link arena Fire Emblem Link Arena Discussion Topic

[Espinosa]

PKL, if Shade/Provoke liberties don't "add more depth", they either affect it negatively or do not have any impact on it. I'd like to know what you mean outside of the fact that these skills aren't as easily applicable to the arena (which is a fact I acknowledged ages ago).

Honestly though, many of the discussions forced recently seem to just lead us away from focusing on playing and more topical issues, such as the ones I mentioned before (custom skill balance, Laguz balance, Reinforce mechanics, Shade/Provoke mechanics as opposed to the 2 month old question whether these should function at all). We've nerfed Shade/Provoke quite a lot since those times too, whether Shade is effective until one ally drops dead or just for the first two defence turns. Nihil and Parity are now available to nearly everybody, too.

I think averages + custom skills + boosters is the best realm for the first cup-like event (maybe a bigger one than the draft one?), which is what I propose we do next. I've no clue how much time I'll have in a few months, and I can at least ensure that I can run the event and host a large portion of the matches that will take place (though I'd like to participate as a player as well and still share hosting with other volunteers).

Edited January 24, 2014 by Espinosa

[dondon151]

Problem is Parity is exclusive to another meta barring LOLlucia. Honestly, the only meta where Ike Oscar is ridiculous is in max stats because Paladin caps are great and 40 Lck. Oscar isn't nearly as good in averages.

yes, this is true about oscar. he's not doubled by significant units and his def cap is the second highest in the game for beorc units.

Obviously dondon is correct in that if we wish to stay as true to game mechanics as possible, N/P would not affect either of S/P. However, as far as I know no enemy has S/P aside from Shinon, who obviously is not forced to be attacked by your units.

shade and provoke look like they're here to stay for now, but that doesn't counter my targeting vs. execution argument. i can sort of deal with the compromise suggested here, but that ruling is totally arbitrary and makes little sense mechanically.

[Hawkeye]

I think these two points need to be said about parity/nihil/shade/provoke
1. At the end of the day, this is Espinosa's project and he has the power to update or not update the OP as he sees fit.

2. Technically there's nothing stopping you from finding two other people and having a game with any mechanics changed any way you see fit.

"you" being used in a general sense here, i'm not trying to target dondon specifically

Edited January 24, 2014 by Hawkeye

[dondon151]

1. At the end of the day, this is Espinosa's project and he has the power to update or not update the OP as he sees fit.

this project does not "belong" to espinosa.

2. Technically there's nothing stopping you from finding two other people and having a game with any mechanics changed any way you see fit.

no, there isn't, and it's well within my power to spam this forum with arbitrary metagames that use whimsical rules. there is a reason that instead of doing this, i bother at all to propose mechanically accurate rules.

[Espinosa]

this project does not "belong" to espinosa.

Correct; I would like this to remain in usage should I depart or abstain from activity for any reason that may arise (I tend to not stick around online communities for very long as my interests change so this is something that is all too likely to happen at some point). The idea may belong to me but it matters little; right now I can offer initiative, free time, interest and effort (all necessary resources to get this thing running) in shaping some coherent metagames out of this that won't require my presence in any way in order to function anytime two users want to have an arena fight. The unstated (I think) goal is to probe the metagames for existing FE titles for peculiar features and propose an environment that is entertaining and interesting and isn't exhausted after just a couple of battles (a fate that seems inevitable for some of the metagames at this point). This is more interesting to me personally than botting a game of random support-based teams that fail to function or providing a fresh LPing kind of format for those who grew tired of drafts, actual Let's Plays and whatever else, as interesting as these may be to others, so as long as I have the time and energy to run games, I will be running them for as long as I find it interesting and enjoyable.

2. Technically there's nothing stopping you from finding two other people and having a game with any mechanics changed any way you see fit.

And that's why the criticism I receive matters even if I may not agree with its claim for truth and/or benefit. Proposing different variations to the same metagames is certainly planned for inclusion in the OP once we learn more, and any people who want to play a game will be able to choose the ruleset (which is a lot more complex in PoR than elsewhere) and any other arbitrary agreements.

For example, the earliest incarnation for Shade (with or without GBA-style counter) was most certainly a disaster, whereas the present attempts to implement Shade and Provoke both seem quite reasonable.

Logical consistency and an attempt to have an entertaining, interesting environment don't quite go hand in hand, as demonstrated by: 1) firsly, the whole idea of a Link Arena which doesn't exist in the game, 2) initial choice to choose averages over absolute maximum stats that has now received a breath of fresh air with the implementation of custom skills and boosters providing customisation and increased viability of otherwise unusable units with investments of a varying extent, 3) the whole format of playing LA in the shape of forum posts with benefits and limitations that GBA arena doesn't have I should think; 4) things like "scouting" and guessing weaponry, supports and accessories, which shouldn't be there but constitute much of the fun that this thing is capable of exhibiting.

But sure enough, I'm not some dictator that arbitrarily slaps in random bits of things that aren't in the games and if you want a more naked, transparent and "literal" simulation you can have it. Besides the stress for the "fun" factor in the manner that I see it, I also should say that very real effort did go into figuring out how exactly some of the (considerably) more translatable and understandable skills function in-game and rendering it all here, so there's that. I do try to keep fan fiction to the bare minimum here, but something like GBA LA with PoR skills is fan fiction-ish yet fun and probably worth trying out at some point.

[Espinosa]

And just what is wrong with character portraits randomly growing big? First it's Mist and Rolf, now it's Tibarn.

[Elieson]

SB, my team's fully submitted. Get your bananas in gear, seriously!

[Elieson]

Does FE5 Charisma self-target?

[Refa]

Yo dondon, sending you my FE5 stuff.

[Espinosa]

Does FE5 Charisma self-target?

No, it doesn't. The leadership stars affect everyone however.

[dondon151]

Yo dondon, sending you my FE5 stuff.

okay, i'll get your match with dio started sometime in the near future.

EDIT: actually, i want to do a bit of a thought experiment first, if you guys don't mind. consider making a team with the same banlist, but with limited stat boosters available (i.e., no secret shop). the available boosters are:

2x life ring (MHP +7)

2x speed ring (spd +3)

3x shield ring (def +2)

2x skill ring (skl +3)

3x magic ring (mag +2)

2x luck ring (luk +3)

1x body ring (bld +3)

1x power ring (str +3)

what changes would you make to your teams, and would you consider using any units that you had previously passed on? (PM me your thoughts.)

Edited January 25, 2014 by dondon151

[Icon of Sin]

okay, i'll get your match with dio started sometime in the near future.

EDIT: actually, i want to do a bit of a thought experiment first, if you guys don't mind. consider making a team with the same banlist, but with limited stat boosters available (i.e., no secret shop). the available boosters are:

2x life ring (MHP +7)

2x speed ring (spd +3)

3x shield ring (def +2)

2x skill ring (skl +3)

3x magic ring (mag +2)

2x luck ring (luk +3)

1x body ring (bld +3)

1x power ring (str +3)

what changes would you make to your teams, and would you consider using any units that you had previously passed on? (PM me your thoughts.)

Hot damn, that does look quite interesting.

I'll probably do this in the morning though.

[Espinosa]

So I attempted to form a tier list for the FE9 averages/custom skills/boosters meta, taking into account opportunity cost of boosters, skills, team synergy, averages and caps (which can be reached by not only Ike now).

Rule assumptions are the same as during the last two games I hosted for this metagame plus the following: Shade and Provoke both active for the first two defence turns, Nihil/Parity ignore both, Ike x Oscar support ineffective.

Characters appear in order from more to less viable within the same tier, excluding the bottom one. The order could use (a lot of) thought, but we don't have enough experience to be that accurate just yet. There's still too much to find out and think about. The tiers don't assume level metagames (e.g. a meta without any Top/High units).

In brackets, I've included mandatory boosters for characters to function. They could still use other ones should the player have any available.

[spoiler=Top]

Ike

Tibarn

Giffca

[spoiler=High]

Oscar (1x spd)

Kieran (1x spd)

Makalov

Rolf

Naesala

Nasir (2x spd)

Boyd (1x spd)

Brom (2x lck)

Shinon (1x spd)

Nepenthe

Tauroneo

Gatrie

Astrid

Zihark

Largo

Tanith (1x str)

Marcia

Jill (1x spd)

[spoiler=Mid]

Mia

Ena (3x spd)

Mist (1x HP, 1x str)

Ellincia (2x str)

Titania (1x spd)

Geoffrey (1x spd)

Haar (3x spd)

Calill (1x spd, 1x HP/def)

Soren (1x HP, 2x str, 1x spd)

Ilyana (1x HP, 2x str, 3x spd)

Bastian (3x spd)

Lucia (1x HP/1x def)

Ulki (3x spd)

Ranulf (1x spd)

Mordecai (3x spd)

Janaff (2x str)

Lethe (2x str)

[spoiler=Don't Use]

Rhys

Volke

Reyson

Sothe

[Espinosa]

I think Ellincia might actually be better than what I give her credit for? Unlike Mist, she can get to 28 AS with just one Speedwings to not be doubled by anybody besides Naesala and booster-stacked Laguz (and of course Resolve), and her Heaven affinity with useful supports from Ike (who is still invaluable for preserving boosters for other units, even with Oscar gone) and Geoffrey (can be patched up with boosters to function similarly to the better Paladins out there) actually makes the Runesword hit fairly accurately. Ike with Aether + Ellincia with the Runesword + Geoffrey with Sol actually seems like a decent enough core to build your team around.

There are like half a dozen very different teams that I want to try out / see tried out right now; really exciting. I think this is the most promising meta that we have tried to develop by now.

Tiering with all the boosters is too complicated though; I really don't know where to put the non-Runesword mag-stat people and the line I drew between High and Mid seems quite abrupt (why Zihark in High and Mia in Mid; yeah I know why I think Zihark is a good deal better but I can't justify the tier difference). Top and High don't seem terribly distant, either.

[AnonymousSpeed]

I think Ellincia might actually be better than what I give her credit for? Unlike Mist, she can get to 28 AS with just one Speedwings to not be doubled by anybody besides Naesala and booster-stacked Laguz (and of course Resolve), and her Heaven affinity with useful supports from Ike (who is still invaluable for preserving boosters for other units, even with Oscar gone) and Geoffrey (can be patched up with boosters to function similarly to the better Paladins out there) actually makes the Runesword hit fairly accurately. Ike with Aether + Ellincia with the Runesword + Geoffrey with Sol actually seems like a decent enough core to build your team around.

There are like half a dozen very different teams that I want to try out / see tried out right now; really exciting. I think this is the most promising meta that we have tried to develop by now.

Tiering with all the boosters is too complicated though; I really don't know where to put the non-Runesword mag-stat people and the line I drew between High and Mid seems quite abrupt (why Zihark in High and Mia in Mid; yeah I know why I think Zihark is a good deal better but I can't justify the tier difference). Top and High don't seem terribly distant, either.

That is an interesting core idea, remind me work with that once

[Tables]

So I don't really want to read through a thread that's 121 pages long and I only saw this fairly recently, but has there been any discussion about an Awakening version? I feel like Awakening has a lot of potential to be interesting like this, at least if Pair Up and Dual Strike/Guard weren't used. Possibly Braves as well.

[AnonymousSpeed]

I think we should get an Nolan FE10 before we get an FE13, especially given the much blander support system.

[PKL]

Both FE10 and FE13 are too broken for it. Though what we could do (IMO) is add the FE10 characters to over here and adapt them for FE9. I wanna try DSFE btw.

Edited January 25, 2014 by PKL

[AnonymousSpeed]

DS would be okay, reclassing could add in some variety. I think FE10 could work, but you're right, the super flexible support system not only makes having 5 units 'off', though I think it could be interesting. That's just me though.

[Quintessence]

Both FE10 and FE13 are too broken for it. Though what we could do (IMO) is add the FE10 characters to over here and adapt them for FE9. I wanna try DSFE btw.

How will you merge FE10 chars with FE9? Just considering their 20/20 stats and adapt them to FE9's? B-but FE10's so awesome to succumb to FE9 . In case of this being implemented I support FE10's mechanics to prevail :D

DS would be okay, reclassing could add in some variety. I think FE10 could work, but you're right, the super flexible support system not only makes having 5 units 'off', though I think it could be interesting. That's just me though.

To fix the support issues we can just use unused support content from the site (http://serenesforest.net/fe10/supportcut.html) and assume the GBA 5 levels of support as well as Support Bonds.

edit: though I admit FE10 LA is kinda unviable 8'{

Edited January 25, 2014 by Quintessence

[AnonymousSpeed]

To fix the support issues we can just use unused support content from the site (http://serenesforest.net/fe10/supportcut.html) and assume the GBA 5 levels of support as well as Support Bonds.

edit: though I admit FE10 LA is kinda unviable 8'{

I volunteer to test this.

[Da Bear]

The problem with FE10 is that a lot of things need to go, off the top of my head.

Masteries

Royals

Pavise (iirc it's skill= percent chance, so you could have a huge chance of never taking damage. Imagine it stacked with resolve on someone with high skill).

Are all blatantly overpowered for this.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Masteries I think can stay, and royals if limited to one.

After all, we didn't ban them in FE9 and by proportion I find them more powerful in that game.

[Quintessence]

The problem with FE10 is that a lot of things need to go, off the top of my head.

Masteries

Royals

Pavise (iirc it's skill= percent chance, so you could have a huge chance of never taking damage. Imagine it stacked with resolve on someone with high skill).

Are all blatantly overpowered for this.

1) Masteries can be balanced by removing its "critical" effects.

2) They can be nerfed. Although their susceptibility to magic might be a nice way to deal with them, plus Resolve. Nihil needs treatment though. The idea, imo, is seeing the diversity in skills and activation rather than lolRoyals stomping everything.

3) There are only 2 Pavise scrolls (one removable from Tibarn) and I'm pretty positive Resolve doesn't increase skill in terms of activation rate. I don't know if Resolve affects this, although I know Resolve activates before Wrath/Masteries.

[dondon151]

iirc some of the site calcs for masteries are wrong