Semi-Precious Mafia - Mafia wins!

[Refa]

People should really post more, I feel like all of my reads are two days outdated and it's really bothering me. Makes scumhunting way harder than it needs to be.

[Wayward Winds]

(@Refa: Maybe that's the point? I'm getting increasingly suspicious that we have a mafia amongst the 'coasters'.)

Well, it must have been paranoia that had Bluedoom chasing BBM. Dagnamit, we're losing all of the 'chronic posters' first! I hope D3 is going to better for discussion than D2, because that was just embarrasing.

Okay, so my current thoughts:

Scorri - A combination of Kirsche's persistent attacks on her, plus my conclusions from last nights happenings have me reading her as slightly Town. I could be wrong, because there's still a lack of posts to go on. (For the record, I actually got a negative result overnight, which suggests she has a passive ability or is vanilla. No role block or redirecting happened). Anyway, my gut feeling (which I probably shouldn't rely on) has her pegged as more likely to be Town than Mafia.

Bear - No offence Bear, but you still don't seem to be putting much effort in even after it's been pointed out. We're about to hit the weekend, so this is your chance to address that! Plus there's the aforementioned hopping on bandwagons without really offering anything new to the case. But for now;

##Time to cull: The Bear

Refa - He's been consistently analysing away and hasn't made any sudden, unjustified shifts in opinion (that I can see). I agree with a good amount of what he brings up - although I wouldn't mind a little more info over why I'm considered Town (not pushing though, it's a matter of curiosity rather than suspicion). I think Town.

SB - I don't necessarily agree with all of his reasoning, but I can't fault effort. He doesn't seem to drop suspicions entirely, but he is willing to look into every possibility. And let's face it, no-one's a definite until that role PM appears. Moving on but keeping watch back seems more like Town behaviour. I'd expect Mafia to be more focused on their existing target than keeping previous avenues of investigation open at the same time.

Shin - Someone who might be pleased to know that he's reading null-tell for me at the moment. On the one hand, those D2 posts were good, as were a couple of the D1's in terms of reasoning. On the other, I don't like how I had to state three times that my RVS stuff was a pile of dog doodah. It gives the impression that he wasn't paying attention. Given that scum, as liars, are likely to change their story between tellings he could have just been looking for for slip ups, but some acknowledgement would have been nice rather than just asking the question again.

Bard - I can't find much either way with Bard. He was suspicious of Kirsche fairly early on and maintained that view, suggesting Town or Mafia who knows his teammate is under no threat given how many votes Poly attracted. Probably the former, because most other posts show signs of proper hunting (or complaining about Bear's proposed 24hr absence). Something's niggling at me though, but I can't figure out what. So for now, my opinion is leaning Town but not taking it for granted.

At the moment though, my bet's on one of the so called 'coasters'.

[Refa]

(@Refa: Maybe that's the point? I'm getting increasingly suspicious that we have a mafia amongst the 'coasters'.)

I get that mafia benefits from coasting, but town? It's hard to identify people who are mafia and coasting (although at this point, you can't really call it coasting persay; give it 12 or so more hours and then I'll start to get suspicious) when there are so many inactives atm.

Also if you want to know why I think you're town, just look at your last post. The only real difference I'm seeing between you and SB (another town read of mine) atm is you've done certain things that I can't see mafia doing, although like you said, I can't really be 100% certain until the flip.

[Shin]

##Vote: Shin

Gut feeling + general lackluster feel to posts. Feels like he's just following the vote and even though he said he wanted to scumhunt yesterday, but then he does things like "Oh scorri is bad but also your case on her is bad" and then later on is like "well actually i don't want to lynch scorri right now" and mostly has a bunch of vague non-committed reads.

Actually my read on you changed because of the kirsche flip. Considering that he spent a lot of time harping on you, then was revealed as scum, I'm less inclined that he was trying to distance himself from you and more inclined to believe that it was an attempt for an easy lynch on an open spot. Also considering how Marth defended you, I'm less inclined to the think that you're scum.

SB, I don't get why you've suddenly stopped suspecting DA BEAR, especially since he's got a wonderful trio of poor content, laziness and only one major read ever - who turned out to be town. Just because he asked who you targeted doesn't particularly mean something. I'm not sure what to make of this backing off, but it really does look weird.

Wayward, I pressured you constantly so you actually gave a decent reply, since that reasoning was pretty far-fetched. Bard's case on kirsche from D1 seemed pretty legit, and the defense of BBM further cements Bard as town for me. I really can't say much about Refa, who's seemed to have vanished. Still, my eyes are on Da Bear and SB.

[Shin]

Curse you, Refa! Stoopid ninja colonel! That teaches me for taking so long to post.

One thing that makes me feel that Wayward is probably town is that I'd imagine the scumteam would probably give him things to say, that's what happened in my first game as scum. Either that or they don't like him or are going for the newb!town look.

[Refa]

SB, I don't get why you've suddenly stopped suspecting DA BEAR, especially since he's got a wonderful trio of poor content, laziness and only one major read ever - who turned out to be town. Just because he asked who you targeted doesn't particularly mean something. I'm not sure what to make of this backing off, but it really does look weird.

Considering his last post was a vote on Bearclaw, I'm not sure what your logic is behind this reasoning.

One thing that makes me feel that Wayward is probably town is that I'd imagine the scumteam would probably give him things to say, that's what happened in my first game as scum. Either that or they don't like him or are going for the newb!town look.

Shin and WW scumbuddies confirmed.

[Shin]

##Unvote

Well. I'm kind of feeling better about bear I guess now due to that and crumbs I've picked up on. Meh, I would be willing just to turbo the rest of this phase now.

This was actually SB's last post. I'm guessing you probably overlooked it, but I see no reason why DA BEAR's responses would be terribly indicative.

[Refa]

This was actually SB's last post. I'm guessing you probably overlooked it, but I see no reason why DA BEAR's responses would be terribly indicative.

*facepalm* Yeah, I did. In that case, I'll have to second your querries; I ISO'd bearclaw and nothing particularly notable came to note. Now, it would be one thing if this was a similar case to Polydeuces and SB was reading him as town all along; however, SB was pretty suspicious of bearclaw and even pressured him on at least one occasion; not sure what made him change his mind about bearclaw...

[Da Bear]

So I have a few things to say.

First off I would like to apologize for my play here. I shouldn't have signed up, I was too busy and my lack of time and commitment has hurt the game.

Secondly, something huge just popped up in my life that will cause me to be gone this weekend. I did not see this coming but sadly this means that I shall have to ask for a sub.

Sorry again guys.

Requesting a sub

[Elieson]

prepared to sub, if need be, but will be inactive for the next 9-10 hours regardless.

[charlie_]

Finally, I can post without being used as a chew toy.

I feel like I really need to reread at some point, because right now I'm kind of out of it due to yesterday's inactivity.

I have role related reasons for why I feel a bit better about Bear. It's not concrete reasoning (I realized in the night phase) but I still feel a little bit better about him. Even though he's subbing out. If he is what I initially thought he was, he's probably town. This is pretty much all based on claims though, so I'm still suspicious of him.

Still don't like Wayward. His first massive listpost could be taken as newbtown trying hard to contribute or newbscum trying hard to look townie and fake contributions (DA BEAR in fakeclaim) so that's pretty null to me. He also seems super hesitant/self conscious about himself after he does his massive listpost. When he says "Do something else or I'll switch my vote to you" sound really weird to me especially since Poly flipped town, it's almost like he's saying that if he doesn't, it's not his fault if he's on Poly's wagon. Also his vote on DA BEAR doesn't really look like a scumread vote, it's more like a prodvote. He also kind of threatens scorri with this which just comes across as giving himself an excuse to vote for her later, but he says in this post that he doesn't think abscense is scummy any more.

Shin is still bad imo. Something to note is that he never actually said a thing about kirsche. He also severely lacks content on anyone except for DA BEAR, and a last minute leap onto the Poly wagon, possible to secure his lynch and prevent counterwagons. This post looks okay on the surface until you realize that a bunch of his scumhunting points end up being neutralized or the person ends up being a townread for other reasons, his only scumread is still on DA BEAR. Also I dislike how when he's talking about me he still finds a way to make it a nullread, he's seriously just been tunneling DA BEAR all game.

##Vote: Shin

I've kind of lost my train of thought on everyone else, I'll probably reread and get stuff in order soon.

[Shin]

Role related claims doesn't particularly make me feel any better, SB. Especially with how bad his slot's been. Hopefully a sub should shed some light on the situation. but currently I'm rather hesitant to label it as town.

scorri's line of logic on me seems pretty lazy, but I'm pretty convinced she's town. I can't really see a valid point in using my vote when I need to. You don't need to vote for someone to progress things.

[eclipse]

ELIESON HAS BEEN SUBBED IN FOR BEARCLAW!

(and as penance for that name change, he can provide his own ISO)

VOTALS:

Shin (2): scorri, SB

Elieson (2): Refa, Wayward Winds

Not voting: Elieson, Shin, Bard

You have a little under 54 hours remaining.

[eclipse]

SECOND NOTE: I feel like crap right now.

[Elieson]

Hey guys~

First off

My ISO is Elie AKA The Protown SK

Second, I'm Weak Watcher Survivor don't lynch me kthx.

Third, I can't make sense of the choices of actions made by my predecesor, so don't ask me why.

Fourth, kirsche said

Lynching Priority: Scorri > Poly >> SB > Wayward

so for now I'm going to focus on looking at these players because there's got to be a reason he suggested these guys over anyone else. He's been on scorri most of the game and his reasons were absolutely horrible. So there is that. Feels intentional. Forced even. I'm leaning scum on scorri due to pushing her lynch so hard, yet so poorly. Will ISO scorri later though, but from direct kirsche posts, I'm getting a read on scorri. How messed up is that?

Shin should stop being scummy and outting townreads/towntells. Stop it. Just stop it.

Bard is also pinging my radar. His explosion against the to-be inactive Bearclaws seemed like absolutely needless debate material. You're discussing a lot of mechanics and gameplay tactics and not really throwing votes out, which strikes me as slightly scummy because instead of providing actual content and reads on X-player, it's almost like a soft defense by saying "Dude, posting things like that is not right. Instead, post stuff like this, to help out". I really don't like this post here due to newb-defense being the most horrible excuse of a defense since claiming an INNO on a dead Janitor. Pushing a weak-ish suspicion that has zero validity is isn't cool man. Know what else isn't cool? Publicly coaching a player without reads on said player. His almost tunnel on scorri is something else to notice. He took a different route to scorri than Kirsche did, and leads me to suspect that one or the other is scum. It's more likely Bard IMO, but I can see reasons for only one of the two, as the conversation between them doesn't seem forced. It does seem forced with kirsche though. Also, says there aren't links with kirsche+living people when there definately are since last time I checked, scorri is alive, and BBM was alive until the flip. Why make scum!kirsche appear as not worth looking at? plus he's alive past D1 isn't he obvilynchlynchscumlynchlunch?

Scumreads point to (Bard - or - less likely, scorri) > Shin > rest. I'll throw down a facedown and play my

##Unvote (just to be sure)

and for good measure,

##Vote Bard of a Thousand Bards

##Finger of Suspicion: Shin Just In

Now I'm going to bed, see you chumps in the sunlight

[eclipse]

That gets edited in when the room stops spinning. Thanks~!

[Bard]

I notified eclipse I'd be late, so here I am.

There's several things I'm sceptical about with the replacement, starting off with "I'm survivor" and ending with the votes. The former is chiefly because I dislike how "I'm survivor lol" will usually get people a free pass for being ITP.

His explosion against the to-be inactive Bearclaws seemed like absolutely needless debate material. You're discussing a lot of mechanics and gameplay tactics and not really throwing votes out,

"Explosion". I'm having trouble imagining where I exploded. Care to link it, so I have an inkling of what you're even talking about? My votes have always been maintained on the person I find scummiest, so I find it weird you're criticising me for "not really throwing votes out". If I didn't vote Bearclaw, obviously I did not think it was worth lynching over someone else.

I really don't like this post here due to newb-defense being the most horrible excuse of a defense since claiming an INNO on a dead Janitor.

Okay. You don't like it. Now tell me how it is actually scummy to be personally against stringing up a newcomer on their first game making (to me) obvious newbie mistakes.

Pushing a weak-ish suspicion that has zero validity is isn't cool man.

I don't even understand what this is meant to mean. Are you saying people aren't allowed to push people they only have a weak suspicion on? As in, you're not allowed to press people on points of suspicion? Clarification required.

Know what else isn't cool? Publicly coaching a player without reads on said player.

I dunno, maybe if you read my posts:

Then I look at kirsche here and while it has the makings of a genuine effort, I'm not convinced.

I consider chainsaw defending extremely scummy

If you really are trying, finding evidence to back up your claims and invalidate BBM's refutes should be easy.

I'm clearly saying that I did not believe kirsche to even be trying, that I considered the attack on BBM a chainsaw defence. The second post isn't coaching, it's saying that I wanted kirsche to do x because I had my suspicions about them. I wonder how you were able to disjoint that so fiercely.

Also, says there aren't links with kirsche+living people when there definately are since last time I checked, scorri is alive, and BBM was alive until the flip. Why make scum!kirsche appear as not worth looking at?

BBM was dead by the time I posted, and there's nothing in the interactions with scorri that make me think kirsche had valuable interactions that gave way one way or the other.

So condensing the vote on me, I see gameplay arguments ("Pushing weak suspicions is 'not cool'", "newb-defence is a horrible defence", "coaching players"), some of which aren't even true, and some allegation of me 'exploding' into needless debate material, which dearly needs linking because I can't be bothered guessing what is being hinted it.

In summary, I think Protown SK is disjointing the facts of the game pretty severely to come up with some convoluted scumread, even after saying they were going to look at a choice four people based on scum's actions. Several things are untrue or taken out of proportion to the point that if Protown SK hadn't claimed Survivor I'd have voted them right there.

Now to do some actual scumhunting in my next post.

[Bard]

##Vote: Refa, just to get that out of the way first.

I managed to get some reading done yesterday, and Refa stuck out to me. I talked about this post when it was made, and I see I was quoted in response to that, so I'm raising it again. Refa presented a case that there were two wagons and that they disliked both, offering no alternative at the time. It's scummy, because sitting around with no reads fits my profile of scum having harder times making up cases due to knowing they're wrong. Saying both cases are wrong is like advocating a world in which neither of the two received votes, but Refa offers no idea on what that world should look like.

Why scummy? Because pretending there even were two wagons is like making it a 1v1 when that's simply not the case.

Moving on, here Refa goes OMGUS on SB - tunnelling is entirely different from not having reads, so the criticism seems that "SB tunnels" and "SB complains about my lack of reads OMGUS". That's the last post in which Refa makes any big opinions, because afterwards it's just responding to people and not making big reads any direction until here.

Now the problem with that last post is that it has reads on a lot of people which feels like needless fluff ("Look, I have reads even if most are townreads!") and, of course, criminally the top of his list is kirsche. The bottom of his list is Polydeuces at which he asks if anything more needs to be said. Reminder: Refa has made an early case on Polydeuces and to that point has made no effort to update it or otherwise point out how Polydeuces' continued posting has solidified their position as scum. The other scum are SB and Shin, where Refa's read on SB still seems to be stuck on OMGUS: Clarifying positions on someone isn't scummy if you are genuinely convinced your targets are scum. In fact, clarifying and updating reads should be considered Townie since it demonstrates zeal, and Townies lynch with zeal in my ideal world.

Huh. This is something I missed, invalidating my earlier comment that kirsche has no interesting links to the living. Kirsche approves of Refa's scumreads, which is interesting of itself - I'm still not entirely convinced this can be considered a 'real link', considering I would not lynch someone just because scum approved their reads. Anyway, up until the very end, Refa offers no more arguments on Polydeuces, in fact not wasting any space in his posts about the guy he put a vote on early Day 1 at all. You'd THINK he'd read Polydeuces and respond to Poly, but in fact it's hard to tell where he was voting due to the severe lack of votalssince he never spoke about his target much.

This is scummy to me because he's been coasting the entire day offering very little in the way of actual scumhunting. He just threw a vote on and then sat back while everyone else was figuring things out. THere's no further arguments on a Scum!Shin either. The major thing against SB is "tunnelling", but that by itself isn't scummy unless you're tunnelling for all the wrong reasons for example. Also, while Refa acknowledges that here, it also means he's dropped suspicion of SB because "he stopped tunnelling".

Of the Day 1 reads, Refa's demonstrated that he didn't care about Polydeuces enough to update his early Day 1 vote, and he didn't care about SB enough so long as SB stopped tunnelling. "Tunnelling" being the sole factor for putting someone down as scum is...

His latest case today is on BEAR for "not contributing a lot", which is a rather easy stance to take and reeks of his earlier stance on SB, which he dropped the moment SB stopped "tunnelling". Basically: if BEARCLAW had come back and posted a lot, I'm fairly sure Refa would've dropped their case again.

Scum like taking easy cases, criticising not the content but rather the playstyle. As he did with SB, and he has done today with BEARCLAW.

This level of reasoning is possible for Bardiche, what do you think?

[Bard]

Tl;dr Refa's done very little scumhunting, has had very weak and nebulous scumreads (nothing on Shin now?), has not had priorities straight and attacks players based on playstyle rather than their actual content. Takes easy stance and doesn't afraid of anything, except apparently for scumhunting by weeding out the liars.

[scorri]

So not here for long, but Bard: Eli just lost Fakeclaim where his claim was weak watcher survivor. He's making stuff up.

[Bard]

So not here for long, but Bard: Eli just lost Fakeclaim where his claim was weak watcher survivor. He's making stuff up.

I now regret not having two votes. I like my Refa case a lot more for now (I know I said I'd vote them but I admit to some OMGUS kneejerking), so Protown SK has the opportunity to brush up on why his scumhunting is legit.

His almost tunnel on scorri is something else to notice. He took a different route to scorri than Kirsche did, and leads me to suspect that one or the other is scum. It's more likely Bard IMO, but I can see reasons for only one of the two

I now also grow curious about this statement, since the logic doesn't add up. Why do you believe either I or scorri are scum?

[Wayward Winds]

...For once it's me who's short on time.

Firstly, good luck Elieson, you've got your work cut out for you trying to dig yourself from the hole Bearclaw's left you in. But...

I'm still trying to get my head round that post, but... you mention you're going to focus on Kirsche's intended victims. Except, you only really look at Scorri. Poly's deceased, so ignoring him is understandable... but what about SB and me? Any thoughts there? We seem to have been forgotten in your eagerness to pick holes in near everything Bard has said.

Otherwise, good luck. You may well need it to clear the suspicion surrounding Bear's former slot.

[Shin]

Yo, I'm literally about to fall asleep, but I've had a quick read, I'll have something proper to say in the morning, but it'd be nice if scorri elaborated on what she meant, my poor tired brain is pulling a blank.

[charlie_]

Pokemon X is ridiculously distracting. Going to get a post up now.

[Bard]

Don't worry it's not like this Mafia game is going anywhere.