Jill vs. Haar

[Chiki]

Haar can't reach Ludveck on turn 1 player phase. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IUwkXgtIa4Q

How do you propose a reliable 1 turn?

[Grace]

that video is doing it wrong

there's a specific square you can park haar on that draws ludveck on Turn 1 EP to 1-range, I just don't remember which one

edit: I do find it funny that you haven't figured this out yourself yet. vykan used it in his FE10 speedrun, so yeah. (that was NM but unless there's position changes (which I doubt) it should still work)

edit 2:

it's the blue square that i edited in. park haar there (requires leanne i think) and ludveck can only 1-range you, leaving hammertime to go

Edited September 9, 2013 by Manix

[Chiki]

I get the Energy Drop in my strategy, which is why I didn't know of 1 turning the map. I also don't use other people's strategies in my own runs, because any simpleton can steal strategies and use them to do an LTC run.

I'll go ahead and give part 2 to Haar--but this is not the argument that Jill's detractors want to accept. If you think about it, giving Haar the second most valuable stat resource (the Speedwing) gives him the same issue that Jill has with taking up resources.

Haar needs the Speedwing the function. So does Jill.

Jill does take a Dracoshield and etc. but none of these are as important as the Speedwing. Ike, for example, would like the Speedwing to patch up his poor growth, and so would Boyd.

This is not the argument that Jill's detractors wish to accept.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Celes

[Elieson]

I'll go ahead and give part 2 to Haar--but this is not the argument that Jill's detractors want to accept. If you think about it, giving Haar the second most valuable stat resource (the Speedwing) gives him the same issue that Jill has with taking up resources.

Haar needs the Speedwing the function.

So does Jill.

Jill does take a Dracoshield and etc. but none of these are as important as the Speedwing. Ike, for example, would like the Speedwing to patch up his poor growth, and so would Boyd.

We're not arguing Jill vs Ike/Boyd/whatever, (well, you're not). You're arguing Jill V Haar, and Jill needs more consumable resources to reliably replicate Haar's contributions. You're admitting it yourself, and that's why Haar's the better unit.

[Chiki]

I don't think you understand my point.

I don't think Haar should be penalized for needing the Speedwing, either.

Jill's detractors think there is an opportunity cost to taking these resources.

But there is an opportunity cost for Haar taking the Speedwing, as well.

This is not what the Jill detractors want to admit.

Hopefully that's clear.

[Grace]

I get the Energy Drop in my strategy, which is why I didn't know of 1 turning the map.

well then since you seem to be set on LTC... I would have thought you would have tried to figure out a way to reduce the turns. hmm? do I detect an inconsistency here? also, what's the drop specifically used for? does it save any turns wasted?

I also don't use other people's strategies in my own runs, because any simpleton can steal strategies and use them to do an LTC run.

since you're releasing strategies and stuff by making videos/playlogs (and others), you're promoting the very same thing you don't like. by doing that, you're making your strategies public domain, so others can use them. i really don't think you're being very consistent here in what you think. if you wanted to do it for bragging rights, just capture a pic of the final results, which is starting to tell me that you don't quite think through everything you say.

in regards in jill v haar itself: both have their uses. I found both of them useful to me when playing through HM, and each have their own, different contributions. I don't have an opinion which is better, because they're both very useful.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Manix

[Baldrick]

Jill's detractors think there is an opportunity cost to taking these resources.

But there is an opportunity cost for Haar taking the Speedwing, as well.

Of course. There's an opportunity cost for basically everything, the matter is finding out who has the lowest opportunity cost (i.e. who uses it the best). Haar has a low OC on the Wing, as does Jill with a Robe and Shield since her durability is lacking and she will see a lot of combat. The drop is middling, plenty of people would like more offense, and the Wing is high, considering what value she gets out of it.

You could say Jill flies, therefore she gets all the resources because Nolan can't, but that'd be rather hypocritical, considering you said Boyd wants Haar's speedwing.

I'm not a Jill detractor, I like female dragonknights and I like growth units, so I'll be happy to believe she's the best. However, if I try to fudge the facts to do so, I won't be taken seriously.

[Florete]

The only way to 1 turn reliably in HM...is to give the 2-3 Speedwing to Haar. Done. Oh and give him a Hammer. It's not hard.

@ Fox- it was proven a while ago that Haar is unbeatable in drafts. The only way it can happen is if the haar team gets screwed beyond belief and the other teams get absurd combos like Edward/Jill, Elincia and Oscar together. It's not happening ever otherwise. Remember that Haar has 2-E on top of some exclusive Part 3 turnshaves and the best Part 4 in every route you want.

All that was proven is that he's the best unit to draft, not that he's "unbeatable," because that's not true. In the hands of a good player his team will probably win, but it's not nearly some Seth-level of dominance and there will always be a best unit. It would be a better idea to introduce something new to the rules that weakens him, like the BEXP limits in FE9 that drop Marcia and Jill but still keep them as the strongest drafts.

2-E can be cleared just as fast with Elincia and certain other combinations of units, like Marcia + Brom.

The only part 3 maps Haar can be argued to exclusively shave turns in are 3-3 and 3-4. Titania can replicate him otherwise until 3-11, at which point you have Seraphs and Hawks to take over.

For the sake of this topic, Jill is a better part 4 unit due to higher Spd and better caps overall. For drafts, there's still Jill, and while the Seraphs aren't quite as good, they can replicate a lot of what he does. Come Endgame, E-1 is all Haar is anything special for. Plenty of units are better later due to either having Swords (Wyrmslayer) for E-3 or appropriate Spd for E-4 and E-5. Laguz Royals in particular shine there, and again for the sake of this topic, Jill is not only better than Haar there but one of the best Beorc choices for her damage, Spd, and Canto.

[dondon151]

if you have to change the rules to weaken haar, that means that he's too good!

I get the Energy Drop in my strategy, which is why I didn't know of 1 turning the map. I also don't use other people's strategies in my own runs, because any simpleton can steal strategies and use them to do an LTC run.

i don't usually mind elitism, but the elitism in this statement is sad and laughable.

espinosa's point about "turns saved" is one that i would have made as well. you haven't addressed that, though you'll probably bring up your trademarked ideas of "complexity" or something similar.

[General Banzai]

Hawk King tells me in a pure LTC the number of turns Seth saves in the whole game is equal to... three.

Wait how does this work

Not denying just wondering

[Baldrick]

On the topic of drafts, I assumed Haar was banned because of his sheer availability. Sure, you can technically do most of his stuff with Elincia and Titania, but four players are guaranteed not to get either, and the other two will only get one of them. (I suppose it's possible that someone will pick up both of them, but I'd hate to see their part 1 in that case. And five people don't have either now)

@Banzai; I suppose find the minimum turncount for FE8, and the minimum turncount for Sethless FE8. I think it may be less indicative than it sounds because they wouldn't factor in reliability.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Huck Finn

[General Banzai]

@Banzai; I suppose find the minimum turncount for FE8, and the minimum turncount for Sethless FE8. I think it may be less indicative than it sounds because they wouldn't factor in reliability.

Yeah now that I think about it probably everything Seth does turnwise could theoretically be replicated by Franz and Vanessa, Franz only having one less move than Seth anyway

[Ronman5]

I vote jill and HEy Edward is not a crappy unit

[Elieson]

Edward is not a crappy unit

He does have a greater potential to be crappy compared to Nolan/Jill, given his growths and all

In early game

Edited September 11, 2013 by Elieson

[Ronman5]

Well i think Jill has great potential too especially if u do the transfer during Chapter 3-7 by having haar talk to her

[PKL]

Isn't Jill technically one of the more screwable characters? her hp str and def growths arent exactly rng proof.

[Junkhead]

Yeah, what the hell is this shit about her being a "growth unit", she only really excels in Spd & Luck.

[General Banzai]

A unit's chance of getting RNG screwed has nothing to do with their growth rates

In fact number of levels left to grow is a more relevant factor, as with a larger number of levels you're more likely to get an average distribution of level-ups

So, prepromotes with very few levels to gain, like Renning, are the most likely units to get RNG screwed, it's just irrelevant because their growths weren't contributing much to their stats to begin with

Whereas Jill and Edward are more likely to hit their average stats but since they're so much more dependent on growths for their total statistical performance, you simply notice much more when they get screwed

[Narga_Rocks]

A unit's chance of getting RNG screwed has nothing to do with their growth rates

Well, technically a 50% growth has a bigger standard deviation than a 20% or 80% growth and thus you are more likely to be more points south of your average than otherwise. But you are also more likely to be more points north of your average, so it's debatable whether it's a bad thing.

[Junkhead]

When talking about growths, I think it's safe to assume we should put them in context of their respective FE games. Isn't 45% Str average/above-average, in this game?

[Florete]

45% is pretty average in this game, maybe slightly below if one way or the other. Growths in this game tend to be pretty high compared to most FEs. Then Awakening came.

[Junkhead]

FE12 also set the bar up pretty high. FE13 just made is even sillier. This gaem also has the tendency to fap to Skill/Luck/Res growths and have lower HP growths.

I remember in FE4 people had relatively huge HP growths and like 30s across the board, or something like that.

Also, Anoulethe calculated the average Str growth, and he got something like 42% IIRC.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

FE12 growth is already silly, crazy even

Lets compare this, Donnel in his "best" class vs FE12 craziest unit in its own "best" class

Donnel BK

HP: 100(120)

STR: 65(85)

MAG: 15(35)

SKL: 65(85)

SPD: 65(85)

LCK: 80(100)

DEF: 40(60)

RES: 20(40)

Jake Zerk

HP: 100

STR: 80

MAG: 0

SKL: 55

SPD: 100

LCK: 70

DEF: 30

RES: 5

Yes, I AM perfectly aware of how biased this is, but you'll see the point

Although thanks to how FE12 works, and the enemy stats in general, those silly high growth did not become as broken as it would be(okay, I admit Jake is a terrible example, deal with it)

Edited September 11, 2013 by JSND

[commonguard]

Jill (growth units) is(are) more likely to be RNG screwed than Haar(prepromotes). I haven't played RD at all, and I haven't beaten PoR but for FE in general the idea of using a prepromote comes from them being serviceable at base stats and thus never actually needing stat ups. Stat ups are nice especially for someone like say Seth, Titania, Marcus but these units can all function for a good many chapters without stat ups.

As for growth rates and the remaining number of levels that a unit can level up, they both affect a unit's susceptibility to RNG screwage. But it's not as simple as looking at averages or variance, or even skewness and kurtosis. If prepromotes are at risk of not meeting their averages, then it's even worse for growth units who need to meet benchmarks every few chapters throughout the course of the game to remain usuable. Long term averages mean nothing, especially for a growth unit who's has gained a few levels but still failed to meet their first benchmark. Is the unit still usable or it it just being shoehorned in after this point?

[Baldrick]

Jill is only really a growth unit in the context of Jill v Haar.