PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[Knusperkeks]

So you're saying that I misunderstood about Morgan. A male Morgan is preferable because of Aggressor.

And I understand what increases Atk and DS%. I was mostly wondering what increases those enough to get kills without procs. I assume tons of forged weapons mostly. Sorry for the confusion

Atk is the only reliable way to increase raw damage output, assuming hit rating is capped. If enough skill is accumulated, it is also a way to make damage more consistent. Once DS reaches 100%, it is a certain damage increase.

[sthbdis]

Ok, let me rephrase again. What is the Atk rating we're looking for to "outright kill the enemy without procs?" Is there a golden number we want to hit? Like speed being 75 to double Anna?

[Knusperkeks]

Ok, let me rephrase again. What is the Atk rating we're looking for to "outright kill the enemy without procs?" Is there a golden number we want to hit? Like speed being 75 to double Anna?

That depends entirely on the enemies' defense/resistance, HP, skills and eventualities like weapon triangle influence.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Additionally is there a team which would work in Apo if the avatar fathers Owain, if you think there is how would it stack up to the above? On that same note, how does fathering Severa stack up to Apo? (It feels like a waste to father Severa to me?)

That all works, though you'll get slightly more mileage out of switching Morgan to Valkyrie. Fred!Inigo is also extremely slow without a +Spd support, I strongly advise giving him something that will put him at least +2 Spd over where he is now.

Avatar should almost always be +Spd/-Def when fathering 2nd gen kids. In Owain's case he can make a nice Dark Knight (x Dark Flier). Severa actually is one of the kids who benefits most from Avatar fathering her; most 2nd gen units will just be slightly better from him but because she's so good already Avatar pushes her into the start of 3rd gen Morgan territory in terms of the things she can do. Since Cordelia can also lead Avatar very well, and it's a solid pair ingame on every difficulty, its only drawback becomes the 2nd gen pairing imbalance. Overall it's a really good pair for everyone involved (just make sure you're +Spd and not -Mag or -Res).

All that will work in Apo nicely.

As long as Aggressor exists, male Morgan will always dish out more damage than his female pendant.

Nope. You're forgetting about Aether.

Assume both Morgans are Snipers with Berserker supports (even though Morgan-M isn't going to want one of those) and neutral Str mods. Skills are LB/GF/BF/Luna, with male packing Aggressor and female using Aether. +5/15 Longbows are being used. Target is Throne Anna. Skl mods are both neutral as well.

Base Atk (no Agg): 41(base) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +10(pairup) +5(BF) +2(tonic) +16(L.Bow) =94

Skl: 48(base) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +3(pairup) +2(tonic) =73

Normal damage: 18

Luna damage: 31

Aether damage: 49

Agg damage: 23

Agg/Luna damage: 36

Morgan-M's average damage output: .73*36 + .27*23 =32.49

Morgan-F's average damage output: .36*49 + .4672*31 + .1728*18 =35.2336

Morgan-F wins in that example by nearly 3 whole average damage points, which is funny since it's very weighted toward Morgan-M (he's given a Berserker support where he normally wouldn't have one, for example, and because Morgan-F is using a procstack adding more Skl will benefit her more than Morgan-M (both of their Skl mods are unrealistically low)).

[Knusperkeks]

And you're forgetting that Sages don't have as much Atk as Berserkers.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Why does that matter?

[Knusperkeks]

Because male Morgan's raison d'être is to be a Berserker, something only a male can accomplish. If you don't make him a Berserker, he might as well have been born a woman.

[Czar_Yoshi]

So make Morgan-F a General. Same Atk stats once again, but now F has +6 Skl on M.

And M has plenty of things to do other than be a Berserker, anyway.

[Knusperkeks]

Have fun with your General speed cap lol. Why would I ever make female Morgan a General in an attempt to emulate male Morgan?

[Czar_Yoshi]

As long as Aggressor exists, male Morgan will always dish out more damage than his female pendant.

I was focusing on this here "always" bit and providing a counter-example. Simply dealing damage is definitely closer to Morgan-M's job description (due to being a male and thus spending most of his time in the back) and I agree that expecting F to do it better as her only goal is kind of ignoring her other roles, but you said always and I clearly demonstrated that that is not always the case.

[Knusperkeks]

Weaknesses can be done away with good play and knowledge of the game. If one has enough of the two, there will never be an instance in which a human weakness gets punished by the AI. Thus, the best way to play the game with optimization in mind, is to accentuate strengths to the extreme.

No support will ever out-damage Vaike!Gerome!Morgan when it comes to physical damage. This is what I meant with always.

When I say 'always', I assume the player is actually trying to accomplish something difficult and doing his utmost best to reach that goal. Fooling around with female Morgan as a General is wasting her potential. Extremes are all that matters post-game.

Nobody cares about a random person steamrolling Apotheosis with Limit Breaker, Aggressor, All+2, Rally Heart. My 9 year old sister can do that if I show her what she has to do.

People care about challenges. Contrary to popular belief, I'm certain that the developers never intended Apotheosis to be reliant on any DLC skills or classes at all. In fact, extreme modifier stacking on units is what enables challenge runs in the first place.

Making female Morgan a General just for the sake of her having the same ATK as male Morgan's Berserker is pointless. The two classes serve completely different purposes.

Even if I embark on your futile female General Morgan vs. Male Berserker Morgan scenario: It's clear as day that the support unit deals more damage than the lead unit. Just because they have the same ATK stat doesn't mean they're equal.

General S support gives +8 Str, +10 Def.

Berserker S support gives +10 Str, +8 Spd.

Which pair do you think will perform better. The one with a Berserker pair-up or the one with a General pair-up?

TL;DR: If you care about optimization, you will never make male Morgan a primary lead unit. That doesn't mean he won't have Galeforce to switch in from time to time to do a 1-2-1, where 1 is Morgan's partner and 2 is Morgan himself.

Male Morgan will always deal more damage than female Morgan when it matters, namely when Morgan is the support unit in a pair which allows Morgan to perform up to 8 attacks per engagement.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[burgerkong]

TL;DR: If you care about optimization, you will never make male Morgan a primary lead unit. That doesn't mean he won't have Galeforce to switch in from time to time to do a 1-2-1, where 1 is Morgan's partner and 2 is Morgan himself.

Male Morgan will always deal more damage than female Morgan when it matters, namely when Morgan is the support unit in a pair which allows Morgan to perform up to 8 attacks per engagement.

I think what Czar is getting at is that the whole Aggressor + -faire Support role is something every Male has access to, whereas front Luna + Aether is a niche that is fulfilled by 4 characters, counting Chrom. It's obviously not important from an optimization standpoint, but most of the people posting in this thread don't find optimization and challenge runs necessarily fun.

Morgan certainly does the Agg+-faire support role best, but there's nothing Morgan doesn't do best :P

Obviously there's a lot of things that aren't the best for consistency or optimization (i.e. not running VVDS+ wherever possible), but contributors are answering questions and catering to the people who post in this thread, not to the challenge-runners who've already cracked Apotheosis open like you have.

Yes, Male Morgan is better on paper by virtue of being Male, having access to Aggressor, and being able to marry Lucina for VVDS+. But for people who ARE looking to just get through Apotheosis for their first time and have a grand old stomping with their desired pairings, Female Morgan running around Aethering people is their definition of fun.

Anyways, I was looking to make sure my calculations were correct before going through them all with my pairs (these were done in Google Docs, hence the font). Hopefully you or Czar can make sure I've accounted for everything (separated WRB and included damage with WTD):

VS. Anna (Wave 5)

Aether | Counter | Dragonskin | Rightful God | Vantage+

99 HP | 60 Str | 70 Skl | 70 Spd | 65 Lck | 55 Def (+3 Throne) | 55 Res (+3 Throne)

• Avoid: [(70*3) + 65]/2 = 137 + 20 (Throne) = 157

• Damage: 60 (Str) + 19 (Weapon) = 79 (76 with WTD)

  • Weapon: 9 (base Spear) + 2 (Weapon rank bonus) + 8 (haxforge) = 19

• Hit: [(70*3) + 65]/2 = 137 + 95 = 232 hit (212 with WTD)

  • Weapon: 70 (base Spear) + 5 (Weapon rank bonus) + 20 (haxforge) = 95

VS. Throne Berserker (Wave 4, Wave 5 (Throneless))

Counter | Dragonskin | Hawkeye | Luna+ | Aegis+

99 HP | 80 Str | 64 Spd | 65 Lck | 59 Def (+8 Helswath & Throne) | 55 Res (+3 Throne)

• Avoid: [(64*3) + 65]/2 = 128 + 20 (Throne) = 148

• Damage: 80 (Str) + 19 (Weapon) = 99 (98 with WTD)

  • Weapon: 18 (Helswath) + 1 (Weapon rank bonus)

If my calcs are correct, my MU!Lucina (+Mag) & Virion!Laurent has guaranteed kills on everything without procs, so if that's the case I'll just give Lucina either Deliverer for mobility or Armsthrift for convenience.

Edited April 26, 2015 by burgerkong

[Knusperkeks]

But for people who ARE looking to just get through Apotheosis for their first time and have a grand old stomping with their desired pairings, Female Morgan running around Aethering people is their definition of fun.

I know what Yoshi does, I'm just stimulating him with risky, distinct, questionable, half serious statements to spawn an intellectual discussion. I know he's got what he needs to participate in that. In fact I harbor great respect towards him for helping all the people out regularly, so much that I started thinking "I could answer this question, or I could wait for yoshi to do it in a more magnanimous fashion." Most of the time it's not even worth posting something because he covers most (and more) of what I would respond with himself.

Female Morgan running around Aethering people is their definition of fun.

Incidentally, I like Aether and Luna too. Much more than Vengeance. Because gambling is fun, and female Morgan is cute.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[sthbdis]

I just am not a fan of letting my characters get low health, even intentionally. Because I don't enjoy it. Ultimately this is a game to be enjoyed. Optimization is not necessary by any means. I've beaten apo with pairings that weren't "optimal." The reason I ask is because I really enjoy the aspect of thinking through all of this. The mental exercise of trying to come up with pairings that may be totally unnecessary and overkill is fun. Trying to figure out who does what best, and how, is fun.

If I wanted a primarily physical Morgan would Olivia!Lucina!Morgan be better or Sumia? I'm thinking Olivia because Morgan would get a +2 str and +7 speed (along with others, but those seem like the most important.) Would Morgan prefer the +0 str and +9 speed?

Edited April 26, 2015 by sthbdis

[varmlor]

I just wanted to thank Yoshi again for his help and ask one last question. :P

Sumia!Lucina is a very good unit, Sumia!Lucina!MorganF is a very good unit. How does Chrom!Cynthia!MorganF fare? MorganF would still get aether, but Lucina is free to s-rank with a unit other than MaMU, one with a lower set of stats but still accomplishes the support role "well enough". Is there any notable advantage one way or the other and if Chrom!Cynthia!MorganF was used, who would suit lucina as an S-Rank pair?

[Ownagepuffs]

I just am not a fan of letting my characters get low health, even intentionally. Because I don't enjoy it. Ultimately this is a game to be enjoyed. Optimization is not necessary by any means. I've beaten apo with pairings that weren't "optimal." The reason I ask is because I really enjoy the aspect of thinking through all of this. The mental exercise of trying to come up with pairings that may be totally unnecessary and overkill is fun. Trying to figure out who does what best, and how, is fun.

If I wanted a primarily physical Morgan would Olivia!Lucina!Morgan be better or Sumia? I'm thinking Olivia because Morgan would get a +2 str and +7 speed (along with others, but those seem like the most important.) Would Morgan prefer the +0 str and +9 speed?

Still Sumia dawg.

I just wanted to thank Yoshi again for his help and ask one last question. :P

Sumia!Lucina is a very good unit, Sumia!Lucina!MorganF is a very good unit. How does Chrom!Cynthia!MorganF fare? MorganF would still get aether, but Lucina is free to s-rank with a unit other than MaMU, one with a lower set of stats but still accomplishes the support role "well enough". Is there any notable advantage one way or the other and if Chrom!Cynthia!MorganF was used, who would suit lucina as an S-Rank pair?

S!L!M and C!C!M are the exact same unit. S!M!L gives Robin dual strike+, which is why it is generally assumed. If you decide to go with C!C!M, then Lucina should still marry a +Hit Berserker. Or a VV unit. Your call.

[burgerkong]

If I wanted a primarily physical Morgan would Olivia!Lucina!Morgan be better or Sumia? I'm thinking Olivia because Morgan would get a +2 str and +7 speed (along with others, but those seem like the most important.) Would Morgan prefer the +0 str and +9 speed?

Sumia is generally considered better overall (kickass Cynthia AND frees up Henry), but if you're talking about Lucina in vacuum, then it depends. For example, if you want to run Morgan as a Falcon Knight, both of them hit >50 Speed (and can thus double everything with a +0 Spd Pair Up), at which point you can just go for Olivia for the +2 Str. This only really applies for the high Speed cap classes (i.e. Assassin, Falcon Knight, etc.).

[Sentacotus]

Ok so here's the scenario trying to pair Panne up with someone. I have Ricken, Libra, and Kellam left. I paired her up with Kellam last time so I'm trying to decide between Ricken and Libra.

[Joycdonnell]

Ok so here's the scenario trying to pair Panne up with someone. I have Ricken, Libra, and Kellam left. I paired her up with Kellam last time so I'm trying to decide between Ricken and Libra.

Both gives Yarne Tomefaire & good mods to be Dread Fighter (or Sage) and accuracy skills for his Berzeker class (Hit+20 from Ricken & Hex/Anathema from Libra). In my opinion I would chose Ricken since yarne can go to Sniper and use his Bowfaire for his other classes like Warrior & Assassin (for Libra!Yarne only can see War Monk & maybe Sorc as new classes over Ricken!Yarne if you ommit Sage/Dread Fighter/Berzeker).

[Ownagepuffs]

Ok so here's the scenario trying to pair Panne up with someone. I have Ricken, Libra, and Kellam left. I paired her up with Kellam last time so I'm trying to decide between Ricken and Libra.

Flip a coin, then go with Libra. Hexathema Berserker. Ricken makes him a Hit +20 Berserker. Kellam makes him worthless

[Carmine Sword]

But Ownage, Kellam!Yarne was all the rage back in the day, so it must have some merit right?

[Knusperkeks]

But Ownage, Kellam!Yarne was all the rage back in the day, so it must have some merit right?

Once upon a time, Laplace's demon was also a thing, doesn't mean that it never changes.

[Carmine Sword]

You do realize I was joking, right?

[Knusperkeks]

Of course I did, did you realize I'm playing along?

[Joycdonnell]

I'm having fun critic spamming with Henry's Ruin and Henry!Cynthia's wrath-activated forged Sigurd's Lance vs Streetpass teams, so I want to try a serious -want try it too on normal/secret apo- higher critical rate (at least vs no-Aegis dudes) with Lon'qu!Laurent with a forged Katarina's Bolt (I have some Wilderwind tomes but those are 5 uses per tome & are annoying to get and no want him be Sorc).

the skills would be for him V/V/Wrath/Gamble/Focus or Anathema, so my question is which skills should have as minimun the support unit for give a good critical rate to Laurent (considering that both got rally skill/spectrum/heart bonus).