Mia or Zihark?

[Snowy_One]

WRT the Sonic Sword, what about killing wyverns, which damn near any swordie can do with it regardless of Mag? Unless the user has really high Mag, that's about all it's good for. Also, given that mages have to work with piss-weak weapons, I'd say they'd have a good claim on the Spirit Dusts - who else wants them, really?

Mages also have access to forged thunder and attack RES, which is easily almost always lower than DEF. The few times they won't be using it they will be wielding siege tomes (which have very few uses and they can't double with anyways) or staves (for healing). Even THEN, Mia only needs the dusts OR the band (though both certainly help), so it is at least decently likely that the mages won't care.

I made my choice already. Like a long time ago ._.

Although I don't know who to give gamble to; Mia or Shinon. I thought Shinon originally but I didn't realize how godamn fragile he is

Who should get gamble is purely a matter of 'who can reliably hit with it'. A fully supported Mia can breach 200 hit making her one of the few people who can use it. Shinon has iffy hit supports (Gatrie and Rolf. Ignoring their quality, this means you'd need to bring two snipers onto your team) and bows don't quite have the same hit as swords. IMO, go with Mia unless you've either ignored her supports entirely or have a different skill set-up in mind. She is a bit more likely to actually hit.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Snowy_One

[bridatass]

Snowy I have absolutely no idea how you are justifying these supports of +2 strength and you are saying that it's fine, Zihark caps at 24 str and Mia caps at 22 str thus making her supports useless.

Admittedly my Mia got RNG screwed quite badly but Zihark capped Strength at level 17 and this was all a one-take I mean seriously is vantage worth that much?

Of course we can say My unit is the rule to all of my units but the higher cap speaks for itself anyway, that is something Mia can never achieve.

[Shadow Mir]

Uh guys?..

I made my choice already. Like a long time ago ._.

Although I don't know who to give gamble to; Mia or Shinon. I thought Shinon originally but I didn't realize how godamn fragile he is

Neither. Gamble sucks.

[dondon151]

Although I don't know who to give gamble to; Mia or Shinon. I thought Shinon originally but I didn't realize how godamn fragile he is

if deadeye does indeed double your innate accuracy, you should give gamble to shinon.

[Espinosa]

if deadeye does indeed double your innate accuracy, you should give gamble to shinon.

You do not have the skill capacity for both.

[Shadow Mir]

if deadeye does indeed double your innate accuracy, you should give gamble to shinon.

You can't, as Gamble's 10 capacity and Deadeye's 20.

Doh, cat man got me.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Chiki]

Then don't use them. It comes out the same way either way. Muarim has ~28/29 STR when he joins, but Mia can quickly get ~28 STR by just using a forged steel sword and various bonuses. He's not quite that dominating when you don't sandbag Mia.

"Various bonuses" lol. Yeah just keep giving Mia favoritism and denying the same to Zihark. Mindblowingly stupid sandbagging.

Let's now consider what you mean by "various bonuses" and see what silly sandbagged advantages you give to Mia. Also, Mia will also likely be around level 16 by the time Muarim shows up, which means she has 11 strength when Muarim shows up on average. Forged steel swords have 13 might, giving her 24 might. B Rhys gives 2 attack points, giving her 26 strength. 2-3 strength is quite a significant difference.

Note that Mia is not entitled for a B Rhys support; nor is Zihark entitled for a Muarim support. There is a very good chance Mia won't be supporting anyone.

PHAHAHAHA! Sorry, I've never once seen this happen. Ever. Not on the tier lists once LTC became the standard, not in any other topic. And yes, I do have a grudge against LTC, but I both acknowledge it and have shown in the past that I'm willing to work within the confines of it even if I despise it with a passion. IIRC, I was the first one to even point out Mia can save turns before Zihark joins.

Oh look, a lie. It was aku chi who came up with the strategy, not you.

... So it's better to have some cost to being used?

This is coming from the precocious Snowy who knows real logic? Cost doesn't matter right? This is what you said:

gold/stealing is so common/easy it's not an issue

It's not an issue. In other words, it's not better (that's another strawman on your part, I never even implied it was better). It's just irrelevant.

Except Zihark's supports are all avoid/defense based which vantage will be, hopefully, nullifying and if we want a combo other than vantage/adept we have to spend two skill-scrolls instead of the one for Mia.

So what if his supports are all avoid and defense based? Mia has less strength. The supports just enable Mia to catch up to Zihark's strength and Zihark to catch up to Mia's avoid. They're the same in that regard.

We can't have a combo other than Vantage/Adept if we give Vantage to Zihark. There's something called "capacity." The only way to give him another combo would be to delete it, and it would be asinine to waste Zihark's Adept by deleting it. Give it to someone else who can make better use of it instead of stupidly deleting it.

Zihark also won't likely have enough magic (7 vs 12 at max level. 14 vs. 19 with dusts and band. 23 with supports) to wield the SS barring RNG abuse.

Facepalm. Another lie of yours:

The only 'favoritism' I give Mia normally is wrath, a Rhys support, and keeping her on-level with my other units if possible.

Where are Dusts in your favoritism here?

[Brendor]

Neither. Gamble sucks.

Nah chill, they both have a natural crit of 60 with killer weapons so 60x2 means a certain critical

Even without a killer weapon, 30x2 is 60% and with 2 hits so that's a pretty good chance to destroy bosses or general tough units.

Also I think I'll give Ike Wrath

[Shadow Mir]

Nah chill, they both have a natural crit of 60 with killer weapons so 60x2 means a certain critical

Even without a killer weapon, 30x2 is 60% and with 2 hits so that's a pretty good chance to destroy bosses or general tough units.

Also I think I'll give Ike Wrath

Which means jack shit if you miss. Trading hit for crit is shooting yourself in the foot, big time.

[Brendor]

Well that, Adept and Wrath are the only real skills I have to give out right now :(

[Loki Laufeyson]

Context.

I don't see Mia's STR as a problem. Yes it is 'low', but not by much, but it is also fixable if you really can't stand being maybe 2 points under and can't give her a forge, support, or anything else. Simply giving her a STR band or an energy drop is enough to fix any 'problems' Mia has with STR. Best part is, there are FIVE ways to easily fix Mia's STR 'problems' (three bands and two drops) as opposed to the ONE skill that let's Zihark compete.

As for the SS, the point is that this is something Mia CAN do that Zihark simply CANNOT! The best you can do is give him the SS, vantage, and guard and hope he guards a few strikes during the EP with no kills because he simply doesn't have the magic needed to kill. Not to mention that no other unit in the game needs the dusts or band (or at least it's never been argued to my knowledge), giving Mia a distinct edge.

In any other situation this wouldn't even be a contest. Mia joins earlier, has better supports (Zihark's supports only help his defense and Muarim struggles in the later game. Rhys can always be useful), has better skills (vantage is the most OP'ed non-scroll skill), and can fight at 1-2 range when Zihark cannot. I'd say that's pretty decisive.

Why do you keep doing this? Why do you not just own up to the fact you give Mia all the things in order for that to even work? Why is she using the SS to begin with when Tanith is going to use it just fine without all the resources? Why is Mia the "best" option for that weapon when she's clearly not? No one is arguing that Zihark can use the SS better than Mia can. Say like, bridatass' screens, Mia has 8 mag. Two Dusts bring it to 12. Ok. But doesnt someone else like Tanith come with a base of 14? Why is Mia getting the sword in the first place, if not for favoritism? If we continue to use the screens presented, using Dusts on Zihark would give him 11 mag. Thats only one point lower than Mia. My point is this: You use Mia a lot and pour resource after resource into her, but act as if this is the best strategy and the beat-all argument to support the unit. Which is nonsense. Its like me saying my God!Soren recipe in RD is the only/best way in using the character.

Look at bridatass' screens. Mia is marginally better with avoid, hit and mag. Zihark is marginally better in Def, (well, this guy's Z-man has nice defense) HP, Strength, and Attack. I like Zihark better generally speaking, so im going to use him. But Mia is NOT better. Mia might have a level lead by the time Zihark joins but her stats arent better unless you get super lucky.

Well that, Adept and Wrath are the only real skills I have to give out right now :(

Ike wants Wrath if hes got the capacity. Adept? Uhhhhhh ahhhh i dunno...whos on your team? Gamble is butt so its not worth it.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Loki Laufeyson

[Brendor]

I didn't recruit Stefan and I gave the ch 13 occult to oscar so he has the capacity.

Who's on the team...

Ike

Oscar

Mia

Mist

Volke

Shinon

Boyd

Neph

Mordecai (just for smite and to give Mist +3 atk & def)

Soren

Reyson

And chapter 19 if that matters

[Loki Laufeyson]

Neph might like Adept but i dunno, by this point, she may not even need it. LOL! That Adept scroll usually winds up on Marcia on my runs for sword use funzies. /shrug I think its just up to you.

[PKL]

I usually just give Adept to Marceeuh too. You can do whatever you want with it, though Neph might make the better use of it our of those, due to her spd. Not sure if she can equip adept and her wrath.

[Brendor]

Neph has vantage so she destroys everything at half health

Maybe gamble for shinon and adept for Mia? Not sure

[PKL]

Don't waste Adept :p

[Brendor]

She's really good :o

As a level 7 Swordmaster her stats are

39 HP

21 STR

13 MAG

21 SKILL

27 SPEED

19 LUCK

17 DEF

8 RES

Besides I'm not sure who else to give it to.

I thought about Ike, but he's going to want Resolve once I get to chapter 28 and he's already raping everything with his stats (except Neasala )

[Snowy_One]

"Various bonuses" lol. Yeah just keep giving Mia favoritism and denying the same to Zihark. Mindblowingly stupid sandbagging.

How am I sandbagging Zihark? Mia has supports that boost her attack because MIA HAS ATTACK BOOSTING SUPPORTS! Zihark does not! The only one he sort of has is a Brom support which only gives him 1 MT at B level. Sure, he can have it if he wants, but that doesn't change that it's only +1 (as opposed to the potential +4 for Mia) attack. Plus, Brom has both serious movement and speed issues. Yes, Rhys has the same problem, but he can at least do something to help the team out via healing and, shockingly, he can do so without leaving Mia's range and can fall back on a purge. Brom can't do either of those things and being extra durable doesn't matter for squat if there are no enemies around for you to be durable against.

Is it the skills? Am I somehow sandbagging Zihark by pointing out that Vantage is the most valuable skill in the game that doesn't require a mastery scroll? Is it pointing out that Zihark needs two skill scrolls for vantage/wrath or vantage/guard while Mia only needs one?

Do you think I'm somehow denying Zihark resources? I'm not. The simple fact is that Mia's potential peak is higher. She deals more damage with the SS, has better skill utility, and the only real 'question' is 'how much does it cost to make her better' not 'is she better'.

Let's now consider what you mean by "various bonuses" and see what silly sandbagged advantages you give to Mia. Also, Mia will also likely be around level 16 by the time Muarim shows up, which means she has 11 strength when Muarim shows up on average. Forged steel swords have 13 might, giving her 24 might. B Rhys gives 2 attack points, giving her 26 strength. 2-3 strength is quite a significant difference.

If 2-3 strength is enough to make Muarim 'OMG so awesome' and ignorable once silver weapons come along which will make all Laguz obsolete, you have more serious problems. Remember, you're comparing Mia, a unit people constantly call weak and base their entire arguments around why she sucks around how weak she is, to a unit whom other people claim is an outright dominator from the moment he joins and only suffers small slow-down later on; and she's losing only by 2 points. In order to keep up once silver comes around Muarim is going to have to remove his band and deal with the Laguz transform issues. If the tier list didn't adore movement so much I'm perfectly willing to wager that both Zihark and Mia would be above Muarim.

Speaking of which, Zihark. He's got 2 more STR than Mia, reduced to a 0 lead with supports unless he took Brom at which point his lead is a whopping 1. And Mia has the better skill by FAR, especially when considering that Adept only has a 16% chance of activating at this level. Assuming you're killing in 2 hits (you better hope you are for Muarim's sake as he has only a 2 point lead according to your math) this means that there is only a 16% chance of adept mattering, when it activates on the one player-phase attack before the enemy strikes. Otherwise it's just fancy animation and I doubt you're going to fling Zihark against a foe he can't 2HKO and pray adept activates as opposed to a critical (which works better with vantage).

Note that Mia is not entitled for a B Rhys support; nor is Zihark entitled for a Muarim support. There is a very good chance Mia won't be supporting anyone.

Here is the thing. No matter how much you sandbag Mia, there is always another option. Remove her supports, she can take a band. Yes, she comes in less, but if 2 MT is a gamebreaker you're probably playing with a very specific goal in mind rendering any arguing pointless. Don't like the bands? There is the drops. There are literally five ways to 'fix' Mia's STR problems so that she's losing by only 2 points without touching supports and there is only one way to fix Zihark's lack of a vantage or wrath/vantage. Besides, Mia can take wrath and give the spare vantage to Nephenee or Ike if you really want to do that. Zihark cannot as he needs to take the one key skill. 2 > 1. Mia/Nephenee with wrath/vantage > just Zihark.

Oh look, a lie. It was aku chi who came up with the strategy, not you.

Then forgive me for remembering it wrong.

This is coming from the precocious Snowy who knows real logic? Cost doesn't matter right? This is what you said:

gold/stealing is so common/easy it's not an issue

It's not an issue. In other words, it's not better (that's another strawman on your part, I never even implied it was better). It's just irrelevant.

*facepalm* I didn't think it was possible, but I should have known better than to doubt the tier lists. Yes, 0-cost units require equipment to be used. It also takes EXP to ensure a Laguz can fight for any prolonged period of time, having a sword only one unit can use and isn't sellable and has infinite uses still requires said unit to level up, and the like. Rhys, however, aside from ensuring he has the proper staff, doesn't need EXP, special skills, or a special item (not in the same sense as a stat-booster at least) to contribute. The most he needs is a physic staff and if you REALLY can't afford to keep a staff in Rhys's hands, you've got other issues beyond Rhys. It's like claiming you can't spare a bucket of water to put out a fire because you dirtied your nails again and need an entire swimming pool to clean them.

So what if his supports are all avoid and defense based? Mia has less strength. The supports just enable Mia to catch up to Zihark's strength and Zihark to catch up to Mia's avoid. They're the same in that regard.

Those 'avoid and defense-based' supports mean Zihark cannot use the SS barring massive RNG blessing, meaning Mia will have a big thing over Zihark that he is shut out from (1-2 range). Additionally, if your vantage combo is working, you're not going to be needing the supports because the enemy is dead. Dead enemies don't need to be avoided or defended against.

We can't have a combo other than Vantage/Adept if we give Vantage to Zihark. There's something called "capacity." The only way to give him another combo would be to delete it, and it would be asinine to waste Zihark's Adept by deleting it. Give it to someone else who can make better use of it instead of stupidly deleting it.

Sure. Go right ahead. However this means 2 things.

1) Zihark will be locked to vantage/adept. If he wants to use vantage/wrath or vantage/guard he needs to delete his adept and spend another scroll. MIA DOES NOT HAVE TO DO THIS! The one skill that's central to ANY vantage combo is VANTAGE! Not Adept.

2) Mia can do the same. However, since adept is nowhere near as valuable as vantage for building combos, there is nothing stopping her from giving vantage to Nephenee, Ike, Stefan, Lucia, Soren, Ilyana, or anyone in general with either a crit-boosted or brave weapon available. The swordmasters are the best investment, sure, but Mia has the option for other investments. Since Zihark took the key skill though, it's just Zihark.

Facepalm. Another lie of yours:

The only 'favoritism' I give Mia normally is wrath, a Rhys support, and keeping her on-level with my other units if possible.

Where are Dusts in your favoritism here?

The dusts are an optional thing that Mia can do that Zihark cannot. And before you ask, Mia's maximum possible magic is ~23 (12 base at 20/20, +4 dusts, +3 band +4 supports). Zihark's is a whopping... 15. (7 20/20, +4 dusts, +3 band, +1 Brom support). Combined with the 10 MT from the SS and Zihark may very well have to worry about not KOing things like the Sniper in 17-1 AT HIS MAXIMUM LEVEL (He has 31 HP and 9 RES which means Zihark deals 16 damage a hit just BARELY squeaking in at 32. Thank God for that Brom support). If 2 STR is a huge enough concern to potentially shelve Mia, than an 8 MT difference should shut Zihark out of the SS forever.

And before you say 'why doesn't Tanith get it then', I crunched the numbers. Tanith at 20/20 has 13-14 MAG. +4 from the dusts, +2 from a Marcia/Reyson B, and only +1 from the band. Puts her in at 21. What was that you said?

2-3 strength is quite a significant difference.

Indeed. Especially when, unlike with Steel/silver swords, you can't forge the SS.

Why do you keep doing this? Why do you not just own up to the fact you give Mia all the things in order for that to even work? Why is she using the SS to begin with when Tanith is going to use it just fine without all the resources?

Without 'all those resources' it's only real use is killing fliers. Tanith has the option, at least, of forged javelins which work out much better for her on the whole unless she manages to fight only enemies weak to wind.

Why is Mia the "best" option for that weapon when she's clearly not?

Because she has the highest potential magic. Duh. That helps out a lot when Mia has to fight things the SS isn't effective against.

Say like, bridatass' screens, Mia has 8 mag.

PEMN.

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

You all are overreacting. Stefan master race.

Oh, and OP, your Mia is the godliest Mia to ever be known.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Duck

[PKL]

You act like Vantage combos are anything special. Why should I bother with Vantage shit Mia when I can just kill stuff with better units...at 1-2 range.

[Brendor]

Oh, and OP, your Mia is the godliest Mia to ever be known.

Didn't even use any forges or stat boosting items

But Ike is still God

[Redwall]

You all are overreacting.

Mia vs. Zihark discussions are serious business. If anything, people are underreacting.

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

Mia vs. Zihark discussions are serious business. If anything, people are underreacting.

That's why you Stefan.

[Shadow Mir]

WRT Purge: I don't know why you brought that up when there's all of ONE purge in the game, and it doesn't come until chapter 25.

As for Wrath/Vantage: That's assuming Nephenee's being used. What if she isn't?

You all are overreacting. Stefan master race.

Oh, and OP, your Mia is the godliest Mia to ever be known.

That's why you Stefan.

Stefan's cool and all, but having shit luck is totally NOT cool.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Brendor]

As for Wrath/Vantage: That's assuming Nephenee's being used. What if she isn't?

Then don't give her vantage?

I've been using her every chapter since 11 so for me it's useful