Mia or Zihark?

[Titamon]

*sigh* Was it too much to hope that people would stop being stupid regarding Mia vs. Zihark? Part of me almost wants to bring this up in the tier-lists again if only because there are some actual responses there. However, seeing as Mia's already on top and I'm pretty sure some mod will at least give me a warning to stop that fight in its tracks so we don't have another year-long slogfest debate, I won't. (Plus, I'm not THAT incapable of self-control.)

If someone wants to play without employing a mounted unit rush, they can. There is no rule aside from LTC obsession that says mounts are the only way, or even the best way, to play FE9. Yes, the mounted units have a statistical power that outperforms pretty much everything. I don't think anyone would argue that either Mia or Zihark is superior to any mounted unit except for a few glaring exceptions (Elincia, Haar, and potentially G and Mist if they're really obsessive and willing to ignore things).

Rhys is a 0-cost unit, one of three in the game. He actually kind of gives EXP back in the form of allowing your units to fight longer. He can easily get all his EXP from staff-use (and gold/stealing is so common/easy it's not an issue). Ilyana as well can resort to staves and siege-tomes once she promotes. It's not optimal, but it is doable. Brom has no excuse though (or Muarim for that matter).

Zihark will, on average, have a ~20% chance of activating Adept. That's not a lot and you're staking entire kills on it as opposed to just giving him a forged sword? Of which we have a lot of? And how is using criticals a bad thing when both Mia and Zihark can get 20-50% easy but Adept so awesome when it only gives a 20% average chance? I'd sooner give Zihark the vantage scroll and a +crit sword than rely on adept for kills if I somehow couldn't have both adept and vantage.

Erm. Mia is better when any effort is put into her for returns. Zihark is only better when no effort is put into her at all.

So if I said 'Ena > Ike and don't bother arguing because if I wanted to use a footunit I'm happy with Boyd, Devdan, and Soren' you shouldn't bother pointing out how/why that's wrong?

Yea. It's a bad idea. Soren might get to 50% health easy, but you'll be stuck relying on his iffy dodge during the EP for every strike and he's very frail. Plus, once he doubles, he's not going to have any problems at all (Forged Thunder is, arguably, the most broken non-unique weapon in the game. Certainly up there, and Soren has PLENTY of magic to spare).

So Mia is better only with favoritism? Well duh! Zihark has better growths and better stats, any resources that you can give to Mia can be given to him.

[Titamon]

*sigh* Was it too much to hope that people would stop being stupid regarding Mia vs. Zihark? Part of me almost wants to bring this up in the tier-lists again if only because there are some actual responses there. However, seeing as Mia's already on top and I'm pretty sure some mod will at least give me a warning to stop that fight in its tracks so we don't have another year-long slogfest debate, I won't. (Plus, I'm not THAT incapable of self-control.)

If someone wants to play without employing a mounted unit rush, they can. There is no rule aside from LTC obsession that says mounts are the only way, or even the best way, to play FE9. Yes, the mounted units have a statistical power that outperforms pretty much everything. I don't think anyone would argue that either Mia or Zihark is superior to any mounted unit except for a few glaring exceptions (Elincia, Haar, and potentially G and Mist if they're really obsessive and willing to ignore things).

Rhys is a 0-cost unit, one of three in the game. He actually kind of gives EXP back in the form of allowing your units to fight longer. He can easily get all his EXP from staff-use (and gold/stealing is so common/easy it's not an issue). Ilyana as well can resort to staves and siege-tomes once she promotes. It's not optimal, but it is doable. Brom has no excuse though (or Muarim for that matter).

Zihark will, on average, have a ~20% chance of activating Adept. That's not a lot and you're staking entire kills on it as opposed to just giving him a forged sword? Of which we have a lot of? And how is using criticals a bad thing when both Mia and Zihark can get 20-50% easy but Adept so awesome when it only gives a 20% average chance? I'd sooner give Zihark the vantage scroll and a +crit sword than rely on adept for kills if I somehow couldn't have both adept and vantage.

Erm. Mia is better when any effort is put into her for returns. Zihark is only better when no effort is put into her at all.

So if I said 'Ena > Ike and don't bother arguing because if I wanted to use a footunit I'm happy with Boyd, Devdan, and Soren' you shouldn't bother pointing out how/why that's wrong?

Yea. It's a bad idea. Soren might get to 50% health easy, but you'll be stuck relying on his iffy dodge during the EP for every strike and he's very frail. Plus, once he doubles, he's not going to have any problems at all (Forged Thunder is, arguably, the most broken non-unique weapon in the game. Certainly up there, and Soren has PLENTY of magic to spare).

So Mia is better only with favoritism? Well duh! Zihark has better growths and better stats, any resources that you can give to Mia can be given to him.

[Chiki]

He's saying that Zihark actually NEEDS Muarim to function. Which means that Zihark is a bad unit without Muarim. What kind of a silly statement is that?

[Elieson]

Zihark doesn't do anything unless maurim is glued to him?

Compared to Mia who can do shittons with Rhys glued to her?

[Brendor]

What skill do you guys think I should couple with vantage?

My original thoughts were either Guard or Adept or Wrath but

1: I missed the guard scroll so that's out

2: wrath seems overpowered as she almost always gets crits on her own so..

3: she already crits and doubles everything

Maybe I shouldn't pair it at all?

[Snowy_One]

So Mia is better only with favoritism? Well duh! Zihark has better growths and better stats, any resources that you can give to Mia can be given to him.

Feel free to do so. He lacks the +attack supports to make the SS work, requires vantage and potentially more to work, and his STR and avoid leads are pointless due to vantaged crits. Zihark requires more favoritism to compete with Mia once you stop neglecting them.

What skill do you guys think I should couple with vantage?
My original thoughts were either Guard or Adept or Wrath but
1: I missed the guard scroll so that's out
2: wrath seems overpowered as she almost always gets crits on her own so..
3: she already crits and doubles everything

Maybe I shouldn't pair it at all?

No. Pair it for sure. Later on the enemies will get stronger and Mia will hit her cap. Gamble can be viable if done right, but it takes a lot of effort and you're already critting a lot. Adept would probably be a good choice here.

[Brendor]

Gamble I planned on giving to shinon since most of his attacks are made during the player phase anyway and he's the only other character I plan on using with the +15 crit bonus

[izanagi61]

why is that one guy saying zihark needs vantage to work? by that logic, everyone is worse than mia cause mia has vantage. vantage is good but not essential for zihark to work. also i've used both of them multiple times without supports. they both function about the same. in this current playthrough, i had the crazy idea to use both of them. at 20/1 they are nearly identical except mia has - 2 str but + 2 res and HP so really the difference is slight. zihark still edges out because he needs less resources, but both are equally good.

[Brendor]

Why is everyone saying Mia's strength is shit? The first time I ever used Mia and she has more strength than Boyd ._.

[Shadow Mir]

Why is everyone saying Mia's strength is shit? The first time I ever used Mia and she has more strength than Boyd ._.

Personal experience means nothing. You can have an awesome Mia (or any character, really) one playthrough, then have them suck the next.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Phantom037]

Why is everyone saying Mia's strength is shit? The first time I ever used Mia and she has more strength than Boyd ._.

Your Mia is the Mia to rule all Mia's.

[Brendor]

I suppose that's true but it's uncanny how well my guys are doing especially Mia

[Loki Laufeyson]

Yeah, whats going on with your Mia isnt really the average outcome. Snowy_One does to Mia what i do with Soren. Dumps resources and EXP/BEXP and stuff into the unit to make him/her amazeballs and due to such favoritism, said unit comes out awesome on average. With that kind of favoritism, a unit will always come out good. But that favoritism isnt what most players do, especially in LTC/Efficiency runs. So basing ones argument around that is really silly. We all know X Unit will become good with [oodles of stuff/supports/etc], but like...whos doing that unless they love the character? My Soren may wind up with an A rank in Thunder for Bolting hilarity, but dondon's Soren is going to look vastly different.

[Snowy_One]

Why is everyone saying Mia's strength is shit? The first time I ever used Mia and she has more strength than Boyd ._.

On average Mia ends up with about 21-22 STR compared to the paladins 23-25 STR, which is just a bit below average. As a result, people enjoy ragging on how weak she is. Ironically, I'm positive most of the negative Mia remarks are based on personal experience (it's not THAT big of a deficit and units like Nephenee, who are usually loved, only have 1-2 more points). Heck, Muarim, whom people tend to love, ends up with only 36/37/40 MT (depending on band) while Mia can hit 39 easy and then get 4 more from supports (Muarim has no support bonuses) and that's not to mention her critical hits and Muarim's iffy speed (He's tied with Rhys before transformation).

IMO a lot of this goes back to Gamefaqs when, due to the tiering wars, smash fanatic ranked Mia as the worst character in the game and far too many people still agree with him, or at least his reasons why.

why is that one guy saying zihark needs vantage to work? by that logic, everyone is worse than mia cause mia has vantage. vantage is good but not essential for zihark to work. also i've used both of them multiple times without supports. they both function about the same. in this current playthrough, i had the crazy idea to use both of them. at 20/1 they are nearly identical except mia has - 2 str but + 2 res and HP so really the difference is slight. zihark still edges out because he needs less resources, but both are equally good.

Vantage is an awesome skill, flat out and unquestioned. Just having it gives you a major leg-up. For swordsmasters it's extra-awesome since their critical hits and crit-boost mean that can KO an enemy before they get the chance to launch an attack. The only swordsmaster who wouldn't be the 'best' in my eyes if they came with vantage would be Lucia (due to her late joining and lack-luster stats). It just so happens Mia is the one who has it. This isn't to mention that vantage is an amazing combo-skill as it drastically enhances the utility of any skill that can function on the EP as well. Adept has a chance of triggering before an enemy strike and killing them, wrath allows for criticals stopping the enemy before they can even attack, guard can outright stop the attack. Normally these skills would only 'matter' on the first strike of the player-phase (guarding on the second strike is useless and adept/wrath only if you wouldn't kill the enemy already, at which point why are you sending the unit after them as opposed to a stronger one?), but you can't control the EP actions so things like that may very well come up.

Yeah, whats going on with your Mia isnt really the average outcome. Snowy_One does to Mia what i do with Soren. Dumps resources and EXP/BEXP and stuff into the unit to make him/her amazeballs and due to such favoritism, said unit comes out awesome on average. With that kind of favoritism, a unit will always come out good. But that favoritism isnt what most players do, especially in LTC/Efficiency runs. So basing ones argument around that is really silly. We all know X Unit will become good with [oodles of stuff/supports/etc], but like...whos doing that unless they love the character? My Soren may wind up with an A rank in Thunder for Bolting hilarity, but dondon's Soren is going to look vastly different.

The only 'favoritism' I give Mia normally is wrath, a Rhys support, and keeping her on-level with my other units if possible.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Snowy_One

[Chiki]

On average Mia ends up with about 21-22 STR compared to the paladins 23-25 STR, which is just a bit below average.

Heck, Muarim, whom people tend to love, ends up with only 36/37/40 MT

Lol at using 20/20 averages. No one cares what they end up with. What we care about is how they perform throughout the game, not at the final chapter.

Was it too much to hope that people would stop being stupid regarding Mia vs. Zihark?

You're the last person who should be talking. I've never seen you make even a remotely intelligent argument or a point.

There is no rule aside from LTC obsession that says mounts are the only way, or even the best way, to play FE9.

LTC players don't even think mounts are the "only" way to do anything. We acknowledge and respect other ways to play. Stop making thinly-veiled comments which aren't even true just to satisfy your petty grudge.

Rhys is a 0-cost unit, one of three in the game. He actually kind of gives EXP back in the form of allowing your units to fight longer. He can easily get all his EXP from staff-use (and gold/stealing is so common/easy it's not an issue)

Self-contradiction. First bolded part implies being a 0 cost unit is a good thing, second part implies gold is so common that cost doesn't matter. See what I mean about you never making an intelligent argument?

Erm. Mia is better when any effort is put into her for returns. Zihark is only better when no effort is put into her at all.

Why shouldn't we give Zihark the same amount of effort?

The only 'favoritism' I give Mia normally is wrath, a Rhys support, and keeping her on-level with my other units if possible.

Lol! Then let's just give Zihark Vantage or whatever else skill he needs so he can keep up with Mia.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Chiki

[Samias]

I am surprised no one has shot down comparing Muarim to Mia at all. Muarim and Mordecai (and to a lesser extent Lethe and Ranulf) are valuable because they can shove/smite mounts. Their early game combat IS pretty good but the tigers have a level of utility that no footie is ever going to reach.

The difference between Mia and Zihark is negligible to the point that the arguments on both sides is incredibly overblown selling Mia/Zihark's advantages, but this is really getting stupid.

[Snowy_One]

Lol at using 20/20 averages. No one cares what they end up with. What we care about is how they perform throughout the game, not at the final chapter.

Then don't use them. It comes out the same way either way. Muarim has ~28/29 STR when he joins, but Mia can quickly get ~28 STR by just using a forged steel sword and various bonuses. He's not quite that dominating when you don't sandbag Mia.

You're the last person who should be talking. I've never seen you make even a remotely intelligent argument or a point.

That's nice. *pats on the head* One day, if you try hard enough, you will learn some real logic.

LTC players don't even think mounts are the "only" way to do anything. We acknowledge and respect other ways to play. Stop making thinly-veiled comments which aren't even true just to satisfy your petty grudge.

PHAHAHAHA! Sorry, I've never once seen this happen. Ever. Not on the tier lists once LTC became the standard, not in any other topic. And yes, I do have a grudge against LTC, but I both acknowledge it and have shown in the past that I'm willing to work within the confines of it even if I despise it with a passion. IIRC, I was the first one to even point out Mia can save turns before Zihark joins.

Self-contradiction. First bolded part implies being a 0 cost unit is a good thing, second part implies gold is so common that cost doesn't matter. See what I mean about you never making an intelligent argument?

... So it's better to have some cost to being used? Even if you give the same performance?

Also, yes, gold is indeed common. Certainly common enough to make the forged handaxes/javelins/thunders commonly used in LTC runs viable. Besides, the most expensive staff you can get before the final chapter is a Restore which costs 2000 (about the same as a silver weapon), has 15 uses, and can only be used if an ally gets a condition. It doesn't even give that much EXP (Physic gives more) so even if it didn't require a condition you'd probably only use it after using up your physic staves.

Edit: That's not to mention you can get one in chapter 9 for free simply by visiting a village.

Why shouldn't we give Zihark the same amount of effort?

Sure. Except Zihark's supports are all avoid/defense based which vantage will be, hopefully, nullifying and if we want a combo other than vantage/adept we have to spend two skill-scrolls instead of the one for Mia. Zihark also won't likely have enough magic (7 vs 12 at max level. 14 vs. 19 with dusts and band. 23 with supports) to wield the SS barring RNG abuse.

Remember, the 'effort' being given to Mia is a Rhys support, possibly Ilyana support, one of three skills, and not sandbagging her. Zihark is almost always assumed his Muarim support and usually gets his Ilyana support or it's never come up (he's never had to argue for it), if he's being sandbagged no one has ever mentioned it, and he's already getting one of the most valuable skills in the game just to compete with Mia, possibly having to take one more (as opposed to Mia's flat-one-skill cost).

Lol! Then let's just give Zihark Vantage or whatever else skill he needs so he can keep up with Mia.

He can't keep up though. Mia's potential peak is simply higher than Zihark's. She's got better skill flexibility (she only needs one. Not to mention she's one of the few units who might actually be able to use Gamble. Zihark simply doesn't have the hit), better supports, the ability to at least potentially use the SS well, and an earlier joining time. Even if Zihark and Mia ended up the exact same (which they don't) the last one ensures her victory over Zihark.

I am surprised no one has shot down comparing Muarim to Mia at all. Muarim and Mordecai (and to a lesser extent Lethe and Ranulf) are valuable because they can shove/smite mounts. Their early game combat IS pretty good but the tigers have a level of utility that no footie is ever going to reach.

The Laguz late-game is universally bad though. Their weapons are stuck at steel-level and they either have to take the band (which there is only one of) or work around the transform gauge. Mordi is the only Laguz with a decent endgame might and he has some big speed issues.

The difference between Mia and Zihark is negligible to the point that the arguments on both sides is incredibly overblown selling Mia/Zihark's advantages, but this is really getting stupid.

I actually wouldn't disagree, but a lot of people love insisting that Zihark is de facto better than Mia. Even if it was true, it isn't by much and certainly not outside the realm of personal preference. However, history has shown me time and time again that, if people don't stand up for Mia, Zihark loves will gladly argue her down entire tiers simply for being Mia and a potential threat.

I certainly see both as superior to Stefan though.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Snowy_One

[Loki Laufeyson]

The only 'favoritism' I give Mia normally is wrath, a Rhys support, and keeping her on-level with my other units if possible.

Rubbish. You've argued time and again about that damned Sonic Sword, Energy Drops, and Spirit Dusts. Dude, just own it.

[PuffPuff]

3) And a double-dusted Mia is supposed to be impressive with a support from Rhys, who's bottom 3 in durability for the entire game? You crack me up. Never mind she needs all that just to match a double-dusted Tanith... owait, DA CRIT. Nope, sorry. I'm not impressed.

ITT: Wrath comes in chapter 7 or something.

Honestly, I think that this game is one of the ones where Swordmasters were pretty lackluster.

This is why that Mia needs one of the Serpah Robes. Her base stats aren't as good as Zihark's and that she will need it to keep from getting in critical state after just one hit. (Bad defense)

So Mia is better only with favoritism? Well duh! Zihark has better growths and better stats, any resources that you can give to Mia can be given to him.

True.

But he will need assistance from 1~2 ranged attackers as he never will be good enough against them and that his low Res is to be looked out for with Wards and Pure Waters whenever he is around mages.

Why is everyone saying Mia's strength is shit? The first time I ever used Mia and she has more strength than Boyd ._.

That's not likely when Boyd averages up to 5.2 more str than Mia does at LV20.

Personal experience means nothing. You can have an awesome Mia (or any character, really) one playthrough, then have them suck the next.

^

And this...

That is why that Mia will never be above UU tier.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Dark_Huntress

[Snowy_One]

Rubbish. You've argued time and again about that damned Sonic Sword, Energy Drops, and Spirit Dusts. Dude, just own it.

Context.

I don't see Mia's STR as a problem. Yes it is 'low', but not by much, but it is also fixable if you really can't stand being maybe 2 points under and can't give her a forge, support, or anything else. Simply giving her a STR band or an energy drop is enough to fix any 'problems' Mia has with STR. Best part is, there are FIVE ways to easily fix Mia's STR 'problems' (three bands and two drops) as opposed to the ONE skill that let's Zihark compete.

As for the SS, the point is that this is something Mia CAN do that Zihark simply CANNOT! The best you can do is give him the SS, vantage, and guard and hope he guards a few strikes during the EP with no kills because he simply doesn't have the magic needed to kill. Not to mention that no other unit in the game needs the dusts or band (or at least it's never been argued to my knowledge), giving Mia a distinct edge.

In any other situation this wouldn't even be a contest. Mia joins earlier, has better supports (Zihark's supports only help his defense and Muarim struggles in the later game. Rhys can always be useful), has better skills (vantage is the most OP'ed non-scroll skill), and can fight at 1-2 range when Zihark cannot. I'd say that's pretty decisive.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Snowy_One

[Shadow Mir]

WRT the Sonic Sword, what about killing wyverns, which damn near any swordie can do with it regardless of Mag? Unless the user has really high Mag, that's about all it's good for. Also, given that mages have to work with piss-weak weapons, I'd say they'd have a good claim on the Spirit Dusts - who else wants them, really?

Edited December 10, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Elieson]

Why is mia getting dusts when seigers exist????

Isnt this an argument of zihark v mia in a vacuum?

[Brendor]

Uh guys?..

I made my choice already. Like a long time ago ._.

Although I don't know who to give gamble to; Mia or Shinon. I thought Shinon originally but I didn't realize how godamn fragile he is

[Icon of Sin]

Give it to Muston.

[Ϲharlie]

Uh guys?..

I made my choice already. Like a long time ago ._.

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