he called her out for it, since it was pretty much just what everyone had done in the last 5 pages.

He then agrees with her Darros vote despite it being "focusing on a handful of people." and later asks people to vote for JB, Breezy and Marth? He's then quite happy for Darros to be lynched at the end of the day despite those three being roughly tied with da chump. I want some jibber-jabber with the monocle man!

[Elieson]

Not a fan of lynching Eli because part of the reason is someone harping on his dayvig shot reaction test(a.k.a kirsche and JB) and Eli in my eyes is defending himself well (It makes sense with his train of thought on newbies especially)

Also I'd rather not be lynched without Shinori claiming because if you do lynch me and see my flip he can just hide behind the excuse of "well my role hinted at this what could I do?" without town knowing what it was.

It sounds like you just admitted to having a potentially scummy role. Shouldn't this be something you claim lik D1 (at least that your role may be scummy, if not specifically what it is)?

[Strege]

Sorry, that part was actually aimed at Marth if that wasn't clear.

Marth, it's interesting how you've suddenly found a plethora of points against me when you come under fire, defensive much? There's a difference between saying someone doesn't look great and voting for them. You also fail to mention that I said Rapier usually looks bad regardless, and that his inactivity wasn't a tell.

JB went on forever about his "joke" and claimed people were sheeping him. There wasn't that much in his D1 other than saying Breezy's new and making a vote on da bear. Whilst I could have expanded more on the slapfight, I had addressed the cause of it (Eli's weird test) and was using that to understand why kirsche was suspicious. Terr's been flying under my radar today, I just haven't been noticing his posts.

About double standards, remember, how you look is not based on how I look. Just because I don't go into detai on something means that you're excused for doing the same.

However, I am flattered that you dedicated an entire post to me, it's really sweet of you!

WRT Eli, I see him trying to justify his suspicions on Darros and SSG, both of whom flipped town after they died. Whilst they make sense, Darros was an easy mistake for quite a few people and him saying his read on SSG wasn't strong is consistent with what he said earlier. Most of his previous posts on SSG have been about her waffling and not really saying who she thinks is who.

Regarding the second paragraph, isn't one of the reasons you're voting for Marth a lack of content? Now you're criticizing him for producing it too quickly? You indicate that his vote is part of this, but you think his previous vote was bad, so why is the switch scummy? These things strike me as quite arbitrary.

@Elie: You know Marth claimed amnesiac, right? I don't know where you're getting that interpretation of that post. The bit in quotes is from Shinori's perspective.

[Elieson]

OK, looking back on Eli, he first turned his attention to SSG for low activity (apparently 2 posts in 7 pages), a lack of reads and maintaining an RVS vote. Then he says that his main three are like Darros, SSG and Breezy. SSG's list post was pretty bad and he called her out for it, since it was pretty much just what everyone had done in the last 5 pages.

He then agrees with her Darros vote despite it being "focusing on a handful of people." and later asks people to vote for JB, Breezy and Marth? He's then quite happy for Darros to be lynched at the end of the day despite those three being roughly tied with da chump. I want some jibber-jabber with the monocle man!

Marth and JB I didn't find scummy, and I wasn't so keen on lynching the Tracker claim, leaving the unclaimed Darrps (of whom I was suspicious of already) to be the mainstay of my vote.

Like I said a few hours ago; I feel bad that a mislynch occurred but I don't regret voting for Darros because I found him to be legit scummy and I'm not going to use one of those "in hindsight" arguments to say that I was stupid and shouldn't have voted him because reading back on it, I don't think I was in the wrong for thinking the way I did, despite the derp outcome.

Also for the record, I think her darros vote is the only well-articulated vote she made.

[Elieson]

@Strege, that's my point. When I said claiming D1, I meant that he should've autoclaimed regardless of being pressured, on principal of having a scummy role. Amnesiac isn't necessarily a scum exclusive role, just like Watcher isn't a town-exclusive role. His method of claim is the weird thing, that d1 he claimed with pressure on him and d2 he's countering Shinori with "you're just misinterpreting my role" or something.

[Elieson]

Oh and kirsche imma get to you when I hit up a PC, it's extremely difficult to reply to an uber post like that while phonebound

[Strege]

@Strege, that's my point. When I said claiming D1, I meant that he should've autoclaimed regardless of being pressured, on principal of having a scummy role. Amnesiac isn't necessarily a scum exclusive role, just like Watcher isn't a town-exclusive role. His method of claim is the weird thing, that d1 he claimed with pressure on him and d2 he's countering Shinori with "you're just misinterpreting my role" or something.

Oh, I see. I have my own opinions about this but I'd kinda like to hear what Marth has to say before I say anything. Also, to keep you updated, I checked your recent content again and don't find anything objectionable.

[Shin]

Regarding the second paragraph, isn't one of the reasons you're voting for Marth a lack of content? Now you're criticizing him for producing it too quickly? You indicate that his vote is part of this, but you think his previous vote was bad, so why is the switch scummy? These things strike me as quite arbitrary.

It's less that he's actually produced content, but more that he's only doing it now when he came under fire. Whilst that's not a "I am scum" sign, it's interesting to see how he's making a little more effort under pressure.

[Bluedoom]

It sounds like you just admitted to having a potentially scummy role. Shouldn't this be something you claim lik D1 (at least that your role may be scummy, if not specifically what it is)?

DUDE, I CLAIMED AMNESIAC ALL THE WAY BACK IN D1, THERE ISN'T ANYTHING SCUMMY TO MY ROLE I CAN THINK OF OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT ITS A COMMON MAFIA FAKE

[Bluedoom]

sORRY NEVER MINF

I can't read or think straight w/e

[Bluedoom]

Err ok.

I don't know what's going on in your head Eli, but Shinori thinks I'm 90% scum and thinks he doesn't need to claim to prove I'm scum. Basically that's like, hinting there's something related to his role that makes him think I'm scum.

If I got lynched while he doesn't claim, then he can just play it off as "Well I thought he was maybe THIS but I was wrong"

[charlie_]

Going to try and find a sub for Rapier if he doesn't show himself by phase end.

[Bluedoom]

Also I never knew amnesiac was a scummy role that you autoclaim, we've never done that on SF before

[charlie_]

Votals

(3) Marth: Shinori, Terrador, Shin

(3) kirsche: BBM, Elieson, scorri

(2) Elieson: kirsche, JB,

(2) Shinori: Bear, Strege

(1) Shin: Marth

Not Voting: Rapier, Breezy

You have 7 hours and 20 minutes left in the phase. With 13 alive, it takes 5 to lynch and 8 to hammer.

[Elieson]

Marth, I meant

hai Giez I has a scummy roll

You should've said something like that.

[Bluedoom]

Marth, I meant

You should've said something like that.

Idk it didn't cross my mind. I don't consider it a scummy role in itself (its called a 'common' fake but its not as common here on SF as you'd like to think)