Kirby Mafia - Game Over

[Refa]

someone else please post

Wow, I am not impressed by Refa's reaction to my vote at all. In his response, he uses graspy reasoning, padded wording, and repetition to make it sound like his response to me is far stronger than it is,

Please cite specific examples.

when what his case actually boils down to is "don't forget WIFOM, and also you didn't point out all the scummy things I did, and also OMGUS."

Nice use of Reductio Ad Absurdum (oversimplication) there. Firstly, there was no use of WIFOM (which to my knowledge, is trying to determine the actions of someone who acted with full knowledge), as I stated you made several erroneous claims, and then agreed with what BBM said about distancing yourself from scorri. The fact that I have flawed arguments and am willing to admit it is a null read at best, until you examine the motivations behind them. I called you out on failing to do so, whereas a townie would have at least cited one of them. In addition, why would I OMGUS when a) I didn't have any votes on me besides you, not even close to a lynch, and b) haven't had any previous instances of doing so.

This whole line at the beginning doesn't actually strengthen Grassbridger's argument, but is instead used to throw my credibility into question before his actual argument begins, thus making the reader more inclined to agree with him.

First, I didn't say you must be Mafia, I said (or implied by my vote) that you are the most likely to be mafia out of yourself, Kay, and BBM.

Distancing; if I get mislynched as a townie, you could simply cover it up by saying "Well, he was the most likely, but I wasn't 100% sure...". By voting me, you are stating that you are willing to lynch me, which is the important point here.

I also said that that if you are not scum BBM is also probably not scum, so it's really between you and Kay for my vote.

What is the connection between me and BBM? Also weak wording there, as when you say "BBM is probably not scum" if I am scum, that implies there is a chance that he could be scum. Therefore the vote should be between all three of us, rather than just me and Kay.

Of course there's an obvious WIFOM aspect to scorri's play: was she helping out a scumbuddy or was she painting a target? My argument was that she was helping out a scumbuddy.

There is not. We know, 100% for sure, that scorri is mafia. You say that she was helping out a scumbuddy (in this scenario, me), but this assumes suboptimal play on her part. One of the main agendas for mafia is to hide/blind in, and by putting me as her #1 town lead, scorri did exactly the opposite. In addition, if I were to be lynched first, people would be rather suspicious of scorri come next day, which is a rather poor strategy when mafia should instead be distancing itself from each other.

In my scenario, she is painting a target. This all started when she gave me Ninja. She also had me as her number 1 town read. Considering that you were willing to lynch me simply for being the Ninja, it is rather incredulous that scorri would put me as her #1 town lead despite that. In addition, scorri went out of her way to defend me when I was absent. Considering I was under a lot of suspicion at the time, this has a two fold benefit. If I were to be lynched first, it would give scorri some easy town cred. However, if scorri was to be lynched first, it would allow her mafia buddies to live on another day by painting me as a target.

So, the serial killer must have killed either Jalmont or SB. My theory that scum killed Jalmont was not actually based on the idea that scum wanted ninja therefore they didn't kill tracker, my theory was that scum killed Jalmont because scorri was scum and Jalmont would have used his free lynch on scorri. So, I had arrived at the conclusion that scum didn't kill the tracker BEFORE looking at the question of whether you were scum, Refa.

Considering that jalmont's vote was on Shin, even if he said he was willing to lynch scorri, it logically follows that the person he is voting for is the person he is most likely to lynch. So I don't buy that mafia had to kill Jalmont off. In fact, I'd think if mafia had Ninja, they'd be more liable to kill Objection off ASAP, as he could empower the Tracker and make the Ninja useless, in addition to allowing the town to get more reads.

Also, using "proved" makes it sound like you actually proved something of value. All you said is that there are downsides as well as upsides to PAINTING YOUR SCUMBUDDY WITH A GIANT TARGET while giving them a useful role, which I think is kind of obvious.

Before you try to ding me on repetitive information, yes some of this is summarizing what I said before in a more digestible format, making it harder for you and other players to glance over.

Upsides To Giving Scum Buddy Ninja

+You don't have to worry about tracker for a while

Downsides To Giving Scum Buddy Ninja

-It correlates you two together, so if either of you is lynched, the other one is in trouble

-Empower goes through it, so you'd have to get rid of ASAP. Otherwise, the upside of not worrying about tracker is null.

Upsides To Painting A Townie As Ninja

+Mafia members defending said townie will get instant town credit if the townie in question gets lynched

+If the mafia member who gave the role gets lynched, then remaining mafia members have an easier time on the next day while all suspicion is laid on the townie

Downsides To Giving A Townie Ninja

(there are none, unless someone is willing to prove me wrong)

Excuse me? You're finding me scummy because I didn't use enough arguments to attack you? That's preposterous, and you're grasping. There is absolutely no reason to believe that town would put in more effort than scum in my situation.

I'm calling you out on the fact that you're only looking at one specific argument against me to determine if I'm scum rather than reading back on my previous arguments, yes. A townie would put in more effort because they have much more to lose in case of a mislynch.

What your actual argument consists of is "I find him scummy because he didn't find me scummy enough, when he could have found me more scummy." Now, yes, the first part of that is a reasonable argument if I'm putting down a weak vote early in the game, unprompted, etc., but on day 3, when there's a lot of PoE we can do and I'm voting between 3 people, and your point wasn't that I didn't have anything to go on but I was missing flaws in your posts (i.e. "I'm scummier than he's telling you), it's just silly.

Already replied to this argument like twice, but I want to respond to the highlighted bit in question. Later on, your reads should be getting more and more detailed, not less because PoE.

In fairness though (and to let others convince me I'm wrong, if they think so), here's some counterpoints that suggest Refa is town.

Something about this whole defense really bothers me. It's like "hey guys, I think Refa is scum, but if it turns out we mislynched him, let it be known that I had my misgivings about it." If you really had so many misgivings as a townie, perhaps you should have thought twice before voting to lynch me.

1. During N1, Scorri waffled on her Jalmont scumread when asked to reconsider it. If she knew he was about to die, there was room to back much further off her scumread than she did. This makes me less sure that Jalmont was the mafia kill, but I just don't see anyone else killing Jalmont right away, so I still think it's more likely that Jalmont was the scum kill and SB was the SK kill.

Notice nothing new is brought up here. Grassbridger brings up a theory that could be refuted with something as simple as "why wouldn't SK want to kill Jalmont", but then says that he ultimately thinks his theory is right, so how the hell is this in defense of me?

2. According to BBM, Ninja wasn't the most powerful role left for scum at the time scorri was picking; Ascetic was. So, based on my previous reasoning about Ninja, there could be a scum among me/Cam/Objection/BBM, who scorri was hoping would end up with the Ascetic role. (Note that just because I ended up with the Ascetic role doesn't by itself make me scummy, because I was assigned the role by a flipped townie.) But of course this all depends on scum's determination of the relative value of roles.

First you say that perhaps Ninja wasn't the highest priority for mafia, but then you say it all depends on something that noone can actually determine. So yeah, another point that actually does nothing to defend me.

3. If scum was going to kill the tracker N1 (which I still find unlikely, because then why did SK kill Jalmont?), then they wouldn't "need" Ninja, as has been pointed out several times, so scorri gives it to "her strongest townread", and if there is scum remaining scorri hopes Ascetic falls to them.

Really? Why did the SK kill Jalmont, who can instantly lynch anyone? Also again, another "point in my defense" that is a) attached to a statement that says "but I am subtley disagreeing with it" and b) actually does nothing to help defend me. Heck, some of these points are based on my original arguments, which were the reason he found me scummy in the first place. And now he's using them to defend me. Definite contradiction.

[Grassbridger]

Okay, I'll go through and bold things I consider to be graspy or poor reasoning, and underline things I consider to be padded language or repetition to make your post look longer.

Also, I'll mark with asterisks places where you refer to WIFOM without actually saying so.

Aha, makes sense.

Anyways, the thing that bothers me about Grassbridger's vote is that it's based on the fact that I'm the Ninja and a Mafia member got lynched, specifically the one who gave me Ninja in the first place. Therefore, I must be Mafia, because Ninja is a desirable position for Mafia to have. Regarding the death of the Tracker, that was not done by Mafia at all (because Mafia already has Ninja), but by the SK who is believed to exist in this game.

Thinking things through this single train of thought is misleading though. He's assuming that mafia inherently wanted ninja. However, being the ninja is pretty much painting a target over yourself, as it is a mafia role after all. The benefits to having ninja are greatly outweighed by the risks, considering they could just lynch SB day 1 and be done with it. In addition, by giving a non-Mafia the role, it would be easier for them to paint an easy lynch target later on, if that was necessary. Remember how scorri called me her strongest town read? I find that suspicious too, for entirely different reasons. As mafia's goal is to blend in, it would do better to put fellow members in the Null Read in case the person in question gets caught, their buddies don't instantly take the fall come next day. ***So by putting me on the top of her null reads, I think scorri just made it easier for me to be a simple lynch target.***

I'll be short about the second assumption as Boron already went over it (she ninja'd me in a sense, lol), but by assuming that mafia wanted ninja, he could then make the claim that there would be no reason for them to kill the tracker and it must have been done by the SK. However, if mafia didn't want ninja (as I proved earlier, there were benefits to not taking it), then this whole premise falls apart. Then mafia would have all of the reason to kill SB on day 1.

So all of this, in addition to what BBM said at the beginning of this page, makes me a hella lot more suspicious of Grassbridger than I previously was. And really, I'd think a townie would pull more than just this to prove that I'm a scum. I have several arguments pages back, and quite a few of them are flawed. Seeing as a townie's job is to catch scum, they'd try to build at least a bigger case than what everyone can see with their eyes; whereas I believe that Grassbridger is trying to go for the easy lynch on me, which was set up well in advance.

##Vote: Grassbridger

Also just an aside, but the existence of SK hasn't been confirmed yet. Grassbridger, why are you so confident about this?

Your second post is also full of mistakes. More to follow to support that assertion. Everyone else, I apologize for the ever-expanding walls of text.

[Grassbridger]

Prims: Can you clarify the Tracker/Empowerer/Ninja interaction?

Nice use of Reductio Ad Absurdum (oversimplication) there.

Nope that's not what Reductio Ad Absurdum is. It's proof by contradiction. Look it up.

Firstly, there was no use of WIFOM (which to my knowledge, is trying to determine the actions of someone who acted with full knowledge),

When scum says "I have a strong townread on this person" and then flips, the scum knows whether or not that person is town, and everyone else is trying to guess.

as I stated you made several erroneous claims,

In your post where you voted me you did not say any claims I made were erroneous, where did you state this?

and then agreed with what BBM said about distancing yourself from scorri.

No, I agreed with his PoE (process of elimination) reasoning that eliminated Objection, Shinori, Boron, Kirsche.

The fact that I have flawed arguments and am willing to admit it is a null read at best, until you examine the motivations behind them. I called you out on failing to do so, whereas a townie would have at least cited one of them.

You're assuming I'm playing optimally, which I'm definitely not. Also, why would a townie have cited an argument but a scum wouldn't have?

In addition, why would I OMGUS when a) I didn't have any votes on me besides you, not even close to a lynch, and b) haven't had any previous instances of doing so.

OMGUS stands for Oh My God, You (U) Suck. The whole point is that it's not based on anything other than being voted for, so all the factors you raised are irrelevant.

This whole line at the beginning doesn't actually strengthen Grassbridger's argument, but is instead used to throw my credibility into question before his actual argument begins, thus making the reader more inclined to agree with him.

Giving a summary at the start of the argument (i.e. an introduction) is a common and unremarkable thing to do. This is some of the graspiest reasoning I've ever seen.

Distancing; if I get mislynched as a townie, you could simply cover it up by saying "Well, he was the most likely, but I wasn't 100% sure...". By voting me, you are stating that you are willing to lynch me, which is the important point here.

Of course I'm not 100% sure. That's how this game works. Only scum are 100% sure of alignments. I'm not distancing, I'm trying to demonstrate a pattern of you misrepresenting my claims.

What is the connection between me and BBM? Also weak wording there, as when you say "BBM is probably not scum" if I am scum, that implies there is a chance that he could be scum. Therefore the vote should be between all three of us, rather than just me and Kay.

The connection is that when scorri was picking, you were both still available. Based on my "assign Ninja to scum" hypothesis, she would not have assigned Ninja to town!you if there was still a scum among the other people left (me, Cam, BBM, Objection). Your probabilistic logic also sucks: if BBM is scum, then you are scum (in this reasoning), so why would I ever vote for him when there is a chance that you are scum and he isn't, but there's no chance (in this reasoning) that he is scum and you aren't?

There is not [WIFOM]. We know, 100% for sure, that scorri is mafia. You say that she was helping out a scumbuddy (in this scenario, me), but this assumes suboptimal play on her part. One of the main agendas for mafia is to hide/blind in, and by putting me as her #1 town lead, scorri did exactly the opposite. In addition, if I were to be lynched first, people would be rather suspicious of scorri come next day, which is a rather poor strategy when mafia should instead be distancing itself from each other.

As I explain above, she knows whether or not you're scum. The very fact that you're using her painting a target on you in your own defense means that obviously, the play wasn't as suboptimal as you claim. There are many ways to play this game as scum; blending in is only one of them. Furthermore, Scorri pushed hard on the Jalmont lynch to protect her teammate, so she's clearly not afraid of pushing a read to protect a buddy.

In my scenario, she is painting a target. This all started when she gave me Ninja. She also had me as her number 1 town read. Considering that you were willing to lynch me simply for being the Ninja, it is rather incredulous that scorri would put me as her #1 town lead despite that.

Nope. Once again, you misrepresent my claim. It's not simply for being Ninja. It's for having been given Ninja by a scum member who was also defending you a lot.

In addition, scorri went out of her way to defend me when I was absent. Considering I was under a lot of suspicion at the time, this has a two fold benefit. If I were to be lynched first, it would give scorri some easy town cred. However, if scorri was to be lynched first, it would allow her mafia buddies to live on another day by painting me as a target.

OR IT WOULD PREVENT YOU FROM BEING LYNCHED and then you could use the exact defense you are using right now. You say scum planned from the beginning to paint you; I say you and Scorri agreed for her to paint you so you could use that defense.

Considering that jalmont's vote was on Shin, even if he said he was willing to lynch scorri, it logically follows that the person he is voting for is the person he is most likely to lynch.

Actually, this point is well taken. I reread Jalmont's ISO twice looking for who he attacked, and I somehow missed this. But you're right, he wasn't just tunnelling scorri. On the other hand, Shin was town, not scum or SK, so the point is kind of moot when it comes to assessing killing motivation.

So I don't buy that mafia had to kill Jalmont off. In fact, I'd think if mafia had Ninja, they'd be more liable to kill Objection off ASAP, as he could empower the Tracker and make the Ninja useless, in addition to allowing the town to get more reads.

Eh it had already been decided that Objection needed to be on Shinori.

Before you try to ding me on repetitive information, yes some of this is summarizing what I said before in a more digestible format, making it harder for you and other players to glance over. That is, repeating and padding? Hmm that sounds familiar

Upsides To Giving Scum Buddy Ninja

+You don't have to worry about tracker for a while

Downsides To Giving Scum Buddy Ninja

-It correlates you two together, so if either of you is lynched, the other one is in trouble

-Empower goes through it, so you'd have to get rid of ASAP. Otherwise, the upside of not worrying about tracker is null.

I'm not sure this is true.

Upsides To Painting A Townie As Ninja

+Mafia members defending said townie will get instant town credit if the townie in question gets lynched

+If the mafia member who gave the role gets lynched, then remaining mafia members have an easier time on the next day while all suspicion is laid on the townie

Downsides To Giving A Townie Ninja

(there are none, unless someone is willing to prove me wrong)

A very, very obvious one: YOU DON'T GET NINJA.

I'm calling you out on the fact that you're only looking at one specific argument against me to determine if I'm scum rather than reading back on my previous arguments, yes. A townie would put in more effort because they have much more to lose in case of a mislynch.

False, actually. Scum have a lot more to lose in the case of a correct lynch than townies have to lose in the case of a mislynch.

Already replied to this argument like twice, but I want to respond to the highlighted bit in question. Later on, your reads should be getting more and more detailed, not less because PoE.

Eh I see what you're saying WRT having more material to work with, but PoE *does* allow for "townreads on other people" to be more of a valid reason compared with "scumread on my vote target". Not entirely, ok, but somewhat. I think the correct thing is somewhere in between these things.

Something about this whole defense really bothers me. It's like "hey guys, I think Refa is scum, but if it turns out we mislynched him, let it be known that I had my misgivings about it." If you really had so many misgivings as a townie, perhaps you should have thought twice before voting to lynch me.

First, I'm going to be a leading wagon today (or I'd be very surprised if I wasn't), so (a) I'm going to be willing to lynch most people who aren't me, and that's regardless of alignment and (b) I feel I've been playing pretty poorly, so I want to present the data I've found and let people convince me. THAT SAID, I find your "perhaps you should have thought twice before voting to lynch me" to be a strange, aggressive way of phrasing things that seems kind of over-defensive and scummy.

Notice nothing new is brought up here. Grassbridger brings up a theory that could be refuted with something as simple as "why wouldn't SK want to kill Jalmont", but then says that he ultimately thinks his theory is right, so how the hell is this in defense of me?

Actually I did bring up something new, to my knowledge: nobody else has discussed how scorri's Jalmont read interacted with the mafia kill and the SK kill that night. Of course, it's rather specific to my theory, which places importance on who killed who, but it's still something new.

First you say that perhaps Ninja wasn't the highest priority for mafia, but then you say it all depends on something that noone can actually determine. So yeah, another point that actually does nothing to defend me.

Generally, what I'm doing with these points is saying "hey, look, here are some arguments for why I might be wrong. Right now, they don't convince me, and here's why." The implied part of that is "if they SHOULD convince me/I'm missing something/I'm over- or under-valuing one of these pieces of information, please tell me what it is."

Really? Why did the SK kill Jalmont, who can instantly lynch anyone? Also again, another "point in my defense" that is a) attached to a statement that says "but I am subtley disagreeing with it" and b) actually does nothing to help defend me. Heck, some of these points are based on my original arguments, which were the reason he found me scummy in the first place. And now he's using them to defend me. Definite contradiction.

Jalmont wasn't probably going to kill anyone but Scorri or (as you pointed out) Shin, in my opinion, at least not D2. Paperblade was a far more dangerous target, as he didn't have to prep his action and also is a better player who wasn't tunnelling.

In summary: nearly everything you said about me was wrong or a misrep or leaving out half the argument and refusing to admit it.

[Sunwoo]

Oh boy, I love tunnel wars.

Kay, is there anyone else you'd be willing to lynch besides me.

kirsche, is there anyone else you'd be willing to lynch besides Kay.

Refa, is there anyone else you'd be willing to lynch besides Grassbridger.

Grassbridger, is there anyone else you'd be willing to lynch besides Refa.

Shinori and Objection, do you have anything to say at all.

Mafia or SK, can you kill me tonight.

[Zkirsche]

I said yesterday I'm fine with Refa and I probably won't cry if we decide on GB because he's done nothing particularly town-worthy and his role doesn't bring much. My stance on Shinori is getting worse too, but I don't want to lynch cop unless I'm sure and he hasn't done anything that isn't really like him.

[Sunwoo]

I'm going to respond to this one point then not look at this topic again until I'm off for work.

This looks really weird imo. Would you rather not vote for him, or would you rather not lynch him? Because making sure there's someone else who will vote for him instead seems weird. I guess holding onto your vote in case of a last minute switch makes some sense, but I'd be more inclined to look at it that way if you made more of an argument against it.

I said that I'd rather not vote Shin, which means that I'd rather not lynch him. I was asking if there was anyone around who could lay down a vote because while I didn't want to lynch Shin, if we couldn't secure a lynch then that puts us one step closer to universal loss and no flips means less info to work off on.

I mean ... this is extreme nitpicking. What makes me asking if people are able to get consolidation without my vote any different than people saying, "I really don't want to vote X but if I had to consolidate I will"? You criticized Grassbridger for his obsession with BBM's language or choice of words, but isn't this pretty much the same thing?

[Refa]

Oh boy, I love tunnel wars.

Refa, is there anyone else you'd be willing to lynch besides Grassbridger.

Yeah, Imma stop now, nothing is going to get solved this way. I'd be willing to lynch Kay, and maybe Objection (if a bandwagon starts on him, I'd have to read all of his stuff), but not really anyone else.

[Zkirsche]

Objection is a cleared inno, Refa, and yet you'd be happy to lynch him?

[Refa]

Objection is a cleared inno, Refa, and yet you'd be happy to lynch him?

Really? AFAIK he just said he empowered Shinori. People are assuming that if he was mafia or SK, he would lie about the empowering and subsequently get caught because the odds are against him. But couldn't he just empower Shinori and attempt to kill someone anyways? Worse case scenario, someone doesn't get killed, but that would just give him more town cred.

Basically I find Grassbridger and Kay scummy, Objection as a null read, and everyone else leaning town. So yes, I would lynch Objection if neither Kay nor Grassbridger were acceptable wagons.

[Sunwoo]

Shinori said that he scanned Objection last night and he turned up town.

[Refa]

*facepalm* OK, so just Kay and Grassbridger then...

[Grassbridger]

Refa, please read the thread more carefully, this isn't the first time you've missed a fact that someone else had brought up a while before (like not knowing the reasoning why there's an SK, not knowing I'd already given an explanation re: Tracker/Ninja, probably a few other things). Just to be clear/avoid treading VERY-well-trodden ground, this is separate from our arguments about the legitimacy of my vote on you, or whatever it was we were doing just there.

I'd have to reread on Kay and BBM before I say that I'm willing to lynch either of them. Dunno if I have time to do that without outside prompting.

[Sunwoo]

I'd have to reread on Kay and BBM before I say that I'm willing to lynch either of them. Dunno if I have time to do that without outside prompting.

Well you'd better do that reread sometime before D3 is over, because if Refa gets lynched and flips town then congratulations you spent all of D3 tunneling on a townie and now you have nothing for D4. Even if Refa gets lynched and flips scum, we have at least two anti-town people left, so it wouldn't hurt trying to figure out who else you're suspicious of. There's no guarantee that town will lynch who you want to be lynched, so knowing what to think of other players besides the one you're focusing on is never negative.

Really stupid borderline meta here, but I'm becoming less and less inclined to want to lynch Refa. Scum wouldn't want to tie themselves to one another the way scorri did by giving Refa ninja and calling him her towniest read. One could argue WIFOM and this is what scum want us to think in the first place, but I'm not willing to delve that far into WIFOM. Also, you'd think that if Refa had scum buddies they would tell him that Objection was clear and blah blah.

Also, Grassbridger, the way you're trying to argue who killed who and trying to fit it into your theory to lynch Refa really bugs me. The only people who know for certain who killed SB and who killed Jalmont are the scum team and the SK themselves. I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm not going to lynch someone based on a theory that makes too many assumptions.

In Touhou mafia, in MYLO, I had mistakenly made the assumption that BBM was town because I assumed that scum!scorri could only send her knowledge to townies, since the everyone else who had received her information was town. Everyone in the game thread and the graveyard rightfully called me out on it, because it was a stupid assumption to make. Likewise, unless you know for certain that SK killed the tracker and scum killed Jalmont, it's not a foolproof theory and I'm not prepared to lynch Refa over it since we don't know for certain who killed who.

[BBM]

I think I'm in favour of lynching GB over Refa. The real basis of his argument against Refa is really just that Scorri gave him ninja and defended him. Anything beyond that is mostly just padding/repetition, which isn't actually all that bad if you're still saying something, and graspy reasoning, which tbh I'm not really seeing. The thing that mostly makes me feel that GB is scummy is because in some places he counters Refa's defence by saying "WIFOM is invalid, Scorri buddied with you because you're scum" and then in other places he counters it by going one stage further in WIFOM. Mainly, he said at least once that "Scorri buddied with you because she knew others would think that her buddying with you made you town".

[Refa]

Refa, please read the thread more carefully, this isn't the first time you've missed a fact that someone else had brought up a while before (like not knowing the reasoning why there's an SK, not knowing I'd already given an explanation re: Tracker/Ninja, probably a few other things). Just to be clear/avoid treading VERY-well-trodden ground,

Sorry, that is definitely something I could do a far better job at.

[Grassbridger]

Okay, a few things.

1. My theory that scum killed Jalmont (and yes, I recognize that it is just a theory) came before I made any view on Refa (go back to the part where I said a scumteam with scorri on it would be more likely to kill Jalmont first) so, Boron, I'm not just fitting things in to push Refa.

2. BBM: when I'm invoking WIFOM, I'm not trying to argue that Refa's argument is invalid, only pointing out that he's claiming there's only one side (scorri would never tie herself that strongly to a scumbuddy) where there's obviously two sides (since he's even using that defense, it could have been a preplanned thing among scum). He seemed to be trying to invalidate my argument by saying "but you're not considering that scorri would never do that", while I'm saying "maybe she would for the sake of WIFOM". I'm not really making any claims about the relative likelihood of these two scenarios being correct. And actually, in my #725 I admitted that my arguments weren't actually convincing me on their own, and the reason I was still voting Refa was his reaction to my vote.

Y'all seem to be portraying my vote on Refa as due to the Ninja role--it's not anymore, it's due to his reaction to my vote post and the follow-ups.

Boron brings up a good point and I'll do a reread if I have time. I have no idea how to find a serial killer, though.

[Shinori]

Sorry I was busy today. Extremely so. I'll be back in about 3 hours or so and I can post something. So sorry. >_<

[Shinori]

Actuall yI might be able to do something now. Let me see if I can.

[Shinori]

Shinori asked why I was ignoring him, and by lack of content, I meant in the Shin vote post.

I simply asked why you were ignoring me if you were so pissed about me supposedly ignoring you. Please don't say I wasn't calling you out for a lack of content because I wasn't doing that.

[Sunwoo]

1. My theory that scum killed Jalmont (and yes, I recognize that it is just a theory) came before I made any view on Refa (go back to the part where I said a scumteam with scorri on it would be more likely to kill Jalmont first) so, Boron, I'm not just fitting things in to push Refa.

The thing is, Grassbridger, your theory is still an unconfirmed theory. Unless you're scum or SK, you don't know for certain who killed Jalmont and who killed SB. Therefore, the SK could have killed Jalmont and scum could have killed SB. Which is why I am not buying this theory. I don't know who killed who, and I'm not going to make assumptions about who killed who when I have no evidence to believe so. Did scum have reason to kill Jalmont? Yes, because he wanted to lynch scorri. Did scum have reason to kill SB? Without the ninja, they would have reason, plus if I recall correctly SB looked pretty townish and no one really suspected him.

There is also the possibility that scum killed Jalmont anyway even though they didn't have ninja. Tracker can be a powerful role, but I find that it's a bit trickier to use and depends on the person having good reads or luck and is less useful than watcher. Scum could have still killed Jalmont and not have ninja.

[Prims]

Empower doesn't have any affect on a Ninja / Tracker interaction, since Ninjas don't block actions, just obfuscate results.

[Refa]

Empower doesn't have any affect on a Ninja / Tracker interaction, since Ninjas don't block actions, just obfuscate results.

I'll concede that point, then @Grassbridger.

[Shinori]

I actually kind of thought refa was definite town because of SB N1 kill until scorri flip so I'm not to sure on that now and need to think of that. Rereading posting tomorrow morning when I get up.

My vote and post will come tomorrow morning.

[Kay]

Oh boy, I love tunnel wars.

Kay, is there anyone else you'd be willing to lynch besides me.

kirsche, is there anyone else you'd be willing to lynch besides Kay.

Refa, is there anyone else you'd be willing to lynch besides Grassbridger.

Grassbridger, is there anyone else you'd be willing to lynch besides Refa.

Shinori and Objection, do you have anything to say at all.

Mafia or SK, can you kill me tonight.

Grass or maybe BBM. Also not terribly fond of Kevin despite Weapons screwing him over.

I'm going to respond to this one point then not look at this topic again until I'm off for work.

I said that I'd rather not vote Shin, which means that I'd rather not lynch him. I was asking if there was anyone around who could lay down a vote because while I didn't want to lynch Shin, if we couldn't secure a lynch then that puts us one step closer to universal loss and no flips means less info to work off on.

I mean ... this is extreme nitpicking. What makes me asking if people are able to get consolidation without my vote any different than people saying, "I really don't want to vote X but if I had to consolidate I will"? You criticized Grassbridger for his obsession with BBM's language or choice of words, but isn't this pretty much the same thing?

Am I correct in interpreting this as saying you weren't going to be around again before phase end, and didn't want to hammer unless it was necessary?

Kevin, regarding Scorri ignoring me, yeah, that's a thing, but she could just as easily figure I looked bad enough that I'd get lynched on my own, but defending me might tip the scales too much. idk.

[Sunwoo]

Grass or maybe BBM. Also not terribly fond of Kevin despite Weapons screwing him over.

Reasons?

Am I correct in interpreting this as saying you weren't going to be around again before phase end, and didn't want to hammer unless it was necessary?

How did you get that from what I even posted ... It means that I didn't want to lynch Shin because I didn't think he was scum, but if I absolutely had to vote him for the sake of consolidation and not putting us one step closer to a universal loss, then I'd do it just to avoid that. I did NOT want to vote him in the first place but I had to make sure that my actions weren't going to cause a no lynch, which most people consider to be bad.