Is it possible to make an Est that's a high tier character?

[Chiki]

the definition of an est has nothing to do with tiers at all

Exactly. There's no arbitrary rule about tiers here: correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression you were arguing that Ests can only be in high tier for combat reasons. If you were, I see no reason to have this arbitrary rule; nothing like this is mentioned in the first post.

[CT075]

i wasn't implying that (although i can see how you'd get that now that i read it)

if anything i was favoring your side of the argument

Edited August 17, 2013 by CT075

[Chiki]

i wasn't implying that (although i can see how you'd get that now that i read it)

if anything i was favoring your side of the argument

Yeah, it was a little confusing.

[Baldrick]

It's cruelly ironic that Sara has passable bases but doesn't need them because of growths + promo gains + staff rank, but Miranda has not only bad bases but worse growths + promo gains and little non-combat utility.

[General Banzai]

Miranda does have Wrath though which is broke OP not to mention she promotes into a pretty boss ass class

Honestly though Sara Tina Miranda Homeros and all those other magey types have the exact same stat spread, ramming Mag Skl Spd and having pittance everything else. Miranda and Sara are going to be functionally equal combat units up until promotion, except Miranda has Wrath and I'm pretty sure slightly better defensive stats.

Sara has staves though so contest ended, Miranda go home plz

Wait she cant go home shes in my avatar

Edited August 18, 2013 by General Banzai

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Like I said who care about her HP and Def. At base she have 30% chance of avoiding any attack thank to Prayer + ~30% avoid, thanks to her stats.

With some investment, absolutely nothing can hit her.

Prayer + Wrath is a deadly combo, that will get rid of anyone who comes to close. All her important stats are good enough, and have pretty good growth.

Tina comes 4/5 level earlier, but she have 6 less level.

Actually, you obtain Linoan with 4 less level than Sara 2/3 chapter before (Linoan could also be considered an Est actually), and Eda and Homer just before.

There's also Sleuf, obtain just before at around the same level

Actually, the true Est here is Miranda, but she is pretty awfull, so everyone forget about her...

Archetypes doesn't work that well with FE5... May be one of the reason some likes it so much.

1. Prayer + Wrath is a bullshit crapshoot combo that does not work. FE5 is a game that is MASSIVELY biased to unit with high durability. Sara is the exact opposite of this. Why would I bet on 30% chance to survive to get a kill when literally everyone on the cast can survive 100% of the time AND get a kill?

We are talking about a game where the late game enemies can be compared to Base Stats Wendy here

2. Linoan has Resire

3. Characterization wise, FE5 do have a working archetype

Finn - Jeigan

2 FIghter

2 Lance Knight

Edited August 18, 2013 by Salesmaster MU

[BBM]

Both Evayle and Dagda fit the Jeigan archetype much better than Fin. He's more like the Franz if anything, if Franz came with a level boost.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Pretty sure Eyvel and Dagda is not a Horse Rider who acts as Leif Parental Figure and Guardian.

If Finn is not a Jeigan, neither is Titania

Eyvel is more like those character who is dead on arrival. See Elbert, or Greil(who by the way is clearly based on Eyvel)

Dagda.... okay this one is a bit more ambiguos

Edited August 18, 2013 by Salesmaster MU

[Baldrick]

Gameplay-based archetypes > story-based archetypes.

Otherwise, the Ests in the series would be Shanna, Florina and Rolf

[Jedi]

Pretty sure Eyvel and Dagda is not a Horse Rider who acts as Leif Parental Figure and Guardian.

If Finn is not a Jeigan, neither is Titania

Eyvel is more like those character who is dead on arrival. See Elbert, or Greil(who by the way is clearly based on Eyvel)

Dagda.... okay this one is a bit more ambiguos

Sothe is counted as a Jeigan when he isn't mounted so where is your logic against that, also last I checked Eyvel doesn't die.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

CRAP I forgot about Sothe

Conceded

As for Eyvel, I mean she is kinda simmilar to those "Main character father who is dead in story extremely early" kind of characters.

Except she does not actually die

Edited August 18, 2013 by Salesmaster MU

[Refa]

Both Evayle and Dagda fit the Jeigan archetype much better than Fin. He's more like the Franz if anything, if Franz came with a level boost.

If being a prepromote was the only qualification to be a Jeigan, then both Sigurd and Cuan would be Jeigans too.

[Baldrick]

Sothe is counted as a Jeigan when he isn't mounted so where is your logic against that, also last I checked Eyvel doesn't die.

Nuh-uh, he doesn't join in the first chapter. Jeigans have to join in the first chapter, or they're not true Jeigans. Of course, Edward the true Jeigan isn't mounted either so your point stands.

[Jedi]

CRAP I forgot about Sothe

Conceded

As for Eyvel, I mean she is kinda simmilar to those "Main character father who is dead in story extremely early" kind of characters.

Except she does not actually die

Ok, I get what you mean now haha. I was just a little confused with your wording of it that's all ^^;

Nuh-uh, he doesn't join in the first chapter. Jeigans have to join in the first chapter, or they're not true Jeigans. Of course, Edward the true Jeigan isn't mounted either so your point stands.

Well um.. I HAVE NOTHING haha

Edited August 18, 2013 by Folgore Red II

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Isn't Cuan usually considered to be one?

[Baldrick]

Well, he does fall off rather dramatically from chapter 4 onwards, so he kinda is.

[General Banzai]

Oifaye is the most glaring example of a Jeigan in FE4

[dondon151]

Sara comes late, has bad base stats, and requires training to be good. She's an Est. You're just telling me what I already know.

i don't think sara has bad stats

your claim that she has bad stats (14 HP, 0 def, 9 spd) is countered by my claim that she has good stats (11 mag, 12 skl... and 9 spd). she has enough in her base offensive stats to ORKO a good set of enemy types, and 3 short levels later, it doesn't matter anyway because she's getting +6 mag, +5 spd on top of whatever she gained with her 80% growths.

all she really cares about is using staves anyway, and all one needs there is a lot of mag and 10 skl.

[Chiki]

Even if she has a couple good stats (magic and skill) the rest are either okay (luck and speed) or absolutely horrible (she has the worst HP, def, build and even move in the game, the latter 3 she shares with other units).

I'd say overall she has bad bases, especially for that point in the game, when one's units will likely have everything close to capping by then.

All I need to make her fit into the definition of Est is that she has bad bases for that point in the game, so it's irrelevant whether or not she needs just a tiny bit of training to get up to par.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Chiki

[dondon151]

Even if she has a couple good stats (magic and skill) the rest are either okay (luck and speed) or absolutely horrible (she has the worst HP, def, build and even move in the game, the latter 3 she shares with other units).

I'd say overall she has bad bases, especially for that point in the game, when one's units will likely have everything close to capping by then.

stats hardly mean anything at all against FE5 enemies. that's like saying that FE7 marcus has bad stats later in the game because he's losing to sain.

[Chiki]

stats hardly mean anything at all against FE5 enemies. that's like saying that FE7 marcus has bad stats later in the game because he's losing to sain.

It's true that Sara's stats don't really matter, and that's exactly why Sara is so good.

But the definition of Est says you need to have relatively bad stats. An Est has to have bad stats compared to the player units in the chapter in which Est joins. Otherwise Nino wouldn't be an Est: her bases are much better than Erk's. An Est needs to be weak compared to the units you have when he or she joins.

Does Sara fit in these two categories? Yes. She has bad base stats compared to, say, Asvel at that point in the game when she joins. It's not relevant how quickly she improves as long as she needs babying of some sort.

That's how you make an Est good: find a way to make their stats not matter, and also find a way to make them improve very quickly. FE5 does this by giving Sara a great staff rank and making stats not very important, and it also gives her Paragon and makes her 3 levels away from promotion.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Chiki

[dondon151]

But the definition of Est says you need to have relatively bad stats. An Est has to have bad stats compared to the player units in the chapter in which Est joins.

1. there is no definition of the est archetype

2. said hypothetical definition doesn't specify if the stats are bad relative to other player units or enemies

and regarding point 2, sara's base stats are definitely not bad relative to enemies.

[Chiki]

1. there is no definition of the est archetype

2. said hypothetical definition doesn't specify if the stats are bad relative to other player units or enemies

and regarding point 2, sara's base stats are definitely not bad relative to enemies.

Uh, you just quoted the definition where I said "player."

An Est has to have bad stats compared to the player units in the chapter in which Est joins.

It's true that there is no one definition of the Est archetype that we all agree on, but I can't imagine Ests having bad stats compared to the enemy, simply because everyone considers Nino is an Est and she's slightly comparable to enemy units in HHM. Example from 28x:

1x Druid lvl 8 (Luna/Sleep)

HP 33, Atk 23, AS 7, Hit 119, Avo 14, Def 6, Res 17, Crit 26, Ddg 0

Nino can double this Druid with her 11 speed base, and she only has 2 less def than this druid.

It's very clearly not compared to the enemy: can you imagine how much easier it would be in ENM than in HHM?

Edited August 18, 2013 by Chiki

[CT075]

I'd say overall she has bad bases, especially for that point in the game, when one's units will likely have everything close to capping by then.

in fe5 this is actually completely irrelevant because of fe5's stat caps

you cite her 9 speed as one of her bad bases (her hp and defense are kind of unsalvageable so i'm not even going to bother there). even assuming she gets no speed on the three levels to promotion (80% growth), she gets +5 speed on promo leaving her at 14 speed, which is more respectable than it looks (six points down from capping)

[Chiki]

The definiton of Est doesn't say anything about FE5's stat caps being irrelevant--all that matters is that you have relatively worse stats compared to other units.

Secondly, I am well aware that Sara gains +5 speed. But she still needs to be babied, even though it's a very little amount. That's what makes Sara so good: she needs to be babied very little. Hence why she goes into high tier.

An Est is, in my opinion:

1. A unit who has relatively worse stats compared to your other units

2. A unit who comes late

3. A unit who is low leveled

4. A unit who has high growths, or potential in whatever way

Imagine adding 5:

5. FE5's stat caps don't matter.

Seems silly no? That's a very ad hoc argument--that is, I don't see why it's logically necessary to add the unnecessary fact that, for some reason, FE5's stat caps don't matter just to say that Sara isn't an Est.

Sara seems to fit all of these.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Chiki