Healer Mafia - D6 ends on Dec. 15 at 8:00 PM HST

[Grace]

but that still has the problem of "explain prime+kill N2"

shrug. brainpower not quite OP

[Elieson]

N2 I submitted "make vhaltz target grass"

Results *modified* are that I made grass target grass.

Thats my whole n2 results

[Grace]

i keep thinking you're redirector, not hijacker (which is your claim).

which makes another unexplained mystery; why were you redirected off vhaltz? ;/;/;/

(this also shoots down the previous theory rip)

[Zkirsche]

Elie, I know you're waiting for Shinori but that could take awhile. Who is scum?

[Elieson]

Poly = prims > [the person shinori hopefully gives me insight to] > kirsche,

And I'm undecided on scorri atm

[Zkirsche]

Why're Poly/Prims scum?

[Elieson]

poly because questionable play and AtE (which is a policy nono afaiac)

Prims, because of the grassclaimed hook, primarily.

[Elieson]

Wait hurp bbm was hooked by grass (on the night he claimed to have idled)

Fuck ughhh ok I gotta reread prims vs bbm again.

[Zkirsche]

What part of Poly's play do you find questionable, specifically?

[Elieson]

Poly

WHY I THINK HE'S SCUM

Dislikes, but says nvm (a lesser point), but coaching (which I already outlined that I don't find to be really town) So, a minor thing, but just left a sour taste in my mouth.

This post has a strange comment regarding Vhaltz, that caught my eye on a reread

Doesn't find Eury scummy, but votes her anyway. Screams as scummy behavior to me.

His content backing his Grass vote was absolute trash, and amounted to only one mere comment before the actual vote occurred.

Still doesn't give a reason for his grass vote. He isn't even borrowing anyone's reasoning. It's just a lazy wagon-hop.

Again. Did I mention the amount of associative reads he's getting from non-flips, on players that he has like zero public opinion on?

I'd also quote his rolefishing but there's like 4 instances of it, which I've been badgered on enough in the past to know that it's not a town thing to do.

---

AND THE MOST FRUSTRATING THINGS OF ALL WHICH MAKE ME DOUBT MY READS

This rolecrumb makes me want to doubt my reads, but I'm not letting myself base reads on Rolespec

THESE POSTS, which make me doubt my entire case, though I'm not even sure anymore because it doesn't make sense to crumb something that hard without just outright saying what it is.

[Elieson]

Went back to look at Shinori's Results (because I'm at a PC now, in case you can't tell).

N1: Targeted Miria/Dian (Saw 0 visitors)

N2: Targeted scorri, was redirected to Shinori (and got no results, or saw 0 visitors?)

N3: Targeted Elieson, saw 1 visitor (which I want him to confirm his N1 result again before I proceed with this)

Compared to Miria/Dian

N1: Shinori (targeted by a Drive)

N2: Prims (targeted by a Prime, but he received a message from a courier, so ??)

N3: scorri (saw nothing)

Also, received a courier message

[Elieson]

Actually, Manix. What was the message that you got? Was it like a list questionnaire that prims/sb seem to have received?

[Elieson]

I got the courier message. I don't know what all I'm allowed to say about it though.

Actually this concerns me.

[Elieson]

5-post c-c-c-combo because I feel like manix today. Speaking of manix

Are you gay?

Relates to this

[BBM]

Kirsche, are you a Courier? AFAIK the only people who haven't claimed or crumbed heavily are you and Kaoz. If the person who messaged Manix last night is to be believed about not being the one to send the first two Courier messages to SB and Prims, then there are two people with Courier abilities and it has to be both you and Kaoz. If you're not a Courier (or at least claim not to be), then either you or Kaoz have to be lying and one of you is probably scum.

[Elieson]

fuck whatever

I got courier msg last night too, from someone claiming to not be kaoz. I was asked not to reveal it buuuuttttttt I don't see why I should keep it secret.

It asked if I was gay, among other questions.

[Zkirsche]

BBM why do you assume that everyone who has crumbed roles are not lying?

No I am not courier.

[BBM]

Okay so I was reading through Poly's ISO and the first thing that stuck out to me was that on D2 he pushed really hard for the Objection lynch over Grass. All he said about Grass the whole day was "Grass needs to post more, and what he does have content-wise is kinda shit." Then on D3 he opened up with a vote for Grass saying that he was "the scummiest player around" even though he hadn't really ever given reasons for the Grass suspicion. And whatever you want to say about Grass's content, by the end of D2 at least, he definitely had enough posts. Most of Poly's posts today are just idle rolespec and asking for results with no real purpose behind it. Like what's the point of asking who exactly Scorri targeted? And his logic of "claim = clear" is bad and also arbitrarily applied considering he has me and Refa listed as townreads based on confirmed roles but not Manix/Bizz.

Gonna ##Vote: Polydeuces for now.

What the Courier said to Elie is sort of fishy. If he/Kirsche didn't want people to know he wasn't Kaoz, why tell Elie he wasn't Kaoz?

[BBM]

BBM why do you assume that everyone who has crumbed roles are not lying?

No I am not courier.

Because they've all proved their roles except Poly, and scum Courier has no purpose except as a safeclaim. And Poly's in-thread behaviour, regardless of alignment, doesn't match up in any way with the caginess of the Courier that messaged Elie.

[Refa]

Dude BBM, if kaoz is scum that would be super dumb and unfair because he can't even be targeted by night actions or lynched. Also how can he even be lying when he hasn't posted like anything at all. I think kirsche not claiming is dumb because there's no way in hell his role is that good and it's not like he's protecting some better role by not claiming (considering they've all been outed and/or dead), but I don't understand what makes him obvious scum.

If Manix isn't lying about his Courier visit (meaning that there are indeed 2 couriers), I still don't see how either of them are guaranteed to be scum. Now, as far as I recall here were the roleclaims (colors indicate what I think of their alignment).

Manix- Voyeur

Kaoz- N/A

BBM- Safeguard

Shinori- Watcher-Future Hooker

kirsche- N/A

Shinsomniac- Insomniac

Elieson- Compulsive Even-Night Redirector

Polydeuces- Backup Cop

scorri- I don't remember (seriously, can someone tell me what it is)

Refa- Bus Driver

Prims- N/A

Firstly, I don't understand why Prims wasn't on your list of possible Couriers/suspects/w/e (also I don't get how Courier = Arsonist, someone please explain this to me). I believe everyone else except BBM, Shinori, and Polydeuces have proven their role (correct me if I'm wrong on these or the ones that have been proven) or had it confirmed by another player in some way. Not that really matters, because all of the flipped scum roles so far have had MULTIPLE parts to their roles. Like, freakin' seriously, how could you ignore that? So I don't see why a player couldn't be telling the truth about one part of their role and doing another, unless someone can confirm if someone can't do multiple night actions on the same night...In which case, that would narrow things down to kirsche and kaoz...and everyone who hasn't proven their role + Shin because Insomniac doesn't have any night actions.

Actually, speaking of multiple night actions...if BBM was the arsonist that would actually explain a lot. Firstly, how he idled N1 (in which I'm assuming Vhaltz got primed) and used Safeguard and detonated N2 (uh...I guess this is dependent on if primming/setting off counts as actions or not), and primed again N3. Maybe arsonist can prim/kill every other night which would mean holy crap what if Elieson is the arsonist? Ugh, this ITP spec hurts my brain, thinking am hard and stuff. I'll have to come back to that later.

Regardless, the person I'm the most suspicious of is still Shinori, I've laid out my case on like D2 or so, and he's literally done pretty much nothing helpful since (did he ever claim his N1 target? how about his N2 one?). Most confident he'll flip scum. ATM, lynch priority is

Shinori >>> Elieson = BBM, because honestly after Shinori I feel way less confident in my reads, which are in part due to ITP spec and I haven't really reread yet (shut up I'll get around to it). Also because both of them were prior town reads. Plus more importantly, I want to compare them to my nulls, kirsche and scorri being there because I feel like they've been kind of forgettable this game and usually my null reads are more accurate than my scumreads. Don't get me wrong about Shin, I still think he's townie (wait...didn't Manix or someone prove he was town or something? Because that'd bump him up to town reads) it's just...his role man. I don't get it, I really don't. And everyone else I think is town, no need to explain really except for Polydeuces. After thinking about it, I think I was just suspicious because of his lack of claimed actions which can be attributed to several other people in the game, all of which I find scummier...So yeah.

[Refa]

Also BBM I basically did the same thing D3 in regards to Grass (I don't remember writing any new suspicions about him anyways) and HAMMERED him which preemptively ended discussion, so why is Poly worse than say, I?

[Elieson]

Refa, grass hooked bbm so whether or not bbm idled, he wouldny have done anything

[Elieson]

Also good lord refa a few posts above yours, I organized the in thread claimed results from shinori. And you didn't explain why I'm your second scum read. And prims claimed miller too btw

[BBM]

Prims has been crumbing something other than Courier all game and said outright he was an investigative role and also wouldn't be so cagey as Courier.

I know that both the mafia members have had multiple parts to their role, which is exactly the point. They both had a "townie" part to their role, like Watcher and Mayor that were supposed to be their safeclaim, and portions like Godfather Janitor and Ninja Rolecop that were supposed to be hidden. If there's a mafia Courier + X, Courier would obviously be the townie part of their role that they would claim, because it has no intrinsic benefit to the mafia, so it being bent towards the purpose of the town doesn't matter. And I'm not saying that the Courier has to be scum, I'm saying that they are if they're lying. Which is why I said that if the person who messaged Manix said they weren't the initial Courier and Kirsche also said he wasn't the initial Courier, either Kirsche or Kaoz would have to be lying. I don't think Kaoz is scum either; the natural extension of this that I suppose I forgot to mention is that in that case Kirsche would be scum.

I've proved my role by blocking Shinori's action on Scorri N2 and Shinori proved his role today by knowing that someone visited Elie before Elie revealed he was messaged by a Courier. So yeah I think Kirsche might be lying about not being a Courier because people are suspecting that the Courier and Arsonist are tied together. Going to reread him in a bit.

[BBM]

Refa, you might not have given any new reasons for Grass being scum, but you spoke a lot more about him on D2 than Poly did. That being said I don't necessarily think you're town either; I still have to reread your ISO. But from what I remember of your posts, they've been better than Poly's.

Also, Venno said specifically in #904 that he targeted Elie on N2 and "didn't get anything that suggested scum." Pretty sure he's town.