Trying to Decide on Best Pairings in Terms of Story, But...

[FionordeQuester]

Avatar is one of the only people who doesn't have a "Can you please marry me even though I'm not as good as Chrom?" sentence though, right?

[Skynstein]

Avatar is one of the only people who doesn't have a "Can you please marry me even though I'm not as good as Chrom?" sentence though, right?

If you speak of story then marry the Avatar to Lucina since they get a special scene before Chapter 22 if they're married.

If you believe Cordelia never gets over Chrom despite me providing substantial evidence, then go with Frederick since it's the support in which she takes the longest to realize Chrom won't love her.

[Sunwoo]

Funny to see you say that when Ana's interpretation is the most faithful to the text. The people who believe Cordelia never gets over Chrom in her supports are just wanting to see something that doesn't exist at all.

Funny thing about interpretation ... how do you KNOW that what Ana interprets is most faithful to the text? Does she work at IS? Do you? The thing is, the interpretation with Cordelia sometimes feel like it can go either way.

Personally, I don't bother much with her to think hard about whether she still holds feelings for Chrom after she's married or not, or if she's really over Chrom when she marries. But the laziness in not changing her event tile conversations or level up conversations sometimes makes you feel that she's not completely over him.

Unless you can actually prove that Ana's interpretation of Cordelia's supports is actually more faithful to the text, I'm going to have to call you out on your arrogance.

From her S support with Frederick:

"I know that Chrom will never love me. ...I think I've always known it. And frankly, I've grown weary of unrequited love. Just the thought of giving it up is like a weight falling from my shoulders. Oh, Frederick, thank you for making me face reality at last! If I promise to love only you, will you make me the happiest woman in the world?"

She still has the special event tiles with Chrom, as well as the level up quotes, supports in which she's seeking Chrom's love, but really, would they bother doing two sets of supports for what's essentially a secondary character? I think not.

I actually think her supports with Frederick and Lon'qu up to A are great because, when you erase their S support, the other supports have an entire different meaning. This was skillful writing IMO.

Her Frederick support has been interpreted by others as her "settling" for Frederick. Who's in the right? I really don't know or care, but neither do I presume to be right just because I'm right. Her Chrom conversation only takes place if she's unmarried, but as I pointed out before the laziness of not changing certain OTHER event tile or level up conversations sometimes make it feel as if she's not completely over. Both sides of the Cordelia debate have enough evidence to point it out. You can't just say "oh but she's a minor character they wouldn't change it yadda yadda" just to support your argument. It's in the game. It's fair game.

Not to mention, soc is right that Ana is biased. Cordelia and Frederick are her favorite characters. Heck, I stick Miriel with Henry when I'm not marrying either one of them to my avatar because they're my favorite 1st generation characters and I think they go well together. But there is such a thing as recognizing that you are biased, and I don't go mooning over Henry/Miriel or any other pairing like I'm so unbiased and objective.

[FionordeQuester]

Alright guys, please don't get too heated over things. I respect all of your opinions, so I'd hate to see this thread become one of conflict...that said...

If you speak of story then marry the Avatar to Lucina since they get a special scene before Chapter 22 if they're married.

Really now? I'm not seeing it. I'm just seeing the scene where Lucina tries to kill the Avatar.

[Skynstein]

Funny thing about interpretation ... how do you KNOW that what Ana interprets is most faithful to the text? Does she work at IS? Do you? The thing is, the interpretation with Cordelia sometimes feel like it can go either way.

Personally, I don't bother much with her to think hard about whether she still holds feelings for Chrom after she's married or not, or if she's really over Chrom when she marries. But the laziness in not changing her event tile conversations or level up conversations sometimes makes you feel that she's not completely over him.

Unless you can actually prove that Ana's interpretation of Cordelia's supports is actually more faithful to the text, I'm going to have to call you out on your arrogance.

I don't have to prove anything because it's obvious. It's there. Read the text again. If you're using elements other than the text between Cordelia and Frederick to interpret her supports, fine, but they really don't have much strength when they're generic conversations that happen irrespective of Cordelia being married or not.

They could be used if you think Cordelia is a lying bitch, but I haven't found this out to be the case, so I don't give them much weight...

Her Frederick support has been interpreted by others as her "settling" for Frederick. Who's in the right? I really don't know or care, but neither do I presume to be right just because I'm right. Her Chrom conversation only takes place if she's unmarried, but as I pointed out before the laziness of not changing certain OTHER event tile or level up conversations sometimes make it feel as if she's not completely over. Both sides of the Cordelia debate have enough evidence to point it out. You can't just say "oh but she's a minor character they wouldn't change it yadda yadda" just to support your argument. It's in the game. It's fair game.

Not to mention, soc is right that Ana is biased. Cordelia and Frederick are her favorite characters. Heck, I stick Miriel with Henry when I'm not marrying either one of them to my avatar because they're my favorite 1st generation characters and I think they go well together. But there is such a thing as recognizing that you are biased, and I don't go mooning over Henry/Miriel or any other pairing like I'm so unbiased and objective.

I'm perfectly fine with using developer laziness as argument because Cordelia is not the only victim of this. Cherche babbles stuff about Minerva in her level ups. Thing is, she can be reclassed to something other than wyvern knight and she still says something about Minerva. Did Minerva magically turn into a griffon? That's silly.

Also, Cordelia doesn't reference Chrom in her level ups and Barrack tiles. She always says "he" or "him". Since we're plot-aware we know that it's for Chrom, but when she marries someone it could as well mean it's about her husband.

Finally, your argument essentially boils down to "they're biased so it's wrong". Nice way to discredit an argument, isn't it? I wonder how you'd be able to debate politics with such a mindset. [/sarcasm] And you call me arrogant, lol.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Malebolganone

[Sunwoo]

I don't have to prove anything because it's obvious. It's there. Read the text again. If you're using elements other than the text between Cordelia and Frederick to interpret her supports, fine, but they really don't have much strength when they're generic conversations that happen irrespective of Cordelia being married or not.

If there are a significant number of people who disagree with you and think that Cordelia's supports are not obvious, then obviously it's not obvious. Because everyone else is wrong except everyone who agrees with you, right? I really don't care what opinion you or anyone else have with Cordelia's supports. But the way you're tossing around words like "obvious" and "more faithful" when you really don't have any business of saying so is what I am arguing against.

I'm perfectly fine with using developer laziness as argument because Cordelia is not the only victim of this. Cherche babbles stuff about Minerva in her level ups. Thing is, she can be reclassed to something other than wyvern knight and she still says something about Minerva. Did Minerva magically turn into a griffon? That's silly.

Cordelia may not be the only victim of this, but fawning over Chrom in the barracks when she talks to him when she's already married and over him is very jarring. (And before you bring up Tharja, I'm in the same boat about her. Can't stand her, as a matter of fact.) Cherche talking about Minerva when Minerva isn't part of her reclass may seem silly, yes, but it's harder to imagine she's just "over him" when dialogue laziness keeps hitting you in the face.

Also, Cordelia doesn't reference Chrom in her level ups and Barrack tiles. She always says "he" or "him". Since we're plot-aware we know that it's for Chrom, but when she marries someone it could as well mean it's about her husband.

"I would do all this and more to be with him" makes me raise my eyebrows a little bit, though, in a post-married context. You ARE with him, Cordelia.

Finally, your argument essentially boils down to "they're biased so it's wrong". Nice way to discredit an argument, isn't it? I wonder how you'd be able to debate politics with such a mindset. [/sarcasm] And you call me arrogant, lol.

My argument boils down to "you do not work for IS, therefore, you cannot throw around weighty words like you are the authority of knowing the intended meaning of Cordelia's words". The only person discrediting an argument is you, by COMPLETELY missing my point in the first place, and now by attacking my person by saying "I wonder how you'd be able to debate politics with such a mindset". And face it. You ARE biased towards Cordelia. Bias isn't a bad thing in itself. But you have to realize that everyone in this world is biased, one way or another, and denying it when it's clear it has some influence in your opinion does not make you any more endearing.

[eclipse]

KEEP IT CIVIL. If I have to say this a second time, I close the thread and hand out warnings.

[Anacybele]

...Wow. Just wow. Somehow even if I'm not PRESENT I wind up involved in silly arguments.

But anyway, just to clarify, I NEVER intended to say my interpretation was the correct one. It's simply how I interpret Frederick and Cordelia's S support, whether or not others agree with it, and that's all.

I agree, however, that Cordelia's barracks and event tile dialogues not changing after she's married is quite lazy and dumb.

EDIT: Oh, also, about me being "biased." Fun fact: I didn't start favoring Cordelia unil well after I saw her support with Frederick and liked their pairing. So me being biased because of favoritism for characters here is impossible. And if I really wanted to be biased, I'd have suggested all the pairings I ship, which I didn't.

Oh, and my two favorite characters in the game are actually Frederick and STAHL, not Frederick and Cordelia. So there.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Anacybele

[FionordeQuester]

Honestly Anycybele, I agree with Sanguyl on this in that some pairings with Cordelia make a lot more sense than others. Yet, if she still clings to Chrom with ALL her married partners in her event tiles, we have to discount those as well.

That said though, I honestly don't care THAT much as long as we keep having fun! If you guys have something to work out, could you please do it via PM? For what it's worth, I think both sides said hurtful things.

Edited January 11, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[Anacybele]

Of course some Cordelia pairings make more sense than others. I wasn't ever denying that. xP

[HK Motendra]

AvatarXSay'Ri/Tiki

As for Avatar and Say'Ri...eh, why not? She's the only one who doesn't have an option other than him, and just going by their S Support, it seems pretty sweet!

EDIT: Or maybe Tiki? Maybe give her a child so that she doesn't spend those long years alone?

I agree with this one. Moreso with Tiki actually, given that she's surprised that she even HAS a child, along with her actually having a role in Future of Despair. And I like the idea of two opposites joining together, and morgan having both Naga and Grima blood.

I actually did this pairing in my first play through and I can see it happening. Just my 2 cents

[FionordeQuester]

Yeah. The only thing is, you don't think Tiki being thousands of years older than Morgan would make it a bit of an unbalanced relationship, do you?

[HK Motendra]

Yeah. The only thing is, you don't think Tiki being thousands of years older than Morgan would make it a bit of an unbalanced relationship, do you?

I don't understand how age could play a factor in unbalance between mother and child. What kind of unbalance in their relationship do you mean?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Tiki is around 2200+, and I'd hazard a guess that that makes her around 22 biologically, and that's not so awkward.

If you're going to try to find a "canon" pairing for Avatar, I'd say either Tiki or Lucina. I don't think there is a canon pairing, but those are the closest. Not that it matters, of course.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Avatar is one of the only people who doesn't have a "Can you please marry me even though I'm not as good as Chrom?" sentence though, right?

Yes. Chrom is rarely, if at all mentioned in the supports with Avatar. In fact, her supports with Avatar have a lot to do with her survivor's guilt and how where her insecurities came from. (something about her pegasus knight squadron teasing her for her talents) Still boring as all hell though. Doesnt make it any more canon though.

Avatar/Lucina has some story goodies when it comes to that one chapter....

[FionordeQuester]

I don't understand how age could play a factor in unbalance between mother and child. What kind of unbalance in their relationship do you mean?

What I meant was, Tiki has like, 2200 years worth of life experience and wisdom and knowledge and all of that, so there might be kind of a rift in how she sees things compared to how Avatar sees things. Like, he wouldn't really be able to relate to a lot of what she feels, you know? I wasn't talking about any biological rift. Not that I'm saying that that's a sure thing, but I was just wondering what you guys thought about that?

Edited January 11, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[Thor Odinson]

Don't marry off MU problem solved

Had morgan with villager girl in a one night stand or something

Edited January 11, 2014 by Thor Odinson

[HK Motendra]

What I meant was, Tiki has like, 2200 years worth of life experience and wisdom and knowledge and all of that, so there might be kind of a rift in how she sees things compared to how Avatar sees things. Like, he wouldn't really be able to relate to a lot of what she feels, you know? I wasn't talking about any biological rift. Not that I'm saying that that's a sure thing, but I was just wondering what you guys thought about that?

Oh. That honestly never came to mind for me. I'm a terrible husband now. Then again, being a tactician, he probably could figure something out with that brain of his. After all, in their S support, its Tiki who confesses to him, and he himself doubts whether or not he could even allow himself to love her.

“I know that to love another, I must watch the world move past him. But such short years make an eternity worth living.”

From her confession quote I had just assumed that she's already prepared for the blocks they would face, due to the age difference.

[Czar_Yoshi]

What I meant was, Tiki has like, 2200 years worth of life experience and wisdom and knowledge and all of that, so there might be kind of a rift in how she sees things compared to how Avatar sees things. Like, he wouldn't really be able to relate to a lot of what she feels, you know? I wasn't talking about any biological rift. Not that I'm saying that that's a sure thing, but I was just wondering what you guys thought about that?

2200 years of age, but for how much of that was she awake? Probably very little. Now, she has outlived an entire generation of friends, and is pretty sad about that... But viewpoints don't need to be equal in a successful relationship.

[FionordeQuester]

I see...alright then, here's the pairings as they are now!

LissaXLon'Qu

SullyXStahl

MirielXLibra

SumiaXChrom

MaribelleXGaius

PanneXGregor

CordeliaXKellam

NowiXDonnel/Ricken (still dunno there)

OliviaXHenry

ChercheXVirion

TikiXAvatar

So now, Tharja is the only one who still has yet to meet her man! Who do you think it should be?! As far as I can tell, it's a choice between Ricken/Donnel (unlikely, considering they're younger than her, right?), Vaike, and Frederick.

Edited January 13, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[eclipse]

I think Tharja is one of the better people for Donnel's supports, but I'm a weirdo like that.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Tharja:
Surely you must have some reason for helping me.

Donnel:
Gosh, ma'am. That's just how we do things back in my village. If a mage was settin' about to cast a curse, see, we was all duty bound to pitch in. Just like we all help build the barns and mend the fences, and clear the pastures!

Tharja:
Wait. You used to help mages cast curses? Cast curses...on you?!

Donnel:
That's what curses are all about, right? Usin' dark arts fer the greater good? By helping you, I reckon I'm helpin' everyone in the Shepherds. Ain't that right? Gosh, maybe THAT should be my favor! I should ask ya to cast more nice magic!

Tharja:
I don't know who taught you about curses, but that's not how they work.

Donnel:
It ain't?

Tharja:
Gods, it's a wonder your village is still standing...

As long as you don't find that ever so slightly disturbing, Tharja x Donnel is just fine.

[FionordeQuester]

I see, so you're saying Donnel wouldn't be too bad after all. At first, it seemed like, even at the S Support, she considered him more a manslave rather than a partner, but, reading between the lines...yeah, I can imagine her actually loving him...

That said though, how about...FrederickXTharja? Both him and THE VAIKE are the most likely candidates for taking hexes off of their child while still beating up Grima's servants, but, as my mother/father once said, "In any successful relationship, there's really only room for ONE crazy person in the relationship". Not that Frederick himself doesn't have his quirks, but, on the whole, he's still pretty well adjusted compared to some other characters.

Nah, I think THE VAIKE might be better off with some village maiden who's just kinda normal, just kinda sweet, and finds him totally hot or something. What do you guys think?

Edited January 13, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[eclipse]

Vaike with Lissa or no one at all (he's a lot less loony around her).

Frederick is the kind of guy that would drive ME crazy, and not in a good way (and if I'm reading Tharja right, she'd go just as bonkers). If you're looking for justification behind Noire's treatment, then yeah. . .otherwise, I'd stay away from that pairing (if you want stupidly normal, go with Stahl).

[shadowofchaos]

I paired Henry with Tharja the first time I played the game... before I knew about the generic supports.

That fact alone caused me to be sorely disappointed because Henry definitely has the ability to just get rid of the curse completely.