Choose You're Own Role Mafia - Game Over

[eclipse]

19 and then some hours? I'll do the scum list/everything else in the morning.

[Kay]

Why didn't you give Paperblade the other item? I might be wrong about this but I got the impression that you thought he was town.

It would take one night to give it to him and one night for him to read it, instead of one night for me to read it. I assume since he didn't tell me to do that, the possibility that I might lie about the result was not that important or something.

Elieson being rebellious isn't a good reason to vote him, especially with the relative silence during this phase. I'm not absolutely certain about Strege's logic, which is why my vote is here.

Not sure you understood what I was saying. It's not that he's being rebellious, it's that he wasn't talking about BBM/Paper/whoever being scummy much or all for like two phases and just brings it up when there's less consensus on what to do.

hrm, I wonder why Kay didn't read the book from nights 1-4.(has she still read it actually?)

I also wonder if Strege is lying since he didn't mention if the book he scanned on N1 and N4 is the same or not.

Oh wow. I didn't read my role PM. This made me go recheck my actions to list them and I just saw that I was redirected N1 without noticing at the time. Okay then...

Targeted Proto N0

Targeted SB N1, was redirected to Rocker, got the book

Targeted Rein N2, got Proto's program

Targeted Paper N3 to give the program to him, was redirected to Rocker

Targeted Kirsche N4 because I thought trying to stop scum from doing things was more useful than reading the book when I wasn't sure what Paper/BBM would want me to do with it

Read the book N5 on orders from our esteemed leaders when I thought it might contain enough information to be more useful that way than turned into a vest by Shinori

Paper's role is sort of extremely huge. It was pretty awesome with only the mass persuade, now I'm kinda back to thinking something might be more restricted than he claims.

I also find it very odd that Eclipse was saying it was silly to trust the cop clears if you didn't trust the cop. Eclipse's meta is generally to advocate her own reads as being absolute with full confidence in them, so this seems like a strange thing for her to say, unless she was expecting to try to hide her role or something.

Kevin up based on Eclipse clearing him (Eclipse generally goes for max towncred as scum, so this is partly just meta that I don't think she'd lie about it), Paper down based on I just don't think it makes sense for anyone to have a role that OP regardless of alignment and Proto and Paper made some good points about one of the leaders possibly being scum.

Marf and BBM are so high partly due to sheer YOLOness. Euk is not only cop cleared but is acting massively obvtown imo. Within color coded groups the degree of the read I have is not that different. (by which I mean, for example, Kevin is townier than Shinori but not massively so)

Town

Euklyd

BBM

Marf

Bearclaw

Kevin

Shinori

Paper

Eclipse

Strege

Eli

Scum

[euklyd]

Eclipse, Proto says he would like to know (and I would too) who else you have investigated and cleared. Kirsche and I are only two, and there have been six nights (although last night you were roleblocked), so that's three unaccounted for.

[Zkirsche]

Revised the list a bit from thinking about it a bit more:

-Me: I am obviously town and everyone who has voted me over the course of this game should feel bad.

-Elieson: He saved some dude N4. Obvtown.

-Elieson's N4 target: Obvtown.

-bearclaw: Basically what PB said: good scum interactions and I was reading him as town even before the GB catch.

-Paperblade: Bro is leading us to victory, stop hating haters. Lots of effort and a lot of scumhunting.

-eclipse: Basically a confirmed cop, there's no real confirmation that she's town and alignment cop is easy to fake though. Worth keeping around, at the very least.

-Shinori: Even though this guy is super scummy, everyone always thinks that, and admittedly his role doesn't make much sense as scum (infinite LPVs lel). Has his role been tested?

-BBM: If we're talking about who's put the most effort into being town leader, that would be PB. FMPOV BBM has just sat in the background going "yup what PB said is good yup yup" and hasn't really contributed much to discussion at all, at least not in-thread. I feel like PB has been more active and trying to help the town than BBM who has sort of coasted along from being town leader.

-Euklyd: UB a pretty scummy role in general but has an inno scan.

-Marth: Hasn't really done much except shoot obejction! which wasn't really a town thing to do.

-Kay: PoE mostly, but her voting pattern has been iffy and she has disobeyed orders.

-Strege: Must I explain why this guy is scum again? Voteparked Refa D1 for dumb reasons then unvoted when he got heat for it. I felt his scumhunting efforts early on were poor and I think he was too quick to give up after my mayor fakevig. Although Poly has shown that disheartened town is a thing, I still dislike it. There's also a bunch of minor things like using logical fallacy buzzwords in arguments. Aside from that, his role is basically as strong as mine (read: not very) and other people are townier in general anyway. Being away most of the time doesn't really help.

[Zkirsche]

@Euklyd: Outing town clears is something we don't need to do yet.

Ftr I don't actually want to be told who Elie's target was unless they're about to be put on a lynch platter.

[Elieson]

I'm not putting Strege at L-1, because I want Proto's answer first (and screw quickhammers), and because I think Elieson should answer this first.

I was hoping maybe they would say something like "Well gee we have X players who are provably innocent and therefore not worth being discussed, so you should probably aim your hunting at Y players instead. Instead, there was little beyond dancing around the topic, leading me to wonder who exactly fits the bill of theoretical scum. For the record, my scumreads aren't based on role, but that's because my role doesn't give me clears or guilties to work with. I thought they were trusting theoretical "roles that don't fit the bill as scum roles" rather than scummy players. the tl;dr version of this is: Sometimes people look at a claim/scan and say "oh ok it must be true". Look at boron. She saw the Grass thing as "He's town and I'm not gonna change my mind on it unless something conclusive comes up". People were obviously skeptical about it, and look how that turned out. For you to say that my questions don't hold validity is silly because you aren't considering that my suspicion and scumreads could be worthwhile. Sure Euklyd is clear now, but he wasn't any earlier in the game (afaik).
// I understand the bit about clears often being subjective but I didn't say that your question wasn't valid. I think I misunderstood your question as partly derisive.

For starters, Euklyd just mysteriously became a top-tier townread. Why? I don't know. I had no way of knowing until it was announced publically that he was clear, so there's a combination of thoughts in my mind including:

• How did he become clear?
• Why should we be just assuming he's clear? Is he like Friendly Townie or something
• If he isn't Friendly Townie, then why is it that he's being regarded as town, when he should be viewed as null at best due to being a slot that has done pretty much nothing?
• Not that I shouldn't trust BBM and Paperblade, but why should I trust the source of their information when I wasn't even sure of what the information was?

I didn't have any idea why he was clear, so I was naturally suspicious of it. Don't like it? Learn to look into things before just accepting them. Aaaactually, did you even read why I voted for Euklyd? I am thinking that you may not have.

// I read why you voted for Euklyd: he didn't have much in the way of reads, and either convinced BBM/PB that he was town or BBM/PB just think others are scummier. I think that's it, anyway. I agree with BBM that the second part isn't a good basis for a vote, which you treated it as. The thing that made you actually vote for him was his position on BBM's and PB's scumlists, which I feel is bad.


If you look back, you'll see that I called out the RockerEuk slot already, several times at that. ISO me if you don't believe it.


// I read your material on Euklyd, though I forgot to reread your comments on Rocker until now. You've said that Rocker was null in hindsight so this doesn't really add support to your vote except by POE, which doesn't really relate to my issues.

Also, rolefishing is deeming Kay or whoever as expendable because of their roles not being that important to town? Or, whatever it was that BBM decided yesterday.

// I think my rolefishing comment was dumb actually, since you could have just justifiably asked "what is Euklyd claim to make him seem townie to you" basically, but I don't understand what you're asking here.

Also also, according to you, I should only have a read on you, Kay, eclipse [or myself]? I'm intentionally not looking at rolespec when I look at people like Shinori, Euklyd (to an extent, Marth, though BBM had a solid point on him), etc. I don't have a solid stance on Kay and eclipse to read them solidly as scum, and I was on you hard during the early stages of the game so I'm trying to differentiate my reads on you from "I thought you were scum because you put a bad taste in my mouth early on" to "well now it just looks like PoE has brought you to the place where I thought you were to begin with".

// That's more of speculation from me I suppose, but I think looking at who people are pushing has validity -- even if it can be a coincidence if, for example, someone that someone has been ignoring turns up scum.

I don't care for the logic behind the two Elieson votes so far. In Kay's case, the game is going nowhere, and him trying to do SOMETHING in regards to this deadlock isn't scummy. Waiting around for BBM/Paperblade to make up their minds while contributing nothing is far more unhelpful. If I'm reading Strege's logic correctly, he's voting Elieson for similar reasons.

I'm not voting for Elieson because he's checking corners, but because his votes have been bad, his behaviour mildly contradictory, and I'm reading him this phase as panicky.

Ok clipsey, responding to points in order:

• I guess so? I wasn't trying to be condescending.
• At the time, Euklyd shot up in townliness on Paper/BBM's tier list, and I wasn't sure why. I wasn't suspicious of him being read as town, but I was suspicious that a player with practically zero content had been "pretty much proven as town". Part of my suspicion was that sure, he had done something/said something in private that made him appear town to our leaders, but the other part was if his role was proven as town or alignment checked or something, and I feel as though that's something that could've been outted by our leaders in order to prevent things like needless suspicion from occurring. I wouldn't have wasted time breaking down Euklyd as theoretical scum if our leaders had just said "Euklyd's been cleared because a nameless player pretty much cleared him". But instead, he shot up and it was strange. Sort of aggrivating. A player who had done nothing was looking more townie than people who were active and actually looking townie. Something didn't make sense, and I was more trying to piece together the puzzle and figure things out rather than let the leaders run the show. I'm not suspicious of him anymore (if I seem like I am, I'm more pushing for contribution from him at this point). I needed to distinguish if he was "probably town" vs "town", because neither paperblade nor bbm explained that part.
• It kinda does because at this point, many of our players are being read by PoE, and if there's lots of clears, then null reads are scummy by comparison.
• I didn't want to drag Euklyd's claim out in public because I didn't know if his clear was due entirely to claim or not. You're withdrawing your statement, so I'm not sure what you want me to reply to here.
• Then the way you worded things confused me, because I interpretted your words more as I shouldn't be looking at potential clears and wasting my time.

If you think I'm panicky, well I am a little frustrated because I'm being voted for reasons I find bad just the same. If you think I'm contradictory, well hello kettle. If you think my votes are bad, well...I can't argue that your views are different than mine for X reasons because you have different reasons for suspecting people than I do.

[Elieson]

pssst, kirsche

@Euklyd: Outing town clears is something we don't need to do yet.

Ftr I don't actually want to be told who Elie's target was unless they're about to be put on a lynch platter.

I'm nyquil'd up but im responding before i go to bed, n4 I was on SB, because after the j00 catch i figured sb was obvitown. i still dont know how he died which is why i thought arsonist or something (then that lover maker idea which still confuses the fudge out of me). i wasnt redirected or hooked, i was successfully on sb.

who asked that again? also g'night all

Good morning. I didn't save anyone N4 because of this lover thing, but I was on SB for above reasons.

BBM told me to target eclipse I thought. I might have misread it because they're both seven letters :/

This is....pretty hard to believe. I always look at Eclipse and think Shinori because they're spelled so similarly /sarcasm.

[Elieson]

Also kirsche, Paperblade just outted a list of clears with his reads.

[Da Bear]

responding to prod since I'm here.

Not for long though and my skim catchup didn't give me much. I'll get something up this afternoon.

[Zkirsche]

Good morning. I didn't save anyone N4 because of this lover thing, but I was on SB for above reasons.

N3 then. Whichever night I was targetted by bear. I forget because I don't have a night action so each night is basically the same as the last.

Also kirsche, Paperblade just outted a list of clears with his reads.

Aside from the innos on me and Euklyd, where is this outted list of clears?

[Elieson]

Well you, me and Euk have all been cop checked, so I'm assuming that we are the list of clears by context, unless the cop is scum

[Strege]

It would take one night to give it to him and one night for him to read it, instead of one night for me to read it. I assume since he didn't tell me to do that, the possibility that I might lie about the result was not that important or something.

Oh wait, I just rummaged through your ISO; can you only move one item per night or something?

-Strege: Must I explain why this guy is scum again? Voteparked Refa D1 for dumb reasons then unvoted when he got heat for it. I felt his scumhunting efforts early on were poor and I think he was too quick to give up after my mayor fakevig. Although Poly has shown that disheartened town is a thing, I still dislike it. There's also a bunch of minor things like using logical fallacy buzzwords in arguments. Aside from that, his role is basically as strong as mine (read: not very) and other people are townier in general anyway. Being away most of the time doesn't really help.

Is this it? I wouldn't even know where to start correcting this, and I kind of doubt it would do any good, but this opinion is pretty graspy. This is the same thing Elie is doing where he's just dredging up things I think I've explained plenty thoroughly to bolster a POE vote. If you're just voting me for lack of better candidates, fine, but I don't feel like spending another phase reiterating my responses to these accusations. You also don't know the strength of my role without knowing the entire setup, so...

At the time, Euklyd shot up in townliness on Paper/BBM's tier list, and I wasn't sure why. I wasn't suspicious of him being read as town, but I was suspicious that a player with practically zero content had been "pretty much proven as town". Part of my suspicion was that sure, he had done something/said something in private that made him appear town to our leaders, but the other part was if his role was proven as town or alignment checked or something, and I feel as though that's something that could've been outted by our leaders in order to prevent things like needless suspicion from occurring. I wouldn't have wasted time breaking down Euklyd as theoretical scum if our leaders had just said "Euklyd's been cleared because a nameless player pretty much cleared him". But instead, he shot up and it was strange. Sort of aggrivating. A player who had done nothing was looking more townie than people who were active and actually looking townie. Something didn't make sense, and I was more trying to piece together the puzzle and figure things out rather than let the leaders run the show. I'm not suspicious of him anymore (if I seem like I am, I'm more pushing for contribution from him at this point). I needed to distinguish if he was "probably town" vs "town", because neither paperblade nor bbm explained that part.

I still don't understand how voting for him solves this issue.

This is....pretty hard to believe. I always look at Eclipse and think Shinori because they're spelled so similarly /sarcasm.

Idk how to convince you of my illiteracy -- asking BBM is usually a good place to start though.

PEDIT: oh Elie was rolecopcleared, ehgfg. doctor as a mafia rolename with a one-shot piercing vig is... dumb, as much as I like to avoid rolespec

##Vote: Kay

idk anymore man

[Zkirsche]

I don't feel like spending another phase reiterating my responses to these accusations

This is acting like I want you to when I don't. The whole "explaining myself" thing doesn't really help much FMPOV, if you want to make up for scummy play, you do unscummy play, not sit around for an entire day phase explaining why you thought X was a good idea FYPOV when all I'd be doing is taking your word for it. Also "Not doing enough scumhunting, making poorly reasoned votes and giving up when all looked lost" is not graspy reasoning.

You also don't know the strength of my role without knowing the entire setup, so...

Pretty sure most, if not all, of the setup is in the open now. I know all the roles of everyone currently alive at least, which I'm pretty sure is enough for setup spec.

[Strege]

This is acting like I want you to when I don't. The whole "explaining myself" thing doesn't really help much FMPOV, if you want to make up for scummy play, you do unscummy play, not sit around for an entire day phase explaining why you thought X was a good idea FYPOV when all I'd be doing is taking your word for it. Also "Not doing enough scumhunting, making poorly reasoned votes and giving up when all looked lost" is not graspy reasoning.

// Some of your accusations are completely fabricated and the way to deal with that /is/ talking about it. Also, I have been scumhunting lately but you don't seem to care about the lion's share of my recent content. The "giving up" argument is awful and wouldn't hold up in any other game -- people even shot it down in this game. You've only called my votes out as poorly reasoned in two cases: one on Refa, that we just disagree with so whatever, and one on you, and I'm not the one who got cop scanned so I would contend that that vote was pretty justified.

Pretty sure most, if not all, of the setup is in the open now. I know all the roles of everyone currently alive at least, which I'm pretty sure is enough for setup spec.

// You and I know very little about the items in this game actually.

[Zkirsche]

I've already mentioned about how recent content doesn't amount to much FMPOV.

I was cop scanned for my role not my play. PB even said he and BBM agreed that I was playing like town. I'm pretty sure you didn't criticise me for my role being too weak.

Knowing that person X has Item Y isn't the strongest even with strong items floating about.

[BBM]

We cop scanned you because of no kills on the night you were hooked.

Eclipse's cop scans:

N0: Scorri

N1: Boron

N2: She screwed up her PR on D2 and wasn't able to perform an action

N3: Paper, redirected to Rocker/Euklyd

N4: Kirsche

N5: hooked by Bear

Also, I was rereading and just saw that apparently Sneak was like a pseudo-Tailor for Rolecops? That makes me feel worse about Eclipse, because it specifically counteracted Rolecops and not Cops. The only things hindering the Cop (other than the built-in PR) is a Godfather, but the Rolecop, the unarguably weaker role, had both the GF and the Sneak? And so did the Tracker/Journalist, which is also weaker, and they also had a built-in nerf where their action could fail if they targeted someone who targeted them.

But still not sure if Elie could be scum with the Sneak though, since it only hides the scummy parts of the role, but doesn't actually change the main part of the role. So if he was scum, his role would still have to be Mafia Doctor/??? and a Mafia Doctor still doesn't make sense with a piercing Dayvig being the only town kill.

[Paperblade]

Technically you were scanned because we thought bear had stopped the scum NK but wanted to be sure, but yeah

Elieson was checked by SB

[BBM]

Eclipse, why are you voting for Kay over Strege? You found him suspicious last phase as well, and in the post where you voted Kay, you stated that Strege's vote on Elie was for the same bad reasons as Kay's. You said that your vote for Kay is because you're not certain about Strege's logic, but if you're not certain about it, doesn't that make it scummy?

[eclipse]

BBM, if you're going off into rolespec territory, answer this: How does an alignment cop who can roleblock herself help the mafia?

[BBM]

I don't think you're mafia. The mafia has no use for a Cop, and the fact that you're Cop is confirmed. I think you're ITP. The PR is there to make it more believable, just as the fact that j00's Watcher couldn't act the night after witnessing a kill was to make her role more believable, since Prims considers Watchers and Cops to be the two strongest commonly used roles.

[eclipse]

I also find it very odd that Eclipse was saying it was silly to trust the cop clears if you didn't trust the cop. Eclipse's meta is generally to advocate her own reads as being absolute with full confidence in them, so this seems like a strange thing for her to say, unless she was expecting to try to hide her role or something.

This sounds extremely graspy. It's putting some meta read over common sense (do I trust my source?).

Kevin up based on Eclipse clearing him (Eclipse generally goes for max towncred as scum, so this is partly just meta that I don't think she'd lie about it), Paper down based on I just don't think it makes sense for anyone to have a role that OP regardless of alignment and Proto and Paper made some good points about one of the leaders possibly being scum.

Anyone being cleared by me is a null on my own alignment; if I'd driven a lynch based off of my result, and he/she flipped town, I'd be next. Likewise, if I said someone was town and they flipped anything but godfather, I'd be in trouble. This is basic logic.

Eclipse, why are you voting for Kay over Strege? You found him suspicious last phase as well, and in the post where you voted Kay, you stated that Strege's vote on Elie was for the same bad reasons as Kay's. You said that your vote for Kay is because you're not certain about Strege's logic, but if you're not certain about it, doesn't that make it scummy?

You're not certain whether or not I'm ITP, therefore, does that uncertainty make me ITP? Also, I'm not putting him at L-1 just yet.

I don't think you're mafia. The mafia has no use for a Cop, and the fact that you're Cop is confirmed. I think you're ITP. The PR is there to make it more believable, just as the fact that j00's Watcher couldn't act the night after witnessing a kill was to make her role more believable, since Prims considers Watchers and Cops to be the two strongest commonly used roles.

The PR actively hinders me during the day, and possibly the night. The cop role also forces me to town-side, for the basic logical reason stated above. This makes no sense if I'm harmful, and barely any if I'm neutral. I'm positive that a repeat of SFMM3 won't happen.

Something he said caught me off guard. He talked about how his role was made to counter mine, then I thought about how he's a day vig or a vig or whatever and his kill supposedly penetrates Bullet proof vests. I don't remember if he got inspected or not but if he wasn't inspected then I easily feel like he could have been a scum vig designed to counteract me and my BPV.

Y'know how ninja implies to the person who has it that there's probably a tracker/watcher/something like that? Why can't Marth have that same kind of implication in his role PM?

Fuck that list, my head hurts.

[Paperblade]

fmpov the only possible neutral eclipse could be is either relatively harmless or Arsonist

[eclipse]

I just learned of something that has nothing to do with this game that'll affect my posts. See you in a few hours.

[Prims]

Day 6.3 Votals

Strege (4) - kirsche, SHIGUN!!, Paperblade, Elieson

Kay (2) - eclipse, Strege

Elieson (1) - Kay

Shinori (1) - Bluedoom

Not Voting (4): bearclaw13, BigBangMeteor, Euklyd, Shinori

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. You have 7 hours left in the day.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Professional PantsWrestler

[euklyd]

Pretty sure most, if not all, of the setup is in the open now. I know all the roles of everyone currently alive at least, which I'm pretty sure is enough for setup spec.

We still have an unclaimed vote-motivator or whatever (unless that was an item, which is entirely possible). Either way I haven't seen any part of a role that can make additional votes pop up among the dead, and it seems like I get to see basically everything, including what items a role can fabricate (if the person with the role knows what they do).

So there are certainly some unexplained things among living players.

@Paperblade -

xatc lobvx ruf ahdjaw wxlmue

jd yvfx ewpveflr