A "Radical" Idea to counter lowmanning.

[Airship Canon]

Ok, so I was overlooking a couple other SRPGs, and have noted some where low-manning is more suicidal than anything else.

The example I'll be using here is Muv Luv Faraway Dawn for a couple reasons, but I'm sure there's other examples.

Lowmanning: The Pokemon Problem.

Basically, the issue is that if you pour all of your resources- mostly EXP, into a select couple units, they snowball out of control and completely overwhelm the enemy. Spreading out your EXP to try to create a more balanced force is more detrimental than anything else. This creates the big problem that keeps getting stared at in Awakening: 1 god unit who routs maps with impunity. This is the same issue seen in Pokemon, where a Solo Challenge is less a challenge and more a way to completely dominate the game. Doing stupid things like Torchic Solo in Gen 3 was a good way to beat Pokemon, not a good challenge.

The solution: More is Better.

The counter to Lowmanning is creating a scenario where having more units is beneficial. MLFAD did a good job at this: Deploying into a mission with less than the deployment cap basically accomplishes one thing: Weakening you. (Alright, you can deploy with only TSFs on some missions so you can get more T-90s and SPAAGs for the next, but undercutting your TSFs only left you weaker as a fighting unit as a whole, and it made the permadeath of Eishis a serious problem- leading to much save scumming.) How does it do this:

1. Enemy Threat. A single unit cannot hold back the enemy. Try as you might, you will fail. Now, Awakening's Apotheosis does this well enough, outside of the MAtt5TER method [which since there's a full team integratable version (the MaMU variant) even that can be greatly improved by increasing the amount of units you deploy] but the catch to Apoth is that it's purely a postgame thing. Attempting to emulate this level of enemy threat will not exactly work in main game, since leveling exists. The closest thing to it is Lunatic+ mode, but that has its own problems and still is bested by lowmanning.

2. Global EXP Gain. Here's the kicker solution. Instead of a unit gaining EXP for the actions it performs, and leveling mid battle, units in FAD gain EXP globally to all units deployed in the post battle. And here's the real trick. Reducing the number of units used reduces the total amount of EXP gained! If you deployed 8 units and each got 90 EXP [720 Total] after battle, and then redid the mission with 2 units, they'd still only get 90 EXP [180 Total]! So with that said, the number of units deployed should be as high as possible to maximize total EXP gains! Now the obvious problem here is what's seen in Pokemon Gen 6: You wind up far overleveled. Solution: Stronger foes on a harsher curve. The game knows how much EXP you'll be gaining, and can readily increase enemy strength to match. Pokemon failed to do that, but the solution was really sound.

Obviously since EXP is being delivered to units deployed, this would enforce using a solid team, but one that's at least at what the deploy limit is. And then to avoid hiding units in the corners and using Jegans/etc, a basic idea would be to keep the EXP gained formulae based on the combatants. This would encourage using weaker units for kills/actions to increase the EXP pool slightly.

[The other thing that MLFAD did that other SRPGs that use Global EXP don't was individual movement/actions. A TSF had its own AP, not a global pool. This wouldn't be an issue for Fire Emblem, since AP isn't a thing in FE.]

[SRC]

The higher difficulties of FE11/12 are great in forcing lots of units to build on your Apotheosis example. Certainly, there were still methods to cheese through the game such as by warpskipping, but in most cases you have too much damage to soak up and dish out to blaze through the game with a couple powerful units. Unfortunately, Awakening kind of faultered in this regard by accidentally making MY UNIT virtually invincible 95% of even Lunatic.

I actually thought IS nailed it with the gen V experience formula. Giving a good exp boost for lower leveled Pokemon actually made it beneficial for the first time to use more than 1 or 2 of them on your team! Applying the same concept to Fire Emblem would be interesting to see.

I think the experience sharing idea is the most boring way to deal with the problem. Even if you balance out the exp gain with the enemy difficulty, I feel it cheapens "Magikarp" or "Est" type units. You get the payoff without any effort except the unit slot. Personal example: In Pokemon X, I had Bagon warm the bench for the majority of the game just to have Salamance for the endgame. Sure, I had to "pay" a unit slot for all of those level ups, but I don't actually put any effort in doing so.

Edited December 10, 2013 by SRC

[dondon151]

I actually thought IS nailed it with the gen V experience formula. Giving a good exp boost for lower leveled Pokemon actually made it beneficial for the first time to use more than 1 or 2 of them on your team! Applying the same concept to Fire Emblem would be interesting to see.

except people still solo the game in gen 5, revamped EXP formula or not (you probably meant gamefreak rather than IS). it was a step in the right direction, but it didn't come close to solving the problem.

in fire emblem, you just really need to be unable to make units defensively invincible in order to discourage low-manning. FE11 did this fairly well if you ignore general wolf/sedgar and FE12 did it even better if you ignore a def-blessed avatar. low defense growths, low defense caps, enemy forges, high weapon hit, and conservative support bonuses are all key factors. FE5 also deserves a mention because every map had a hard floor for unit deployment.

in pokemon, well, offense is defense, so there really isn't much choice other than to make the EXP dropoff much steeper when player pokemon outlevel opponent pokemon.

Edited December 10, 2013 by dondon151

[General Banzai]

FE13 Luna+ is better to use a somewhat larger team than a simple MU solo.

Like not full unit cap but you can't just trainroll through with MU

Edited December 10, 2013 by General Banzai

[SRC]

except people still solo the game in gen 5, revamped EXP formula or not (you probably meant gamefreak rather than IS). it was a step in the right direction, but it didn't come close to solving the problem.

in fire emblem, you just really need to be unable to make units defensively invincible in order to discourage low-manning. FE11 did this fairly well if you ignore general wolf/sedgar and FE12 did it even better if you ignore a def-blessed avatar. low defense growths, low defense caps, enemy forges, high weapon hit, and conservative support bonuses are all key factors. FE5 also deserves a mention because every map had a hard floor for unit deployment.

in pokemon, well, offense is defense, so there really isn't much choice other than to make the EXP dropoff much steeper when player pokemon outlevel opponent pokemon.

I think you have to give gen 5 a little more credit than that. At least solo runs in gen 5 are more of a self-imposed handicap by players. Meanwhile, doing a solo/having a very small team for most other Pokemon games and for Awakening actually makes the games EASIER.

[Refa]

Suikoden has the best EXP formula ever. Basically it's an incredibly steep curve, so it's super duper easy to catch up underleveled units, but EXP gain after a certain threshhold is incredibly slow.

[Baldrick]

It could stand to be steeper. An EXP system where you do not gain experience for engaging lower-levelled enemies would kill low-manning as a viable tactic entirely.

In the sense that using less units would not make the game easier.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Baldrick

[X-Naut]

Suikoden has the best EXP formula ever. Basically it's an incredibly steep curve, so it's super duper easy to catch up underleveled units, but EXP gain after a certain threshhold is incredibly slow.

That's what I was thinking.

Another idea I thought of is to bring back Rating from Awakening, have it weighted based on stat value (HP, Luck, and useless Str/Mag = 1, Skill = 1.5, rest = 2), and have it factor into EXP gain. Not as much as level, but when you're a few levels higher even a small push is going to tank your gains. At the same time it offers a little more help for RNG screwed and underleveled units.

[Rehab]

I was going to chip in that Tactics Ogre: Let us Cling Together (psp, dunno about original snes) has a system where the classes that get deployed in a battle all get experience, and get it regardless of their kills (I think?) (each class gets some more exp for each unit of their class deployed), which I thought was neat,

but I haven't actually played past, like, early midgame, so I don't know to what extent it's actually a balanced experience. I think it might be neat to see a FE entry (or hack) like that, just for laughs, though it might have to also switch up the class+character availability structure some to get the intended effect (given Tactics Ogre lets you hire generic characters of a bunch of different classes from very early on)

Edited December 10, 2013 by Rehab

[Hawk King]

Less exp gain in general combined with a steeper curve as already mentioned would work pretty well.

And as dondon said, high DEF makes units near invincible. Removing tinking would be a good idea, so no matter what an attack would do at least 1 damage. I believe FE 4 did this.

[Jotari]

Less exp gain in general combined with a steeper curve as already mentioned would work pretty well.

And as dondon said, high DEF makes units near invincible. Removing tinking would be a good idea, so no matter what an attack would do at least 1 damage. I believe FE 4 did this.

I think Fe2 had that too. I remember seeing a video where a mage tanked a load of 1HP hits purely because it had a shield, which then healed all the accumulated minor damage each turn.

[dondon151]

I think you have to give gen 5 a little more credit than that. At least solo runs in gen 5 are more of a self-imposed handicap by players. Meanwhile, doing a solo/having a very small team for most other Pokemon games and for Awakening actually makes the games EASIER.

last i checked, B/W speedruns were all solos, B2/W2 gave you a lucky egg, and X/Y is probably also solo-able.

[PKL]

Gen 6 is so easy. The rival even sucks. I think a solo is extremely doable and probably easy still.

[General Horace]

gen 6 also has the lucario thats given to you at a pretty high level, you might as well use that since it doesn't take any longer to get

but really as far as fe is concerned, a much higher exp curve would solve some problems, but if they continue to make units like Seth and MU's and stuff, it would be irrelevant

[PKL]

gen 6 also has the lucario thats given to you at a pretty high level, you might as well use that since it doesn't take any longer to get

but really as far as fe is concerned, a much higher exp curve would solve some problems, but if they continue to make units like Seth and MU's and stuff, it would be irrelevant

Yeah, lol the Lucario is OP.

I don't think the exp is the issue. I think DS FE got it right when it comes to low-manning. Just look at your run, youre using all the deployment slots and they're all contributing.

[Irysa]

Even just getting a Riolu from Floccsey in BW2 could wreck the game once it evolved.

Come to think of it, I had like 4 friendship mons on my team in BW2, Azumarill, Lucario, Umbreon and Crobat.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Irysa

[Refa]

It could stand to be steeper. An EXP system where you do not gain experience for engaging lower-levelled enemies would kill low-manning as a viable tactic entirely.

In the sense that using less units would not make the game easier.

In Suikoden you get like 5EXP for killing low level enemies. Out of 1,000. And by low level enemies I mean if the EXP threshhold of sorts for the area is like level 35, once you hit that level you get 5EXP for every kill (minus boss fights).

EDIT Actually, I'm not even sure what my point was, there. Oh well.

gen 6 also has the lucario thats given to you at a pretty high level, you might as well use that since it doesn't take any longer to get

but really as far as fe is concerned, a much higher exp curve would solve some problems, but if they continue to make units like Seth and MU's and stuff, it would be irrelevant

Wouldn't MU suck if he couldn't get EXP super quickly? I mean he is worse than Frederick in 0% growths, what a total looser.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Refa

[SRC]

last i checked, B/W speedruns were all solos, B2/W2 gave you a lucky egg, and X/Y is probably also solo-able.

I don't think there is much that can be done that can stop particularly savvy players from soloing. Using one Pokemon can certainly cut playtime, but I doubt that it will actually make the game easier for most players. However, I have to agree the lucky egg was quite a bit contradictory in what the exp formula was shooting for.

X/Y is fairly easy, so I'm sure it will be solo'd all over the place, haha.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Even without Lucario theres a lot of hilarious stuff in X Y and BW2

BW2 Magnemite and XY "Level 32 Petal Dance" Saur are hilariously broken

[Baldrick]

EDIT Actually, I'm not even sure what my point was, there. Oh well.

Probably that exp gains that low are practically the same as no exp gain whatsoever. You could grind but that'd take so long it'd defeat the purpose.

[MacLovin]

Even without Lucario theres a lot of hilarious stuff in X Y and BW2

BW2 Magnemite and XY "Level 32 Petal Dance" Saur are hilariously broken

d/p/ppt Starly

[arvilino]

in fire emblem, you just really need to be unable to make units defensively invincible in order to discourage low-manning. FE11 did this fairly well if you ignore general wolf/sedgar and FE12 did it even better if you ignore a def-blessed avatar. low defense growths, low defense caps, enemy forges, high weapon hit, and conservative support bonuses are all key factors. FE5 also deserves a mention because every map had a hard floor for unit deployment.

Maybe if they turned the defense stat into a fixed value for characters(or classes and another for their promotions). it would mean IS would have a clear idea of what max/min defenses the player will have each chapter, if all Paladins and Armoured Knights had 15 Defense the player should be unable to low man early chapters if enemies had ~25 ATK at that point(provided the enemies hit rate is high enough). I'd imagine it'd make it easier for IS to create less breakable challenging chapters throughout the whole game.

[Tamanoir]

I was going to chip in that Tactics Ogre: Let us Cling Together (psp, dunno about original snes) has a system where the classes that get deployed in a battle all get experience, and get it regardless of their kills (I think?) (each class gets some more exp for each unit of their class deployed), which I thought was neat,

but I haven't actually played past, like, early midgame, so I don't know to what extent it's actually a balanced experience. I think it might be neat to see a FE entry (or hack) like that, just for laughs, though it might have to also switch up the class+character availability structure some to get the intended effect (given Tactics Ogre lets you hire generic characters of a bunch of different classes from very early on)

Tactics Ogre was what I tought about.

Except this game also give you more EXP if you deploy them early. It mitigate the exp gain between low and high level so catching up is pretty easy.

It also scale your level on the ennemy level and scale the equipment as well.

It have some issues (notably Archers and Canopus being broken. Canopus should be able to solo almost the entire game)

Edited December 17, 2013 by Edea the Brave

[Aurath8]

The problem with XY's EXP Share was that it was optional. The game's level curve was designed for people who didn't use the EXP share, but did use Pokemon-Amie. If Global exp is mandatory then, FE shouldn't have too many problems with it. Global EXP also means bad characters, or units who just get little exp like clerics and archers, can actually keep up with the rest of the team. Now if IS would also make a decent archer in the first place...

[NinjaMonkey]

2. Global EXP Gain. Here's the kicker solution. Instead of a unit gaining EXP for the actions it performs, and leveling mid battle, units in FAD gain EXP globally to all units deployed in the post battle. And here's the real trick. Reducing the number of units used reduces the total amount of EXP gained! If you deployed 8 units and each got 90 EXP [720 Total] after battle, and then redid the mission with 2 units, they'd still only get 90 EXP [180 Total]!

So if I complete a chapter of SS by only using Seth he gets Z amount of EXP, but if I deploy other units, Seth still gets Z amount of EXP anyway... So what's the point of deploying anybody else, then?

Edited December 22, 2013 by NinjaMonkey