Drafters Mafia Game Thread - GAME OVER

[Shin]

I'm seeing a slapfight between Eli and kirsche. Eli's reaction test was pretty weird, and I don't know why Eli thought he'd achieve something from it, and it's outside his usual play (from the games I've seen). kirsche doesn't seem particularly bad, but I don't like how Breezy is excused by a "gut feeling". I'll have more to say tomorrow, it's bedtime for SHIN.

[Zkirsche]

I didn't say he was clear I said I think he's tracker.

[BBM]

If you don't think he's clear, then why were you harping on people yesterday for attacking him? While people brought up the possibility of him being scum!Kidnapper, I don't think anyone actually voted for him solely because of it. The votes on him were for sheeping and crazy speculation, IIRC. So if you think the possibility of him being a scum Tracker is there, why are you defending him so much?

[Zkirsche]

I'm not harping on people yesterday for attacking him. I said I think he's tracker and that I'm less suspicious of him than Marth, which people attacked me for. I am not convinced at all that he's kidnapper and believed that people have jumped to the wrong conclusion and that if they want to attack Breezy they should do it by other means. To say that I'm "defending him so much" is blowing things out of proportion.

[scorri]

Breezy: If it's not too hard, could you give your results from last night? Honestly, to me, that's more important than opinions for you right now.

[Terrador]

Breezy: If it's not too hard, could you give your results from last night? Honestly, to me, that's more important than opinions for you right now.

This is hereby seconded.

[Terrador]

Also, kirsche: can you go in-depth on why you think Elie's scummy? I'm reading through, and finding a lot of things you mention, but I can't find any real cohesive argument from toDay.

[Strege]

Bad meta is easy to use to justify whatever bullshit case you want to make, so it can be scummy. I'm not handwaving everything that Bear is doing by saying he's new either, just those parts that I think can be ascribed to his newbiness (bad meta, IMO, is not one of them). I'll admit my wording for a lot of what I say about him is waffly, but that's because my read on him is waffly. I have trouble reading new players because it's hardest to separate bad play from scummy play for them, so I tend to let a lot of stuff go. As for the JB thing, I suppose that's true, except Bear's vote wasn't even all that sheepy. It was the third vote on the wagon when there were other wagons there. And JB's reason for switching was that Breezy was trying harder due to his spec about me, which is kind of lame.

The pet peeve isn't actually scummy, it's just annoying enough to me that I tend to let it colour my opinion of the person doing it even when I know it shouldn't.

bearclaw employed bad meta to defend Shinori at a time when only I was voting him -- I'm wondering where you see scum intent in that.

I don't think this growing, group slapfight surrounding kirsche is all that productive. kirsche, I get the sense that you're busy and I think you did request specific questions, but I'd like some more detailed scumreads on people who aren't Elie if you can find the time. You mentioned that you don't trust Marth but haven't commented on his content today other than to respond to the things he directed toward you, so that would be a nice place to start.

[Zkirsche]

-Dumb reaction test which got nowhere

-Purposefully ignoring potentially useful discussion for said reaction test

-Misrepping SSG

-OMGUS on me

[Zkirsche]

Your right I've been meaning to do it but have been getting distracted with all this Elie talk.

Regarding Marth, he's obviously been a bit jumpy with his vote but I don't think undecidedness is scummy, what is kinda weird though is how he has this sort of threatening tone to some of his posts, especially #255 where he says he "needs" an update from him which is rubbing me up the wrong way. It's pretty obvious that Breezy was claiming tracker too so he seems overly paranoid that he could be claiming something else or that there's somethign else to his role. Also he said he couldn't judge my D1 play but then voted me so I assume it was based on the two points that irk him but they were both not liking my logic for finding him scummy, so it looks like a weak vote FMPOV. Obviously I'm biased but it seems weird. He also said that he doesn't think Elie is scum because he's attacking breezy a lot and he doesn't think scum would tunnel like that, but that logic irks me. I also don't like his attack on Rapier here as I don't see how Rapier is grasping and I can't help that he's getting overly frustrated at being voted which is scummy. Coasting is a common scum move so saying that it can't justify a vote is pretty dumb. He seems like he's busy (I'm not busy I'm just lazy) though as he didn't respond to anything today.

I'm getting increasingly wary of BBM who's acting more and more like he did in 2hu. I might be jumping the gun a bit but I remember him blowing stuff out of proportion with regards to me in 2hu and I really dislike #272 for some reason. I dunno it seems he's playing more like he did in 2hu than he did in Masquerade so all things considered he's probably my second biggest scumread.

You know my stance on Shinori (no idea whatsoever) and I'm pretty neutral on most other parties. I'm a bit confused as to what happened to Shin's opinion of Rapier, he came in here and voted Marth and didn't even talk about Rapier who I got the impression that he didn't like (probably the super snarky post). Also he voted JB for being serious in RVS and I'm not sure that that's really scummy.

[Breezy Kanzaki]

Luckily I get home on the IPad just in time.

Well, I tracked DA BEAR at he did nothing N1, and I can leave discussion to you guys.

Although tracking him probably wasn't the BEST thing I could do, it COULD lead to something. And when I say COULD, I mean probably not but it might.

[Zkirsche]

You should have more confidence. Inactive people are always good vig targets because they go under the radar and we don't want to miss scum because of that.

[BBM]

My 272 was two lines, the first of which was because I misinterpreted your first post. The quotes in that post didn't have the person's name in them and I assumed they were from Marth because I remembered two of them as being his and one of them as being mine. The second line was because you justified a hard defence of Breezy on gut. And yes, insisting that he is a Tracker IS a hard defence, because you're otherwise implying the possibility of a scum Tracker targeting someone the mafia kidnapped (and therefore hooked). So I don't think I'm blowing anything out of proportion by saying you're defending him. If Breezy is actually a Tracker, the odds of him being mafia are very low. And other than that, on D1, you called for Marth's lynch over Breezy and said that you didn't understand why people were voting him for targeting me when that wasn't it at all.

You can't really compare anon games to non-anon games that well either, and Touhou was a different case even for my scumplay, because you were one of the only remaining targets and I had to push for your lynch even if you weren't being particularly scummy. That's not the situation here.

@Strege- true enough I suppose, but Bearclaw had just expressed slight suspicion against Shinori a few hours before employing the meta, which is kind of weird.

Kirsche's Marth paragraph takes an awful lot of space to come to not much of a conclusion about him. He also attacks him quite a bit and then handwaves it at the end by saying "but he's busy". So?

[Shinori]

Gaisssssss he'sss scummmmm lynch himmmmm

[Da Bear]

Well, I tracked DA BEAR at he did nothing N1, and I can leave discussion to you guys.

Although tracking him probably wasn't the BEST thing I could do, it COULD lead to something. And when I say COULD, I mean probably not but it might.

You're correct I did nothing last night.

(sorry if the confirm was unnecessary I though it was a good idea to tell everyone he's right)

[Zkirsche]

My 272 was two lines, the first of which was because I misinterpreted your first post. The quotes in that post didn't have the person's name in them and I assumed they were from Marth because I remembered two of them as being his and one of them as being mine. The second line was because you justified a hard defence of Breezy on gut. And yes, insisting that he is a Tracker IS a hard defence, because you're otherwise implying the possibility of a scum Tracker targeting someone the mafia kidnapped (and therefore hooked). So I don't think I'm blowing anything out of proportion by saying you're defending him. If Breezy is actually a Tracker, the odds of him being mafia are very low. And other than that, on D1, you called for Marth's lynch over Breezy and said that you didn't understand why people were voting him for targeting me when that wasn't it at all.

When did I say that I thought people were voting him just for targetting you, I said it isn't suspicious that he targetted you, simple as that. This is what I mean by blowing things out of proportion, you're acting like I made a big deal out of this when really it was a minor remark that for some reason everyone keeps focusing on. Did I go around forcing people off of Breezy''s lynch? No. Did I ever say that people's criticisms of him were unreasonable? No. Those are what comes to mind when I think of the phrase "hard-defending".

I didn't really think it through but you have a point that Breezy being tracker implies him being town, assuming scum!kidnapper and there were no redirect shenanigans, Breezy is probably town.

You can't really compare anon games to non-anon games that well either, and Touhou was a different case even for my scumplay, because you were one of the only remaining targets and I had to push for your lynch even if you weren't being particularly scummy. That's not the situation here.

This is true but it's not enough to shake this feeling I have.

Kirsche's Marth paragraph takes an awful lot of space to come to not much of a conclusion about him. He also attacks him quite a bit and then handwaves it at the end by saying "but he's busy". So?

It's pretty obvious that I find him pretty scummy. Him being busy means that a push on him might not accomplish much just like it wasn't worth lynching Kuma in Masquerade despite the obvious scumminess.

[Da Bear]

It's pretty obvious that I find him pretty scummy. Him being busy means that a push on him might not accomplish much just like it wasn't worth lynching Kuma in Masquerade despite the obvious scumminess.

If he's getting voted he's going to answer eventually. Not even a lack of time is going to stop that.

Just don't all start voting him at deadline if you want results from him....

[BBM]

Kirsche, you voted for Kumaneko in Masquerade so I'm not entirely sure what you're going for there by saying it wasn't worth lynching him in that game. And you said a lot more about Marth than you did about me and still concluded with me being scummier just because my play reminds you of Touhou, which is why I didn't think that you were scumreading Marth very much until you just clarified.

If the Kidnapper is town, they should have claimed by now (or not silenced the most active poster playing on N0)

[Strege]

Gaisssssss he'sss scummmmm lynch himmmmm

>______ >

I'm getting increasingly wary of BBM who's acting more and more like he did in 2hu. I might be jumping the gun a bit but I remember him blowing stuff out of proportion with regards to me in 2hu and I really dislike #272 for some reason. I dunno it seems he's playing more like he did in 2hu than he did in Masquerade so all things considered he's probably my second biggest scumread.

You know my stance on Shinori (no idea whatsoever) and I'm pretty neutral on most other parties. I'm a bit confused as to what happened to Shin's opinion of Rapier, he came in here and voted Marth and didn't even talk about Rapier who I got the impression that he didn't like (probably the super snarky post). Also he voted JB for being serious in RVS and I'm not sure that that's really scummy.

Alright, but I do hope you realize that your read on BBM isn't very convincing due to its RVS basis.

Shin did actually mention Rapier on D2 in the following post:

Yo! Yaranaika! I like waffles! MY MOM! Groovy! I can't believe people think I sound like that.

Sorry I've been at work the last two days, dem hospitals.

Marth's main problem is that he's been very defensive, and has had relatively little content that's actually productive. His D1 analysis wasn't horrible, other than the misread, but I feel that's him trying to compensate for his lackluster day 1.

##YouHaveNoPants: Marth

Also, whilst it doesn't really factor into my vote, getting angry is not going to do you any favours when it comes to explaining yourself.

JB's content is still pretty poor other than making bad "jokes" and trying to sleep by counting sheep. Breezy, I feel is trying to help but doesn't actually have any idea what to do. If he were scum, I'd imagine they'd provide him with things to say so he doesn't sound too bad. That's what the scumteam did for me in my first mafia game. I'm also not a fan of the Rapier, but I never am really. His defense of JB is incredibly poor, saying that the RVS thing doesn't even matter, and ignoring his lack of useful content. But hey, that's Rapier.

Eli, you're still confusing me. You seem really strange this game. I don't think it leans either way at this point, but I don't get it.

I'm quoting this because I realized that this Marth vote kind of comes out of nowhere, and I don't think it's very well supported. It implies but doesn't cite specific problems with Marth's analysis of D1, or his D1 itself. I'm not a fan of the nullread on Rapier and not-very-specific criticism of JB either. Trawling through the ISO, I see Shin holds the JB vote to the end of D1 with nothing more than "I want him to explain being serious in RVS" which bothers me quite a lot.

[Strege]

Alright, but I do hope you realize that your read on BBM isn't very convincing due to its RVS basis.

I meant to type "meta basis" instead of "RVS basis".

[Sunwoo]

BBM's updated ISO link. SB, please put in OP.

[Shin]

I'm quoting this because I realized that this Marth vote kind of comes out of nowhere, and I don't think it's very well supported. It implies but doesn't cite specific problems with Marth's analysis of D1, or his D1 itself. I'm not a fan of the nullread on Rapier and not-very-specific criticism of JB either. Trawling through the ISO, I see Shin holds the JB vote to the end of D1 with nothing more than "I want him to explain being serious in RVS" which bothers me quite a lot.

My Marth vote was for his presence but lack of action in D1. Instead of hunting, a lot of it's very defensive, especially with regards to coasting. He also counter-votes SSG D1 because he doesn't like her vote on him. He says he'd have like a JB or Rapier lynch, but had voted JB after a one liner saying he agrees with Prims. The only thing he has to say about Rapier is that he can't read and denies that he is coasting.

I wouldn't say I had a null read on Rapier, but I know from past games his "way with words" often makes him look like scum. Still, I'd say he's a little stinky, mostly due to the poor content. His votes on Marth were for "I expected better from you." and "Oh right, Marth doesn't have enough votes to be lynched". The later seems very opportunistic.

[Jaybee]

Another thing I don't like about JB is that in 185, he was like "there's literally no reason to talk about BBM so much unless you're the scum kidnapper" and then in 196 (only around an hour and a half later) and just recently in 286 he was like "breezy is probably confused newbtown due to BBMspec". This change in opinion seems... odd.

the only people who would have brought up your being kidnapped would have been the people who didn't know it was pointless to pursue it

i see no reason for experienced town to bring it up, nor would any mafia member. that leaves noob town.

Also on the topic of Shinori, it seems to me that he's always like this. He was definitely like this is 2hu and he was town there so meta tells me town but that's not saying much. He's someone I need actual information on before making a judgement, so I'll wait until later in teh game before making a verdict.

i am bleeding from the amount of meta

Gaisssssss he'sss scummmmm lynch himmmmm

what the fuck

Regarding Marth, he's obviously been a bit jumpy with his vote but I don't think undecidedness is scummy, what is kinda weird though is how he has this sort of threatening tone to some of his posts, especially #255 where he says he "needs" an update from him which is rubbing me up the wrong way. It's pretty obvious that Breezy was claiming tracker too so he seems overly paranoid that he could be claiming something else or that there's somethign else to his role. Also he said he couldn't judge my D1 play but then voted me so I assume it was based on the two points that irk him but they were both not liking my logic for finding him scummy, so it looks like a weak vote FMPOV. Obviously I'm biased but it seems weird. He also said that he doesn't think Elie is scum because he's attacking breezy a lot and he doesn't think scum would tunnel like that, but that logic irks me. I also don't like his attack on Rapier here as I don't see how Rapier is grasping and I can't help that he's getting overly frustrated at being voted which is scummy. Coasting is a common scum move so saying that it can't justify a vote is pretty dumb. He seems like he's busy (I'm not busy I'm just lazy) though as he didn't respond to anything today.

>i dont think the way marth has been acting with his vote is scummy

>but he's talking in a scummy way

>going to justify my bad view of marth

>he might be busy so it's ok if he doesn't respond

what

still waiting for elie to respond to http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=41500&p=2495637 (i cant format with the new forum)

i also don't understand how kirsche can say he's voting marth on d1 purely because of role, and then when d2 comes he believes breezy because gut of all things when there's more than enough info, and then he's fairly on the ball with defending breezy. ehhhhhhh

[Zkirsche]

Kirsche, you voted for Kumaneko in Masquerade so I'm not entirely sure what you're going for there by saying it wasn't worth lynching him in that game.

Yes but I was scum trying to score an easy lynch.

Alright, but I do hope you realize that your read on BBM isn't very convincing due to its RVS basis.

I know most people don't like meta but I just thought I should mention it.

Shin did actually mention Rapier on D2 in the following post:

You're right he did, but he didn't put very much about him at all considering it looked like Rapier was his top D1 scum read.

He has since responded of course and I'm finding his response ok.

i am bleeding from the amount of meta

Am I wrong?

he might be busy so it's ok if he doesn't respond

When did I say that? I said he looks busy. That's it. Don't put words in my mouth please, they don't taste very nice.

he believes breezy because gut of all things when there's more than enough info

There's info and my gut tells me that the info reads tracker.

[Terrador]

There's info and my gut tells me that the info reads tracker.

What information are you referring to here...?