Why do people overrate Hector as a unit?

[Hamicsat]

Hector has great strength and defense, as well as Hand Axe access and the Wolf Beil, which makes him monstrous in the earlygame, especially Chapter 14, and not too shabby later on. His mobility and speed are his major flaws; though you can pump Speedwings into him and give him the Boots, those resources are best used by other units and even with them the Pegasi, Paladins and Wyverns will have 1-2 range utility and good speed with no prior investment. His promotion adds nothing to his repertoire, and the stat bonuses are not nearly enough to compensate for his speed problems.

In efficient play, he's usable, but he won't carry the team by any means. However, most of the people who put Hector on a pedestal are the filthy casuals (like me) who don't mind taking a few extra turns to let the world's manliest man see action.

[dondon151]

You didn't speak about the subject at all, though. Simply made a condescending comment about how we've 'been there, done that'.

use your powers of inference

[eclipse]

I see no constructive arguments regarding this debate, just a comment that it's been done before. If you're going to post, I strongly suggest it be about the topic at hand, and WHY.

(mod out)

I find the Lyn/Florina vs. Hector arguments amusing, because Florina's great at ferrying Hector around (I think Heath can do it to, if I'm reading the numbers right). I'd rather have Hector tank hits and live rather than pray to the RNG that Lyn doesn't eat one of two hits that'll end the chapter the wrong way.

[dondon151]

this is just from the first four pages

Hector is honnestly a crutch character. He starts far better than the others (While Avo is far more imoportant in late game, being able to take hits is a blessing early on). It's promotion is however pretty late, and easily the worst of the three (Wait, he actually GAIN a weakness ? That's even worse than Roy's promo...).
Really usefull early to mid game, far less afterwards.

Eliwood suffers from Canas' syndrome, beacuse his growth and base are far too average. He's still the best lord and gains the most out of promotion (Horse and 1-2 Range access). He can becomes one of the best units of the game, but is too RNG reliant.

He's actually far better on Hector Mode ironically enough.

Lyn... is more of a late bloomer. Her High Avo, and Speed made her really great if you trained her correctly. Bow access and awesome promotion gain made her better. Shze can also become a good Mage killer wiith her good Res.

She may start weaker, but have a whole mode entirely dvoted to makes her grows.

I'd say she's overall the best, because Str issue asides, she do her job (pseudo myrmidon, then horseless Nomad Trooper) really well.

things wrong with this post:

- hector doesn't care about gaining a weakness

- eliwood does not have "far too average" growths and bases; his bases are terrible and his growths are simply not good

- eliwood is not better on hector mode because he has to deal with tougher enemies and later join time

- lyn doesn't really care about having bows

- lyn's res isn't good enough to be a "mage killer" (not that you even need one)

- the concept of "job" in this post is horribly outdated and entirely useless from a practical standpoint

That with the fact that Armads is easily the best of the 3 Prf final weapons make him the best lord to me. Hector hurts people post-promotion, even with his 5 move. Plus Eliwood is just a bitch, and his horse is only good for giving him the aid necessary to be Hector's personal chauffeur.

armads should be wholly irrelevant to this argument (actually, to this entire thread if you consider the title) and hector does about nothing combat-wise post promotion because not only are his combat parameters rather lacking, but he can't get to the combat anyway.

(i don't mean to pick on chococoke here, but there's more than one person in this thread stuck in 2009 mode.)

With A Florina, Sol Katti, and 26 Skl, Lyn is seeing 29 crit against the thing, which is ~50% to crit on at least one attack when doubling. It's not reliable to count on by any means, but she can potentially do more than Hector or Eliwood are ever able to. It's already been mentioned, but Eliwood even faces problems potentially being doubled by the dragon if he's a bit speed screwed. And I haven't done calculations for an average, but I've also experienced Hector missing the dragon. I'd rather get 14 damage than whiff and do nothing...

who. cares.

Anyway...Out of all the things my opinions have changed on over the years, miraculously, Lyn has stayed in my mind as the most useful Lord of the three. Maybe it's the way I play, maybe I favor her and don't even realize it because I've done it for so long, but that's just how it turns out. I do always play LHM, where she'll get to ~8-10 and receive the Energy Drop (Robe goes to Florina), but I think that's justifiable enough (I'll completely agree that Lyn without LHM training is bad). She gets A Florina support for +3 atk and +15 crit, which is justifiable outside of max efficiency because it's super fast (41 turns from nothing to A) and Florina is a good unit who benefits plenty from it as well. And then she has those 45 uses of the Mani Katti which tend to be pretty good at slaying anything, especially those Knights and Cavaliers (this is how I always kill Uhai without relying on 60-70 hit from others).

summary: lyn is good because she gets all the resources without batting an eye. 2009 logic, moving on.

Well, GBAFE game really favors avoid compared to Physical Defense. (Res may allows you to avoid these status staff, so it's more relevant). Def is only usefull early on (and against the dragon only HP and Speed are relevant anyway).

The 2 RNG method, Poison weapons and generally weak ennemies (even against Nino, they will rarely have more than 60 displayed hit at base), makes Defense increasingly irrelevant. People makes lot of fun about luck, but Def is without a doubt the worst stats in GBA FE. That's why I'm telling for years.

About Lyn. Mani Kati is the best Lord's starting weapons hands down : light, strong, accurate and with a Crit Bonus. Wolf Beil only have Str on its side.

no, no, no, this only has a hint of truth if you turtle like a squirtle, and the mani katti comparison means nothing in a vacuum. (it's something you'd say in 2009, though.)

Guy actually has a better speed growth than her. That coupled with the fact that he can promote much earlier than her make his offense very comparable to hers.

guy blows. lyn kills enemy types with the mani katti (which is really all that she's good for); guy can't kill anything at all.

I'll agree that Lyn is not the only candidate for the Ring by any means, but in my experience, Florina only wants it if Lyn is not in play (and therefore there is no support between the two) anyway, because she should have enough power with Lances, natural Str, and the support, and there's no way Sain needs it. Kent, though, is a fair choice, and maybe also Erk. However, the choices are so limited I really don't believe it can be ruled out for her, which is why I always bring it up.

florina always wants the energy ring. she has 5 base str. she flies around and ORKOs stuff with javelins. the person who used the "x only wants resource if y is not in play" the most is smash fanatic, a relic from 2009.

Another unit being better than Lyn doesn't make her worse than Hector.

What is this "niche" Hector fills? Bulk? Because Oswin and Marcus have that (and better), and I already went on about how powerful avoid is in this game.

this concept of "niche" is outdated and entirely useless from a practical standpoint. the evidence is here in your post where you use this concept to make an unfair and spurious comparison. whatever "niche" that hector fills is unimportant because you have to use him.

Well, outside of Florna (And maybe Nino...), Con is not so much of a Problem. Basically Irrelevant for Rebecca, slightly more important for Lyn, but at worst you could still use a body ring (And Lyn can also uses Bow. While hard to do, maxing her Bow Rank is actually a good idea).

Legault is probably the best Avo Tank, though not that great as a fighter.

pretty much everything in this post was taken out of a time machine and is wrong.

In the midgame, yes, where your own units will be massively overleveled compared to the enemies (who wield impossibly shitty weapons to top it off).

Not so much later on.

Let's crunch some numbers, shall we?

Let's take a Lv20 Lyn and compare her to a bunch of HHM Chapter 24 (Linus) enemies.

On average, Lyn will have 20 speed and 15.45 luck at Lv20. Let's make that 15 luck so we get a nice round number: 55 Avo.

For reference, she will also have roughly 29 HP (29.3) and 6 defense (5.8).

admirable effort, but the only place where you'll find these sorts of calculations being used seriously are debate archives from 2009.

tl;dr thanks a lot, mods, for wasting my time. i shouldn't have to spend time collecting evidence that's in plain sight to defend myself against accusations that i'm spamming. here is unequivocal proof that my one-liner is an accurate appraisal of this thread. learn to use your powers of inference and please don't do this again.

Edited February 8, 2014 by dondon151

[Florete]

who. cares.

Exactly what I asked...in the exact post you quoted.

summary: lyn is good because she gets all the resources without batting an eye. 2009 logic, moving on.

Wait a minute.

Energy Ring: Only available to a select few amount of units, only actually useful on even fewer of them.

Florina support: She's the only unit who can actually get it in a reasonable amount of time.

Mani Katti: She is literally the only unit who can use it. And it comes in her inventory. And it's completely free.

the person who used the "x only wants resource if y is not in play" the most is smash fanatic, a relic from 2009.

What an amazingly useless statement. Smash said something the most (not even the only one), therefore...?

whatever "niche" that hector fills is unimportant because you have to use him.

The only thing you "have" to use Hector to do is seize, and last I checked, that's not a trait people consider that makes one unit better than another.

dondon is failing to read posts in their entirety, exaggerating issues, and making pointless statements? Smells like 2009 in here!

tl;dr thanks a lot, mods, for wasting my time. i shouldn't have to spend time collecting evidence that's in plain sight to defend myself against accusations that i'm spamming. here is unequivocal proof that my one-liner is an accurate appraisal of this thread. learn to use your powers of inference and please don't do this again.

"Wasting your time?" You could have just, you know, not posted. We didn't force you to "defend yourself." Were you warned? I don't see it in your history.

dondon, you're the one who needs to learn something here: how to have some humility. You have this tendency to never accept the possibility that you might be wrong. As good as you are at not being wrong, it's given you this extremely elitist attitude that took what was actually a pretty calm discussion and made it, well, this, just because you felt the need to assert your dominance and make a snarky post (and yes, if the above post is what your original post meant, "asserting your dominance" is exactly what you were doing), then attempt to justify it. It's no wonder the rest of the fandom thinks we're elitist when it's a bunch of you they're getting.

tl;dr learn how to not post. Here, I'll teach you. First lesson: don't respond to this post. After all, you've said what you wanted to say, right (don't worry about answering that. If you don't respond, I'll assume the answer to be "yes")?

You failed. Oh well. I'm not going to bother continuing to argue with someone who thinks elitism on your level is the least bit justified.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Red Fox of Fire

[Belf]

"Wasting your time?" You could have just, you know, not posted. We didn't force you to "defend yourself." Were you warned? I don't see it in your history.

dondon, you're the one who needs to learn something here: how to have some humility. You have this tendency to never accept the possibility that you might be wrong. As good as you are at not being wrong, it's given you this extremely elitist attitude that took what was actually a pretty calm discussion and made it, well, this, just because you felt the need to assert your dominance and make a snarky post (and yes, if the above post is what your original post meant, "asserting your dominance" is exactly what you were doing), then attempt to justify it. It's no wonder the rest of the fandom thinks we're elitist when it's a bunch of you they're getting.

Couldn't have said it any better. Red Fox is spot on.

[eclipse]

Wait a minute.

Energy Ring: Only available to a select few amount of units, only actually useful on even fewer of them.

Florina support: She's the only unit who can actually get it in a reasonable amount of time.

Mani Katti: She is literally the only unit who can use it. And it comes in her inventory. And it's completely free.

Energy Ring: IIRC, the only people who'd realistically want this are Florina/Lyn/Kent (Wil/Rath/Matthew/Erk/Serra if you're in a draft or something).

Florina's support: I think she needs one turn next to Lyn to trigger C. Most supports are pretty slow (Pent/Louise don't count, Hector/Eliwood takes three turns, and after that is ten turns for Isadora/Harken), so I usually don't factor them into anything unless I'm going for something gimmicky.

Mani Katti: Hell, not even MERLINUS wants it (it takes up room and all), and it has no monetary value (unlike Hector's Wolf Beil, which can be sold for a not-shabby amount). I'd say that this one's uncontested, and should count solely towards Lyn's benefit, even if having WTD against lances sucks.

I think the Lyn/Hector arguments are interesting, no matter how "old" they seem.

[dondon151]

dondon, you're the one who needs to learn something here: how to have some humility. You have this tendency to never accept the possibility that you might be wrong. As good as you are at not being wrong, it's given you this extremely elitist attitude that took what was actually a pretty calm discussion and made it, well, this, just because you felt the need to assert your dominance and make a snarky post (and yes, if the above post is what your original post meant, "asserting your dominance" is exactly what you were doing), then attempt to justify it. It's no wonder the rest of the fandom thinks we're elitist when it's a bunch of you they're getting.

i go about my daily life well aware of the possibility that i may be wrong about many things, but fire emblem is one of the things that i am good at, so whatever perceived elitism that i display is fully justified. with respect to the events in this thread, this elitism is unimportant. i correctly identified that people were using old-fashioned rhetoric to support poor arguments that contradicted conclusions already borne out over previous discussions. there was no secret motive of asserting dominance behind the comment that your armchair psychoanalysis is trying to suggest. the comment was made in good humor until you decided to call me out on not being substantial enough.

well, look. you got what you wanted. try to not call the kettle black. to make it clear, i have nothing to apologize for, and i am not guilty of lacking humility.

Edited February 8, 2014 by dondon151

[Dksoulstice]

The reason I rank Hector so highly is because he's a great unit.

Place Hector in front with a Hand Axe, and he will kill everything. And he's durable enough to take plenty of hits.

[Narga_Rocks]

i go about my daily life well aware of the possibility that i may be wrong about many things, but fire emblem is one of the things that i am good at, so whatever perceived elitism that i display is fully justified. with respect to the events in this thread, this elitism is unimportant. i correctly identified that people were using old-fashioned rhetoric to support poor arguments that contradicted conclusions already borne out over previous discussions. there was no secret motive of asserting dominance behind the comment that your armchair psychoanalysis is trying to suggest. the comment was made in good humor until you decided to call me out on not being substantial enough.

well, look. you got what you wanted. try to not call the kettle black. to make it clear, i have nothing to apologize for, and i am not guilty of lacking humility.

So, snarky one-line spam posts that only you can read into all that stuff you claim it meant aren't something to apologize for? And if we went ahead and warned you the next time you spammed up a thread trying to make everyone feel bad then I suppose we'd be wrong in that case?

Edited February 8, 2014 by Narga_Rocks

[chococoke]

armads should be wholly irrelevant to this argument (actually, to this entire thread if you consider the title) and hector does about nothing combat-wise post promotion because not only are his combat parameters rather lacking, but he can't get to the combat anyway.

(i don't mean to pick on chococoke here, but there's more than one person in this thread stuck in 2009 mode.)

Hector has an entire chapter immediately after he promotes that is little more than glorified training for him. After that he can put a decent hurting on the legion of generals in Ch. 31 (especially if the Wolf Beil was obtained in the previous chapter.) He definitely has trouble catching up in Ch. 32, but 32x is a small chapter (and he has WTA against essentially the whole map.) The final chapter is also decently small, and it's easy to position Hector in front of Darin's room. He matches up very favorably against

Sure, his combat is limited post-promotion and his move sucks. But I'd argue it's certainly more than "about nothing." Also, the Armads comparison was me trying to argue Hector > Lyn. I regret using the term niche, but that was more of me trying to say that Lyn was replaceable and that this was a point against her.

[dondon151]

So, snarky one-line spam posts that only you can read into all that stuff you claim it meant aren't something to apologize for? And if we went ahead and warned you the next time you spammed up a thread trying to make everyone feel bad then I suppose we'd be wrong in that case?

of course you'd be wrong in that case. it has meaningful insight (i.e., not spam) and it merely expresses disagreement (i.e., not "trying to make everyone feel bad").

Hector has an entire chapter immediately after he promotes that is little more than glorified training for him. After that he can put a decent hurting on the legion of generals in Ch. 31 (especially if the Wolf Beil was obtained in the previous chapter.) He definitely has trouble catching up in Ch. 32, but 32x is a small chapter (and he has WTA against essentially the whole map.) The final chapter is also decently small, and it's easy to position Hector in front of Darin's room. He matches up very favorably against

Sure, his combat is limited post-promotion and his move sucks. But I'd argue it's certainly more than "about nothing." Also, the Armads comparison was me trying to argue Hector > Lyn. I regret using the term niche, but that was more of me trying to say that Lyn was replaceable and that this was a point against her.

hector gets almost nothing at all from chapter 30. the enemies are weak, and a mad rush to the throne skips more than half of the map, anyway. hector also has a pretty rough time defeating kaim even at 20/1, so you're probably better off using someone else.

chapter 31 is defense map; doesn't matter. rest of the game also basically doesn't matter because hector is doing just about nothing aside from maybe trying to kill darin. armads doesn't matter because athos kills dragon faster.

hector is only any good at all because you have to use him. if you didn't have to use him, hector kind of blows. he wouldn't be terrible like eliwood, but there'd be about zero reason to deploy him once you're less than halfway through the game.

Edited February 9, 2014 by dondon151

[Tamanoir]

of course you'd be wrong in that case. it has meaningful insight (i.e., not spam) and it merely expresses disagreement (i.e., not "trying to make everyone feel bad").

hector gets almost nothing at all from chapter 30. the enemies are weak, and a mad rush to the throne skips more than half of the map, anyway. hector also has a pretty rough time defeating kaim even at 20/1, so you're probably better off using someone else.

chapter 31 is defense map; doesn't matter. rest of the game also basically doesn't matter because hector is doing just about nothing aside from maybe trying to kill darin. armads doesn't matter because athos kills dragon faster.

hector is only any good at all because you have to use him. if you didn't have to use him, hector kind of blows. he wouldn't be terrible like eliwood, but there'd be about zero reason to deploy him once you're less than halfway through the game.

Well... You only have to use him on Hector Mode.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Totally Radical Judge

[Chiki]

Hector with a horsie might've been the best unit in the game, behind Marcus.

[Narga_Rocks]

of course you'd be wrong in that case. it has meaningful insight (i.e., not spam) and it merely expresses disagreement (i.e., not "trying to make everyone feel bad").

First, it's spam because you don't go into detail. You just say "oh it's from 2009". Second, it's "trying to make everyon feel bad" because rather than describe what they are doing wrong you are needlessly accusing them of never growing as people/arguers. You are also wrong, but that's beside the point.

So yeah, you spammed and insulted people and you feel no guilt whatsoever. You claim to know when you make mistakes, but you seem to have an "I'm perfect" complex not just when it comes to FE but also apparently arguing.

Here's a thought, when you want to express disagreement, try to do it without snarky one-liners that are, by SF's definition at least, spam. If you aren't going to meaningfully contribute, as in state what is wrong and why, then how about, as RF said, don't post here?

Also, you claimed we "forced you to waste your time". We didn't. You forced yourself to waste your time. Did you admit you were wrong when RF pointed it out? No. Going back to what she said about your inability to admit you are wrong, at least on SF. But don't feel bad, you are in lovely company with certain people who also can't admit when they are wrong. Of course, you seem to dislike those three I'm thinking of, so maybe you don't like it. Too bad, it's true.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

First, it's spam because you don't go into detail. You just say "oh it's from 2009".

when i don't go into detail, it's spam. when i do go into detail, i'm told that i need to be more humble, less elitist, etc. and i'm written off as factually wrong when you can in fact go back to threads in 2009 and see that there are exactly these sorts of arguments being made. (it's also a huge waste of time on my part.)

Second, it's "trying to make everyon feel bad" because rather than describe what they are doing wrong you are needlessly accusing them of never growing as people/arguers.

here's what they were doing wrong: using arguments from 2009.

i shouldn't have to point this out, but both you and red fox are very guilty of being pots calling the kettle black.

Well... You only have to use him on Hector Mode.

you still sort of have to use him on eliwood mode because he joins early with little competition.

Hector with a horsie might've been the best unit in the game, behind Marcus.

he might have even been better than marcus. it's like sigurd vs. seth: sigurd is self-sufficient, but seth's limiting factor is eirika.

Edited February 9, 2014 by dondon151

[bottlegnomes]

Hector on a horse would be interesting. Also, that poor horse.

[Narga_Rocks]

when i don't go into detail, it's spam. when i do go into detail, i'm told that i need to be more humble, less elitist, etc. and i'm written off as factually wrong when you can in fact go back to threads in 2009 and see that there are exactly these sorts of arguments being made. (it's also a huge waste of time on my part.)

here's what they were doing wrong: using arguments from 2009.

You know what's a huge waste of time on your part? Doing things you've stated are wastes of time. Why do you, then?

When anyone doesn't go into detail, it's often spam. Yes, I consider "you are all wrong" to be spam if people don't give more detail than "you are wrong because it's like 2009 here". When you go into detail, you act like an arrogant prick. Hence, be more humble, less elitist. It's not that no matter what you are wrong, as you seem to be suggesting. It's that the way you go about yourself, whether short posts or long, is arrogant prick. And not every argument from 2009 is bad, so why not state which part was bad? Oh, because it'd be a "waste of time". If all you have is spam, don't do it. If you don't feel you have time to point out bad facts or whatever, don't make the one-liners. Throw a stink-bomb or make a real post or don't post? The first one is not a legit option.

Anyway, Tang might be upset we are making this public, so I leave it up to you. You can PM RF and me and keep up the argument, or you can reply here, or you can do the smart thing RF suggested and drop it. If you want to continue to publicly air your dirty laundry, I'm all for it.

edit: oh, and dumping all resources into one character isn't 2009, it's more like 2010 or 11. 2009 and before was "oh we can't give Lyn anything because what if we give Florina to some excruciatingly slow support."

Edited February 9, 2014 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

You know what's a huge waste of time on your part? Doing things you've stated are wastes of time. Why do you, then?

i don't know, dude. i'm sure that this is also a huge waste of your time. why are you doing this, then?

Anyway, Tang might be upset we are making this public, so I leave it up to you. You can PM RF and me and keep up the argument, or you can reply here, or you can do the smart thing RF suggested and drop it. If you want to continue to publicly air your dirty laundry, I'm all for it.

thanks for the invitation to continue derailing this thread! is this part of a moderator's job?

edit: oh, and dumping all resources into one character isn't 2009, it's more like 2010 or 11. 2009 and before was "oh we can't give Lyn anything because what if we give Florina to some excruciatingly slow support."

i never said that dumping all resources into one character was 2009. dumping resources into bad characters was 2009.

Edited February 9, 2014 by dondon151

[Dandragon]

May I ask a question?

Whatever happened to just using characters you like and just leaving it at that?

[Integrity]

I think literally nobody ever admitted to doing that.

[dondon151]

May I ask a question?

Whatever happened to just using characters you like and just leaving it at that?

that's fine, but in a comparative discussion, this isn't very useful. imagine if someone asked you whether kale or spinach had more iron per serving and your response was that you just eat the vegetables that you like.

Edited February 9, 2014 by dondon151

[Dandragon]

that's fine, but in a comparative discussion, this isn't very useful. imagine if someone asked you whether kale or spinach had more iron per serving and your response was that you just eat the vegetables that you like.

You miss my point. Why do we need to compare them? Why does there need to be a discussion about it? Why?

[Florete]

You miss my point. Why do we need to compare them? Why does there need to be a discussion about it? Why?

Why do you need to ask why we discuss it? You don't, but you're doing it anyway.

As human beings, we don't need to do anything except eat, sleep, and poop (keeping it simple, here). Anything else just enhances the experience of our 80 years on this planet. For some, that includes discussing the merits of fictional video game characters on an online message board.

So stop asking please. This thread has been derailed enough. It doesn't need yet another random tangent to go off on.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I think literally nobody ever admitted to doing that.

I actually did. I "overrate" Hector cuz i like him.